Unclassified Class Category

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Last Post 06 May 2023

Standard Member

shootcast posted this 22 March 2023

Off and on over the years there has been discussions or interest in firearm categories other than in use now. This for interested new shooters wishing to start in a shooting program. The CBA invites all shooters whether you are a member or possibly thinking about becoming a member. Also it is know that many people have to drive quite a distance to attend a match/ shoot at a existing club. There fore if you belong to a sport mans club or have access to a range you can start your own chapter and the CBA will help you with the process. It’s not complicated . Many people own firearms that we seldom see in a Benchrest match. Some but certainly not all would include lever, pump, auto and Break Open designs. It is difficult to have a class for every imaginable firearm. This is part of the reason we don’t see all types of firearms. The CBA has always had a category for unclassified arms. We haven’t advertised it to it’s fullest potential in my opinion. So my question to the readers of this thread is to gain interest among the non shooters out there. Unclassified category would enable anyone to bring there firearm that doesn’t fit into one of our present classes or your just not ready to get that competitive yet. This class would be a local only event. Meaning that there’s no National Tournament involved. You get a chance to shoot one of your favorite arms with others and experience the fun . You’ll also see what others are doing with arms such as your shooting. The results can be posted both on the web site and in the Fouling Shot. You’ll meet others that are eager to help or advise and one day you may decide to shoot in one of our present classes as well. Tell us your thoughts. What would you be interested in doing.

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Fitzpatrick posted this 22 March 2023

I think that would be enjoyable and let us meet other like minded people . I live in central Oklahoma and could travel anywhere in the state.

James Fitzpatrick

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.22-10-45 posted this 24 March 2023

How about having this class in a postal match? The British Rook &Rabbit rifles come to mind..say 50 to 100yds field positions including cross sticks? at rabbit & crow silhouettes.

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John Alexander posted this 24 March 2023

I hope that 22-10-45 post will stir up conversation on this issue. But since Dave is mostly interested in using Unclassified Class to increase participation in local matches, I have transported 22-10-45 post to a new thread to avoiding diluting Dave's thread.

John

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Fitzpatrick posted this 24 March 2023

Not sure what a British Rook& Rabbit rifle is but if I have one count me in, maybe someone here could give me a education .

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2023

The rook rifle, originally called the rook and rabbit rifle, is an obsolete English single-shot small calibre rifle intended for shooting small game, particularly rook shooting.

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bullshop posted this 31 March 2023

You are spurring me on. Because where I live we have so much open public land to shoot on I have never gone to the most local range in Dillon 50 miles distant. I am now thinking if not me then who should look into use of the Dillon range for this purpose and advertise locally to gauge interest. This is gun country I live in but due I guess to societal dogma placed on guns by the population centers that have different standards and needs it seems like our youth are turning from any firearms related recreational activities.

Dillon is a liberal college town but the local gun shop owner has told me these past two years his business has increased in selling arms to the formerly anti gun liberals.

Maybe having a fun event could help turn things around ! I am thinking a come as you are format that has loner guns available for anyone that might like to have a go at it could be a big help in generating interest with non gun owners. My mind is racing here on the possibilities!

Still it comes down to if not me then who ? I better get cracking !

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bullshop posted this 22 April 2023

So I may be understanding this all wrong but the picture I so far have is that an unclassified match is about the same as an unlimited match where the rule is anything goes. Is that a correct assumption ? If so by my thinking that would discourage most shooters from competing against the top end guns that will always dominate. It turns into another most expensive rifles always win match. Who would want to pit their Stevens model 44 in 32-20 with factory iron sights against a custom built heavy bench rifle topped off with a high powered Night force scope? The outcome will always be predictably the same. Dont sound like fun to me.

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shootcast posted this 22 April 2023

The CBA has several classes of firearms. However there are many firearms that don’t fit into any of them. The old saying is you can shoot that in so and so class. The idea is you can go up in class but not down. Many actual hunting arms don’t even fit into hunting class. If they did there would be many people competing with them. So unclassified is kind of a place to shoot. You are right that it’s a domestic arms race. We still in my opinion don’t have a basic starting class.

