Unclassified Class Category

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Last Post 06 May 2023

Standard Member

shootcast posted this 22 March 2023

Off and on over the years there has been discussions or interest in firearm categories other than in use now. This for interested new shooters wishing to start in a shooting program. The CBA invites all shooters whether you are a member or possibly thinking about becoming a member. Also it is know that many people have to drive quite a distance to attend a match/ shoot at a existing club. There fore if you belong to a sport mans club or have access to a range you can start your own chapter and the CBA will help you with the process. It’s not complicated . Many people own firearms that we seldom see in a Benchrest match. Some but certainly not all would include lever, pump, auto and Break Open designs. It is difficult to have a class for every imaginable firearm. This is part of the reason we don’t see all types of firearms. The CBA has always had a category for unclassified arms. We haven’t advertised it to it’s fullest potential in my opinion. So my question to the readers of this thread is to gain interest among the non shooters out there. Unclassified category would enable anyone to bring there firearm that doesn’t fit into one of our present classes or your just not ready to get that competitive yet. This class would be a local only event. Meaning that there’s no National Tournament involved. You get a chance to shoot one of your favorite arms with others and experience the fun . You’ll also see what others are doing with arms such as your shooting. The results can be posted both on the web site and in the Fouling Shot. You’ll meet others that are eager to help or advise and one day you may decide to shoot in one of our present classes as well. Tell us your thoughts. What would you be interested in doing.

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Lucky1 posted this 06 May 2023

I'm going to agree with Tom on this one. Many of us cast our own bullets and tend to look at this hobby from that perspective. That is not the only entry point to cast bullet shooting and Missouri and Lazer Cast have to be selling to someone. So if they can come to a match, have fun with purchased bullets from whatever source, they will eventually grow into other areas of interest.
My own experience mirrors this to a degree. I came to the CBA because a friend told me about it and encouraged me to try. I had several decades of casting but they were pure lead RB for my frontstuffers. So I got some 30 cal molds and eventually went to a match. Results were disappointing for the first match but the shooters worked at getting me through and I had fun in spite of the frustration. So I learned about molds, alloys and lubes and powders, oh my. The military matches morphed into the modern ones too and yes, I'm still perplexed and frustrated some days but I intend to keep having fun with the other shooters help.

Scott Ingle

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 06 May 2023

All of us have different experiences. One of mine was different regarding recruiting. Long ago at the annual March gun show (2009?), a guy carrying a Shiloh Sharps Model 74, of course with iron sights, chambered in 45-70. This was when our CBA table (mistakenly) focused on the matches. He (Lloyd) asked me….can I shoot this in your matches?”. I said sure and he showed up. He lives 85-miles away.For a couple of years he shot jacketed bullets. Then he started buying cast bullets. He WAS NOT a caster at the outset.

Eventually he migrated to a Military rifle and then a Hunter category rifle. He goes back and forth between the two today. Eventually he took up casting to help him expand his load development work for several rifles.

In closing….take anyone you can get, the shooter does not have to be caster. Work with him, coach him, and eventually he might move up to our level of guns and ammo.

FWIW

Tom

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 05 May 2023

Several match directors replied to me instead of this thread as suggested. I thought this one by Dan Walliser made some good points.

John

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From Dan Walliser - Arizona Cast Bullet Shooters

Recruiting is obviously the key to our survival as a shooting discipline. However, I think the focus on finding a niche for shooters with "non-traditional" rifles misses the point entirely. In 20 years of shooting cast bullet benchrest at Ben Avery, we have NEVER recruited a shooter who wasn't already a bullet caster. Conversely, we have NEVER convinced a shooter to take up bullet casting so that he could shoot with us. Bullet casters are already shooters and already have almost everything they need to start casting rifle bullets - all they need is a mold and a lubrisizer die. Most of us would gladly lend a new recruit a mold and die to get started - we actually do that frequently. Our most successful recruiting efforts have been word-of-mouth and personal contacts with pistol shooters who reload, Schuetzen shooters, BPCR types and hunters who have a preference for cast lead bullets. Many of our shooters are former High Power shooters who are too old to shoot prone and other positions. Buying a used 700 Varmint or heavy-barreled Savage is something most serious people will do. Recruiting from other shooting disciplines may not be very original or creative, but it is the only effort that has produced any positive results over a 20 year period. Dan Walliser - Match Director, Arizona Cast Bullet Shooters

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shootcast posted this 05 May 2023

If we are trying to generate interest in new shooters shooting firearms that aren’t usually shot in our shoulder to shoulder matches than it does matter what targets are used.Does no good to post results hoping others from other areas see these results and decide to shoot there like firearm. As and example have you ever seen someone show up with a lever action deer rifle . We don’t have a class for this firearm . If unclassified is standardized to a target system then maybe others with lever guns will shoot here. Shooters from all over can see results with like firearms. These shooters may just enjoy this enough to begin shooting the red targets in and established class.

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CBA Member

ten-mile posted this 05 May 2023

So far at the Blue Hills matches new shooters have a rifle that fits into an existing class. We have furnished bullets and sometimes a rifle and loaded ammunition. I have no problem with using the TQ-4 but I think muley has the best solution. Use the orange targets or MR-31s. We all have them.

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CBA Member

muley posted this 05 May 2023

after all of the discussion, let the match directors ask the unclassified shooter which target they prefer. they are not shooting records or up for medals, so the target would not matter.

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shootcast posted this 05 May 2023

My suggestion of using the present military targets works well for both open sights and scoped firearms. I believe that only the center bull of the 200 yard MR 52 should be put up at 200 yards. I have learned that some clubs shooting military are already doing this. The TQ-4 would be difficult to hit at 200 yards open sights for most people. Also many clubs don’t shoot 200 yards. For unclassified to have any meaning all clubs have to be doing the same thing.