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John Carlson posted this 22 April 2023

So I may be understanding this all wrong but the picture I so far have is that an unclassified match is about the same as an unlimited match where the rule is anything goes. Is that a correct assumption ?

Not exactly. Each match is open to multiple classes, generally all benchrest classes or all military classes. Often to both. When you show up with a gun that doesn't fit any of the classes you are welcome to shoot in the unclassified category in which case you are not actually competing with anybody.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 April 2023

a competitive event isn't just to glorify the winner and cast a withering shame on 2nd place down ...

it is also to find out how good you are ... actually the system of you and your equipment ... and luck .....

if you LIKE to win you are a sterling example of the best of God's work ... if you finish 23rd, you work on ways to move up to 19th next time or the time after that ... ... after all, improvement is a rewarding form of mini-winning ...

if you HAVE to win you are probably psychotic ...

************************

in my 40 years of racing toy cars on a very serious level .... I noticed that the guys having the most fun were rarely in the top ten percent ... hmmmmmm ...

ken the observer

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John Alexander posted this 23 April 2023

John has it right, it is a mechanism to allow folks who might be interested in shooting in matches try it out with whatever they would like to bring. This includes shooting cast or jacketed bullets, or even rimfire. It allows match directors, who have unfilled benches, and most do, to say come on in and shoot with us on Saturday, maybe you will like it. They are not competing with anyone so don't have to worry about looking bad. We hope some of them will enjoy the experience and want to go further.

We enjoy getting together with friends and shooting a match and think others might too, if they would give it a try.

John

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shootcast posted this 23 April 2023

With unclassified firearms, the ones that don’t fit into any particular class well you compete against yourself. By posting the results hopefully others might see this and shoot there firearm that is like your firearm. Or if your lucky enough to have a friend to coax into shooting the same firearm as you are then you compete with each other. It’s not a winning thing exactly. It’s nice to see how you do with a particular firearm as compared to others. Maybe a way to generate interest would be to use the forum to organize such an event. We might pull enough shooters once or twice a year to shoot such firearms. I enjoy shooting all my firearms but why shoot alone ?

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bullshop posted this 23 April 2023

"""if you HAVE to win you are probably psychotic ..."""

Maybe true but if I am going to foot the bill for my effort I would like to at least have an idea that how ever remote the possibility I might win. That is what I understand competition to be.

""I enjoy shooting all my firearms but why shoot alone ?""

But basically as it has been stated above if shooting unclassified you are shooting alone only there are other people around. Why join a crowd to shoot in a class of one.

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Lucky1 posted this 23 April 2023

It doesn't even have to be unclassified to have this happen. It's not uncommon to show up to my local military match with a dozen shooters and be the only big bore competitor. I have never thought even once of turning around and going home. There is the social aspect of competition that includes people giving me crap about anything "better than a 3 is a good big bore target " to seeing if i can outdo some of the Issue small bore shooters too. (Which has happened) Shooting under competition conditions always teaches me something new and helps my gamesmanship improve compared to just shooting by myself at the home range. I can go so far as to show up with an 1889 Danish Krag converted to 45-70 and sporting mod iron sights; and know I'll be the only one with something that weirdly Unclassified but it'll still be fun and create a lot of discussion on the line. Granted, I occasionally talk to myself and have some titillating discussions but it still better having friends instead. So now I'm going out to test some loads for next weeks match and get ready for Milnats.

Scott Ingle

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John Alexander posted this 23 April 2023

Bullshop,

OK, we get it you are not interested in trying competition to see if you enjoy it.

Sounds like you are a candidate for joining the CBA and entering our matches as a competitor. All our match directors welcome additional competitors, and our postal matches allow competition no matter where you live.

You might want to look at our Hunting Rifle or Production classes. Almost any good production hunting rifle under 9.5 pounds with scope can be competitive in HR unless it has a custom barrel. Most any factor varmint weight rifle could be competitive in Production class. Very little opportunity to gain advantage via equipment.

I like to shoot in HR and shoot an unmodified six pound rifle that cost under $700 and am sometimes competitive. What's not to like?

John

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bullshop posted this 24 April 2023

I have been looking into postal matches with CBA but it always seems my rifles dont fit any thing other than unclassified.. For instance I have a really nice Trapdoor but the front sight is not original. I also have a really nice Krag rifle but the rear sight is not original. I dont want to be a cheater and break the rules. It always seems that when I find one of the postal matches that sounds like something I would like my rifles are limited to unclassified. where as has been described there is really no competitive shooting. I just cant motivate myself to travel to shoot in a class where I am the only competitor when that is pretty much what I am doing at home. As for doing it for the companionship maybe it sounds snobbish but to be honest I prefer my own company to others.. I guess old habits are hard to break .

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Lucky1 posted this 24 April 2023

Bullshop You are allowed to alter your front sight on a trapdoor as long as it similar in profile. ie a blade and not a globe sight. As long as the rear sight is one of the original Krag sights, very few will care since Krags have been messed with a lot for the last 130 years. And if the Krag has a more modern Lyman etc, use it as a mod iron instead. There are definitely classes in the Postals that fit those if you don't want to travel to a match and prefer to shoot on your own.

Scott Ingle

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shootcast posted this 24 April 2023

Showing up at a match and being the only shooter in your class isn’t a bad thing. As long as there is a class for it. The results get posted and other shooters who do shoot that particular class see what others are doing. With unclassified and even Postal competition you don’t even know if anyone anywhere is going to shoot at anytime. That’s why organizing unclassified makes sense.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 April 2023

WELL, since we are discussing UNCLASSIFIED >> ..

note:: not wanting to change a thing re: our competition rules for CBA shooting .

the following is merely a thought experiment to perhaps shed light on the ephemeral logic of having competitions where all results would be manipulated to be equal.

I believe this would lead to the bizarre circumstance that the contestants would arrive home before they even left for the shoot.

*********************

in my wasted life as a toy car racer, we developed a competition system that became the standard in the USA ... we raced " heads up " at any given meet. we named it the " Heart of America " system.

we ran heads up ... no previous classification for driver's ability ... we qualified at that match according to how you and your equipment were doing at that match.

transposed to shoots, we would shoot as many qualifier shoots as we had time for. big matches might be 2 or more days, 2 to 5 qualifier matches. we use your very best match as your qualifier, and then break the final matches into groups of 10 ( or according to entry ) ... shooters. in YOUR FINAL for the week, you only compete against 9 other shooters who were doing about as well as you were at the time ... National champs with $3000 custom rifles against deer rifles if that is how you were shooting.

qualifier scores don't count in the Final .. for trophies . so all the pressure and agony and terror of competition are still present in your final. still sudden miracles ... or sudden death ... no excuses .. only performance NOW ...

******************

this system at first was met with a lot of skepticism .. however, it was quickly made the standard in the USA .. and lasted at least 40 years.

as you are digesting this post, I know you are thinking of reasons this wouldn't work. but it did, and please consider these weighty perks .>>>

******************

tech-in is about one minute ... or none ... more time for shooting and BS. you can beg the match director to put you into a seperate qualifier than your wife ... heh ... no one cares. if the TV news shows up you could put some probable top shooters together for the " humanity " factor.

it was commonly done that after every qualifier round the groups were resorted ... at least after computer scoring came on the scene ... part of the sub-plotting ... you were moving up ... or down ... but only your best match determined your final match ... then trophy or not ...

even the lowest qualifier match gets the interest and attention of the other 90 ( or 22 ) shooters ... only 10 ( 4 ?) are shooting for trophies and everybody is watching them ... their time in the sun, and they have excited fans in the spectator gallery just as will the top aces for the week-end in the later matches ...

i might mention that in 40 years i never saw ONE top "shooter" sandbag into a lower match just to win a trophy ... but i did see a lot of kids starting out that won a trophy in a lower match first time out ... with 90 other competitors cheering them at the trophy presentations . Shooter for life ?? ... think about it.

********************

again, this is not a proposal for ANY rule changes ... there is great value in the history ... and nostalgia ... of current rules ... in fact, hopefully the above dribble will reinforce the validity of our carefully developed current rules and customs.

ken the observitator

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shootcast posted this 26 April 2023

I believe this would lead to the bizarre circumstance that the contestants would arrive home before they even left for the shoot.