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 05 May 2023

A few comments about the targets to use for Unclassified rifles @ CBA matches.
TQ-4 The CBA Postal program has used this one for years. Example….iron sights for the Single Shot Postal. It is shot @ 100-yards. Off the bench for score and group and also offhand. In LRH this is the offhand target. MR-31 (Hope I got the number correct) The CBA 100-yard Military target, iron and scoped sights. At our (4) local clubs, we use this target for any Unclassified shooters that we have. General comments… Unclassified will be iron sights only. Scoped rifles will be slotted into any of the other CBA categories that the gun will fit…unless he is using jacketed bullets. Most clubs have the MR-31 in their inventory, they usually don’t have the TQ-4. Bull diameters… TQ-4 7 7/8” MR-31 5 5/8” For iron sights, the larger bull might be better. Keep in mind…. Unclassified is NOT a CBA recognized match gun category, so no National Records. Clubs offer this as a recruiting attempt and a courtesy to new shooters, so the need to require clubs to all use the same targets should not be a requirement. It should be up to the Match Director. If it is our desire to have Unclassified shooters compare their results to others around the country, as seen in the Fouling Shot, we are misleading ourselves. All of the guns will be different so no commonality exists to provide a comparison. At this past Monday’s match, we had an Unclassified shooter with iron sights and we used the MR-31 for him. And….he doesn’t care what category his rifle was defined to be in. Just wanted to shoot! However, there is a chance his rifle could be Military legal. John Carlson is looking into this for me. I think we can now include our Classified shooter info that we send to Paul Pollard, since the info can be included in the Fouling Shot. Tom

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 04 May 2023

That must have been the last word. The message is on its way.

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RicinYakima posted this 04 May 2023

I don't know that that is bad, for a new shooter.

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John Carlson posted this 04 May 2023

Military uses the MR31 at 100 yards and the MR52 at 200 yards. The TQ4 is used for offhand. While it could provide a uniform reporting tool there will likely be a lot of 10-X targets shot.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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Lucky1 posted this 03 May 2023

Thanks John. That seems to meet the 2 goals of encouraging more participants and standardizing the target/format.

Scott Ingle

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 03 May 2023

OK, I perhaps stupidly, offered to send a message to Match Directors because I have a contact list handy. I have tried to draft such a message. Is this what you want sent to MD. If not, write the message you want sent and let me know.

John

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"To Match Directors;

There is an ongoing discussion on the CBA Forum titled "Unclassified Class Category", the participants have included three CBA match directors, a couple of board members and several active CBA shooters. The participants seemed to agree about two things and have asked me to send this message to CBA Match Directors. (I have an email contact list of MDs)

1. The unclassified category could be used effectively to recruit more CBA shooters and Match Directors should invite local shooters to participate in local matches with whatever kind of rifle and ammunition they would like to shoot as unclassified shooters.

2. The consensus was that there would be advantages if all unclassified shooters used the TQ4 (military) target.

Please read and comment the thread on the forum for a better understanding of the issue."

John

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Lucky1 posted this 03 May 2023

TQ4 it is.

Scott Ingle

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shootcast posted this 02 May 2023

If unclassified shooters decide to shoot the red target it creates another problem. It would have to be noted as which target the score was shot on. That’s why I feel everyone should be doing the same thing.

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Lucky1 posted this 02 May 2023

My feeling is make the TQ4 standard for unclassified and if an unclassified shooter with a scoped rifle wants to shoot 5 bull targets, let them because no records are at stake. And there is certainly no advantage to shooting at a x that is a dot vs one that is an inch across. But there is a serious disadvantage to shooting the orange target with metallic sights. (Soul crushing frustration comes to mind) And maybe this is for naught but if a few more dip their toe in, it is a start for participation.

Scott Ingle

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shootcast posted this 02 May 2023

If a shooter wants to shoot on the red Conventional target he/ she is placed in the closest class per our rules now. That varmint rifle possibly could be hunter, production or heavy by our rules. If it’s a new shooter it’s possible they haven’t joined the CBA yet. Would make more sense to me that they shoot unclassified target system. They are not eligible to set records unless they are members. When there ready for a more competitive program they certainly would want to join. Hopefully before.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 02 May 2023

What about the possible unclassified shooter who has a scoped rifle, maybe a varmint rifle with a 8-24X scope and would rather shoot the red CBA targets. The overwhelming number of shooters have scopes. Seldom see a metallic sight on a rifle. Maybe in ten.

Is there a need for all unclassified shooters everywhere to shoot the same target. Sorry to be dense.

Glad to send a message to all Match Directors just want to be sure about the message and I will send it whether I understand it or not.

John.

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Lucky1 posted this 01 May 2023

I think a rule update to use TQ4 would be good just to make sure we're all on the same page. There has been more than one match where we have pulled up the rules to make sure it was done right. And then if anyone doesn't get the word the shooter has the rules available to clarify it. I don't expect a stampede to unclassified but anything to help people participate. Several shooters at the last Hawkeye match had a positive impression of this change because they had modern iron sighted rifles that they would love to use on a black and not orange bull. This has been a good discussion overall.

Scott Ingle

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shootcast posted this 01 May 2023

I think a verbal commitment would be a good start. John, if you reach out to all club directors and can get everyone doing the same thing we can test the water. If there are any suggestions that others have that might work we can try a few things before jumping into a rule change. If any of this helps to get new shooters we will have a better idea of a rule change. If no one participates ( new shooters ) then no bother to change anything.

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