National Champs with $3000 custom rifles against deer rifles if that is how you were shooting.

The CBA has a point system to determine the Grand Champion. $3000 is minimal for a custom rifle today. But we do have competitors spending nearly that much for a scope in hunter class.

Standardizing the targets and time frame for unclassified would be a beginning.

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Tom Acheson posted this 26 April 2023

Guess this one is too hard to resist responding to.

My main CBA match gun category is LRH (Long Range Handgun). I think I’ve been to (4) National Tournaments, where I entered the LRH category (I’ve entered Production twice), and only two of those matches had another entrant in LRH besides me. So I drove (800) miles to KC knowing ahead of time I’d be shooting alone in the LRH category. The convoluted point system in play @ the NT is a guarantee that no matter how well a LRH entrant does, he/she will NEVER be the Grand National Pooba. To me there is a lot more to a NT than the actual shooting. Seeing old friends, looking @ the other guns and accessories, socializing….and the hamburgers! Feeding my ego, telling myself I’m “the best”, is worthless. Don’t care, not important. Others will disagree. I just enjoy the overall match experience and the shooting is a side benefit.

Before you write this callous attitude off, take a look @ the CBA LRH National Records. It is possible to have a standout day shooting, every now and then.

For me my competition is myself. I’m always trying different loads, bench set up, technique, etc. with the desire to improve over what I did in previous attempts. If there is another LRH shooter, all the better. I often learn from the other shooter(s) something useful to me.

When the dust settles, when you “win” what have you won? And…who will remember your glorious accomplishment 2-weeks later?

Now down off the soapbox.

Tom

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Lucky1 posted this 26 April 2023

Tom, I agree 98% with your post. I agree that the hamburgers are good, but the Friday Fish Fry is tops. My wife doesn't particularly like fish but anticipates this every year.

Scott Ingle

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JimmyDee posted this 27 April 2023

...in 40 years i never saw ONE top "shooter" sandbag into a lower match just to win a trophy

Sadly, I saw that frequently in IPSC matches. Maybe not top shooters, perhaps, but plenty of A and B shooters. Just another way to game the rules, I suppose.

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RicinYakima posted this 27 April 2023

After one season of the new "pistol" games in the 1980's, I never shot them again. Just can't see playing games to win points instead of trying your best. Same thing happened with BR 50 when 22 LR shooters would shoot 48 rounds and then quit if they weren't winning. Then the match didn't count for their year record.

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Tom Acheson posted this 27 April 2023

I know Dave has a huge relentless passion for trying to get new people to try shooting in a match. The recognized CBA match gun categories are limited from the perspective of a new shooter. Sometimes its the presence of rules that intimidates people, not so much the actual match.

Not wanting to hijack Dave’s thread but Lucky, what is the fish used in the fish fry @ the NT? I’m guessing catfish. By the way, Dave has grilled venison burgers at some of his matches, which go over big!

Tom

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Lucky1 posted this 27 April 2023

I think it's perch that the cook had personally caught. Definitely not catfish but the way he does it would probably be really good. Hmm...venison burgers.

Scott Ingle

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 April 2023

jimmiedee; re: sandbagging to get a plastic trophy ..

i did know one middle good guy who sandbagged repeatedly to win an easier race/match ...

after about the 6th time he did this somebody broke into his car and stole all his equipment ... he quit the sport after that ...

i always thought he got off lucky ...

ken

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rhbrink posted this 28 April 2023

I think it's perch that the cook had personally caught. Definitely not catfish but the way he does it would probably be really good. Hmm...venison burgers.

Crappie

I've been following this thread and something that I tell anyone that is interested in shooting one of our matches is that if you don't have a gun that fits one of the classes we will create a new one just for you! Not many takers on that one though, lots of talkers but not many doers!

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Lucky1 posted this 28 April 2023

Back to more serious thoughts.... I don't think we can really standardize targets for unclassified shooters with an example (and personal experience). I thought about this being the guy with a 1894 30-30 and iron sights showing up, (or some other metallic sight firearm) but he would technically be in Hunter class. He would also be extremely frustrated trying to shoot those orange 5 bull targets with iron sights. He might come back with something different or just be frustrated and never come back. I've tried it personally and can attest to the frustration but at least I was at my home range. In the Modern classes we really don't have anything suitable for metallic sight shooters like the Military classes do. So are we ignoring another bunch of shooters?

Scott Ingle

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rhbrink posted this 28 April 2023

Use military targets for the open sight guns.

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shootcast posted this 28 April 2023

My suggestion was to use the military targets for all unclassified shooters.Iron sight and scope. Remember these competitors aren’t setting National Tournament Records. The competitors paperwork separates iron from scope. This is a class more for the firearms we don’t see in shoulder to shoulder competition of the red conventional targets. We are trying to get new shooters interested in our program. Some hopefully will at some point switch into one of our present classes. When they do they shoot the red Conventional target. Sand baggers aren’t really winning by shooting a unlimited class rifle for example. They maybe a winner in unclassified but has nothing to do with our present category. We can still list results and possibly quarterly do a write up for the Fouling Shot showing the combined shooters, scores and so forth. As more people see this we might get lucky and get more new shooters.

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RicinYakima posted this 29 April 2023

Most excellent idea! I have rifle I would like to shoot, but don't meet any requirement. Like a 1917 Newton in 30/06 with iron sights and never going to be drilled and tapped. Shooting the TQ4 military target will get you more shooters!

The other thought is all the folks with AR's to shoot iron/scope/electron sights on the big target, so they can hit on the paper.

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Lucky1 posted this 30 April 2023

It seems like a rules change/clarification would be in order so this gets standardized so all the match directors can be on the same page.

Scott Ingle

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shootcast posted this 30 April 2023

Yes a rule change would be in order. Part of the the reason for this thread was to see if anyone out there was remotely interested. Hopefully the board will be willing to discuss this and move forward. There might be some other ideas or suggestions that might help improve this. I believe there are shooters somewhere that might be willing to attend matches if there was place for there particular firearm. Not everyone is interested in National Tournament shooting . This doesn’t interfere the present program and allows more variety of arms.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 01 May 2023

Dave, Scott, et al,

Is the need for a rule change just to say that all unclassified shooters must shoot on the TQ4 targets or something more?

John

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shootcast posted this 01 May 2023

I think a verbal commitment would be a good start. John, if you reach out to all club directors and can get everyone doing the same thing we can test the water. If there are any suggestions that others have that might work we can try a few things before jumping into a rule change. If any of this helps to get new shooters we will have a better idea of a rule change. If no one participates ( new shooters ) then no bother to change anything.

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Lucky1 posted this 01 May 2023

I think a rule update to use TQ4 would be good just to make sure we're all on the same page. There has been more than one match where we have pulled up the rules to make sure it was done right. And then if anyone doesn't get the word the shooter has the rules available to clarify it. I don't expect a stampede to unclassified but anything to help people participate. Several shooters at the last Hawkeye match had a positive impression of this change because they had modern iron sighted rifles that they would love to use on a black and not orange bull. This has been a good discussion overall.

Scott Ingle

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 02 May 2023

What about the possible unclassified shooter who has a scoped rifle, maybe a varmint rifle with a 8-24X scope and would rather shoot the red CBA targets. The overwhelming number of shooters have scopes. Seldom see a metallic sight on a rifle. Maybe in ten.

Is there a need for all unclassified shooters everywhere to shoot the same target. Sorry to be dense.

Glad to send a message to all Match Directors just want to be sure about the message and I will send it whether I understand it or not.

John.

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shootcast posted this 02 May 2023

If a shooter wants to shoot on the red Conventional target he/ she is placed in the closest class per our rules now. That varmint rifle possibly could be hunter, production or heavy by our rules. If it’s a new shooter it’s possible they haven’t joined the CBA yet. Would make more sense to me that they shoot unclassified target system. They are not eligible to set records unless they are members. When there ready for a more competitive program they certainly would want to join. Hopefully before.

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Lucky1 posted this 02 May 2023

My feeling is make the TQ4 standard for unclassified and if an unclassified shooter with a scoped rifle wants to shoot 5 bull targets, let them because no records are at stake. And there is certainly no advantage to shooting at a x that is a dot vs one that is an inch across. But there is a serious disadvantage to shooting the orange target with metallic sights. (Soul crushing frustration comes to mind) And maybe this is for naught but if a few more dip their toe in, it is a start for participation.

Scott Ingle

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shootcast posted this 02 May 2023

If unclassified shooters decide to shoot the red target it creates another problem. It would have to be noted as which target the score was shot on. That’s why I feel everyone should be doing the same thing.

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Lucky1 posted this 03 May 2023

TQ4 it is.

Scott Ingle

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John Alexander posted this 03 May 2023

OK, I perhaps stupidly, offered to send a message to Match Directors because I have a contact list handy. I have tried to draft such a message. Is this what you want sent to MD. If not, write the message you want sent and let me know.

John

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"To Match Directors;

There is an ongoing discussion on the CBA Forum titled "Unclassified Class Category", the participants have included three CBA match directors, a couple of board members and several active CBA shooters. The participants seemed to agree about two things and have asked me to send this message to CBA Match Directors. (I have an email contact list of MDs)

1. The unclassified category could be used effectively to recruit more CBA shooters and Match Directors should invite local shooters to participate in local matches with whatever kind of rifle and ammunition they would like to shoot as unclassified shooters.

2. The consensus was that there would be advantages if all unclassified shooters used the TQ4 (military) target.

Please read and comment the thread on the forum for a better understanding of the issue."

John

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Lucky1 posted this 03 May 2023

Thanks John. That seems to meet the 2 goals of encouraging more participants and standardizing the target/format.

Scott Ingle

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John Carlson posted this 04 May 2023

Military uses the MR31 at 100 yards and the MR52 at 200 yards. The TQ4 is used for offhand. While it could provide a uniform reporting tool there will likely be a lot of 10-X targets shot.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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RicinYakima posted this 04 May 2023

I don't know that that is bad, for a new shooter.

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John Alexander posted this 04 May 2023

That must have been the last word. The message is on its way.

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Tom Acheson posted this 05 May 2023

A few comments about the targets to use for Unclassified rifles @ CBA matches.
TQ-4 The CBA Postal program has used this one for years. Example….iron sights for the Single Shot Postal. It is shot @ 100-yards. Off the bench for score and group and also offhand. In LRH this is the offhand target. MR-31 (Hope I got the number correct) The CBA 100-yard Military target, iron and scoped sights. At our (4) local clubs, we use this target for any Unclassified shooters that we have. General comments… Unclassified will be iron sights only. Scoped rifles will be slotted into any of the other CBA categories that the gun will fit…unless he is using jacketed bullets. Most clubs have the MR-31 in their inventory, they usually don’t have the TQ-4. Bull diameters… TQ-4 7 7/8” MR-31 5 5/8” For iron sights, the larger bull might be better. Keep in mind…. Unclassified is NOT a CBA recognized match gun category, so no National Records. Clubs offer this as a recruiting attempt and a courtesy to new shooters, so the need to require clubs to all use the same targets should not be a requirement. It should be up to the Match Director. If it is our desire to have Unclassified shooters compare their results to others around the country, as seen in the Fouling Shot, we are misleading ourselves. All of the guns will be different so no commonality exists to provide a comparison. At this past Monday’s match, we had an Unclassified shooter with iron sights and we used the MR-31 for him. And….he doesn’t care what category his rifle was defined to be in. Just wanted to shoot! However, there is a chance his rifle could be Military legal. John Carlson is looking into this for me. I think we can now include our Classified shooter info that we send to Paul Pollard, since the info can be included in the Fouling Shot. Tom

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shootcast posted this 05 May 2023

My suggestion of using the present military targets works well for both open sights and scoped firearms. I believe that only the center bull of the 200 yard MR 52 should be put up at 200 yards. I have learned that some clubs shooting military are already doing this. The TQ-4 would be difficult to hit at 200 yards open sights for most people. Also many clubs don’t shoot 200 yards. For unclassified to have any meaning all clubs have to be doing the same thing.

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muley posted this 05 May 2023

after all of the discussion, let the match directors ask the unclassified shooter which target they prefer. they are not shooting records or up for medals, so the target would not matter.

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ten-mile posted this 05 May 2023

So far at the Blue Hills matches new shooters have a rifle that fits into an existing class. We have furnished bullets and sometimes a rifle and loaded ammunition. I have no problem with using the TQ-4 but I think muley has the best solution. Use the orange targets or MR-31s. We all have them.

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shootcast posted this 05 May 2023

If we are trying to generate interest in new shooters shooting firearms that aren’t usually shot in our shoulder to shoulder matches than it does matter what targets are used.Does no good to post results hoping others from other areas see these results and decide to shoot there like firearm. As and example have you ever seen someone show up with a lever action deer rifle . We don’t have a class for this firearm . If unclassified is standardized to a target system then maybe others with lever guns will shoot here. Shooters from all over can see results with like firearms. These shooters may just enjoy this enough to begin shooting the red targets in and established class.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 05 May 2023

Several match directors replied to me instead of this thread as suggested. I thought this one by Dan Walliser made some good points.

John

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From Dan Walliser - Arizona Cast Bullet Shooters

Recruiting is obviously the key to our survival as a shooting discipline. However, I think the focus on finding a niche for shooters with "non-traditional" rifles misses the point entirely. In 20 years of shooting cast bullet benchrest at Ben Avery, we have NEVER recruited a shooter who wasn't already a bullet caster. Conversely, we have NEVER convinced a shooter to take up bullet casting so that he could shoot with us. Bullet casters are already shooters and already have almost everything they need to start casting rifle bullets - all they need is a mold and a lubrisizer die. Most of us would gladly lend a new recruit a mold and die to get started - we actually do that frequently. Our most successful recruiting efforts have been word-of-mouth and personal contacts with pistol shooters who reload, Schuetzen shooters, BPCR types and hunters who have a preference for cast lead bullets. Many of our shooters are former High Power shooters who are too old to shoot prone and other positions. Buying a used 700 Varmint or heavy-barreled Savage is something most serious people will do. Recruiting from other shooting disciplines may not be very original or creative, but it is the only effort that has produced any positive results over a 20 year period. Dan Walliser - Match Director, Arizona Cast Bullet Shooters

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Tom Acheson posted this 06 May 2023

All of us have different experiences. One of mine was different regarding recruiting. Long ago at the annual March gun show (2009?), a guy carrying a Shiloh Sharps Model 74, of course with iron sights, chambered in 45-70. This was when our CBA table (mistakenly) focused on the matches. He (Lloyd) asked me….can I shoot this in your matches?”. I said sure and he showed up. He lives 85-miles away.For a couple of years he shot jacketed bullets. Then he started buying cast bullets. He WAS NOT a caster at the outset.

Eventually he migrated to a Military rifle and then a Hunter category rifle. He goes back and forth between the two today. Eventually he took up casting to help him expand his load development work for several rifles.

In closing….take anyone you can get, the shooter does not have to be caster. Work with him, coach him, and eventually he might move up to our level of guns and ammo.

FWIW

Tom

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Lucky1 posted this 06 May 2023

I'm going to agree with Tom on this one. Many of us cast our own bullets and tend to look at this hobby from that perspective. That is not the only entry point to cast bullet shooting and Missouri and Lazer Cast have to be selling to someone. So if they can come to a match, have fun with purchased bullets from whatever source, they will eventually grow into other areas of interest.
My own experience mirrors this to a degree. I came to the CBA because a friend told me about it and encouraged me to try. I had several decades of casting but they were pure lead RB for my frontstuffers. So I got some 30 cal molds and eventually went to a match. Results were disappointing for the first match but the shooters worked at getting me through and I had fun in spite of the frustration. So I learned about molds, alloys and lubes and powders, oh my. The military matches morphed into the modern ones too and yes, I'm still perplexed and frustrated some days but I intend to keep having fun with the other shooters help.

Scott Ingle

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