Ok all of you breach seaters, hold do you keep the powder in the case? Or should I say what material do you use?
I have been using floral foam, the stuff just vaporizes. After charging with powder, I push the case mouth into a 1/4" slice of foam and that's it. Today I bought my second block of foam and I think the stuff is different but I haven't shot any yet. What are my alternatives?
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The old timers always mentioned blotter paper. I use foam egg carton wads cut with a wad cutter.
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There is wet and dry floral foam, I do not know the differing characteristics.
I've tried several different wad materials and always ended back to floral foam for the convenience.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Bud: I've always used the wet foam. My new block is wet foam but feels different than the old block. Hence my question. would a small tuft of dacron be ok? I'm probably being to careful about ringing the chamber on a very good BR rifle.
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Reply to Ross Smith:
My new block is wet foam but feels different than the old block. - I doubt there is much quality control for the manufacturers of floral foam. Lot to lot variation can be great since the end product is just thrown away after one use.
Hence my question, would a small tuft of dacron be ok? - Yes, it is common among many cast bullet shooters, especially Schuetzen shooters. When shooting a fixed cartridge, I choose to tap the case three times against the bench, then carefully lift and load the cartridge into the chamber to assure the powder is against the primer.
I'm probably being to careful about ringing the chamber on a very good BR rifle. - Here we are getting into a topic of much discussion. The incidence of chamber-ringing today is small, but the topic endures. I'll attempt to classify my thoughts in olden days versus today below and then my conclusion.
Conditions in olden days:
Conditions today:
While chamber ringing is possible I see the chance as improbable using the modern condition. Often today's reports of chamber ringing are older rifles using hard wads. People need to understand the differences in steel and technique that contribute to this occurrence.
Given the above, I use the following technique for breech-seating:
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Two quickies….
I’ve watched local PBB match shooters using both the green floral material and the veggie wad material, usually the 0.030” thick version. They are usually breech seating.
But, I’m not sure on one detail. With black powder, the poly or veggie wad is compressed onto the top of the powder column. Leaving an air space between the top of the powder and bottom of the wad is a no no. So do the guys with the smokeless and floral/veggie wads just start the wad into the case, allowing an air gap under the wad?
Tom
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But, I’m not sure on one detail. With black powder, the poly or veggie wad is compressed onto the top of the powder column. - The assumption is the black powder shooter is using a case full of powder and the wad seeks to compress the black powder plus hold it in. To do this, the wad must be firmer than floral foam.
Leaving an air space between the top of the powder and bottom of the wad is a no no. - Yes, but is it? This is for the second condition. My supposition is the floral foam will disintegrate before it moves. In contrast in olden days, the wad was hard and became a solid object in flight. Hitting the base of the bullet, wave propagation turned 90 degrees and started on the chamber ring.
So do the guys with the smokeless and floral/veggie wads just start the wad into the case, allowing an air gap under the wad? - Most do not, they push the wad against the powder. I've done this in past years and am now experimenting with the above procedure. My experiment may not work out and I'll return to the former way.
What I'm trying to say is here is there are differing characteristics for chamber ringing. On the ASSRA Forum, this subject frequently comes up with an old rifle shooting smokeless powder. The damning part of this problem is no one wants to sacrifice a rifle barrel for an experiment plus how many rounds must be fired to get the ringed chamber.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Charles F Dell and Wayne Schwartz co-wrote a book titled "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle". What you want is in there!
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Apologize for the possible confusion in my saying “I’m not sure on one detail. With black powder, the poly or veggie wad is compressed onto the top of the powder column.” That was not a well expressed statement. That was a lead-in to migrate to the foam wad/smokeless powder subject. I am sure about the wad and black powder relationship. I’ve been shooting black powder in my rifle since 2009 or 14-years and that’s the only way my loads have been assembled.
There is another forum that I frequent called the Shiloh Rifle forum. (I’ve seen Arnie posting there at times.) I joined it in 2008, shortly before I purchased a CSA Model 74. My intent then and still is to shoot only black powder in that rifle. I could have missed it but there has never been a thread or post, suggesting that the relationship between the bullet base and wad/powder column is anything but the wad resting or compacted onto the top of the powder column. There have been MANY comments about how an air gap between the top of the compressed powder/wad and bullet base must be avoided. There are a few shooters on the forum who shoot smokeless or substitute black powder powder, but my reading says the vast majority shoot black powder. In most cases the wad is either poly or veggie material, with thickness being 0.030” or 0.060”. All much stiffer than the foam material used in smokeless loads.
The case is not full with powder to the top of the case. Some shooters start out with the dumped powder being flush with the case top. But then the powder is compressed with a special compression die, the wad is pushed onto the top of the compressed powder column and then the base of the bullet is pushed into place, resting on the top of the wad. There is no air gap anywhere in the assembled load.
After responding to this post, I called a local shooter/friend who I’ve seen @ our matches shooting a PBB smokeless load and breech seating. He has used both the foam or thinner veggie material. I asked him about the powder and wad positioning relationship. He repeated the black powder “rule” above and for smokeless powder, he said to just start the wad into the case mouth, DO NOT push the wad down onto the top of the powder column.
So, not to start an argument but I’ve had good coaching on the use of black powder and wads and that’s the way I’ll keep doing it. But someday I may try breech shooting with smokeless powder @ our matches, so the foam wad material here caught my attention.
Tom
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Tom and Bud: Good comments, thanks.I load mine (both Black and smokeless) as Tom described. After shooting my 308x 1.625 yesterday in a cold stiff wind, with breach seated bullets at about 2000fps I found I can use cases that are too short to hold a bullet for fixed ammo( 1.620" and bumped bullet). I also learned that I still have to ream the necks down to .015 to have them fire form and seal the chamber.
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I would NEVER leave an airspace after seating a wad- felt, veggie or Poly on BP and compressing my powder charge. The bullet is then finger seated ON the top of the wad. We use fire formed brass, No resizing , and the bullets- GG or paper patched are of a diameter to be a slight friction fit. Some people will then Slightly taper crimp the bullet at that point, to ensure it will stay in place in handling and loading into the chamber. Generally, bullet breach seating is not done (not allowed?) in BPCR matches.
IN Schuetzen Breach Seating, generally the wad , often the floral foam is placed in the Mouth of the case only, and Not seated on the powder. I happen to have found that fan fold "House Wrap" , a material that is stapled on to the outside house wall for wind/weather protection under vinyla and other siding is about 1/4" thickness and is also polystyrene foam, like the floral foam. I can just 'cookie cut" my house wrap with slightly inside chamfered case mouth. In the case of floral foam , it comes in blocks and shooters will "slice" it into 1/4" or so thickness to prep it for the "cookie cut" into the case mouth.
It is generally a "starting point" for schuetzen shooters to breech seat the bullet ONLY +- 1/16" in front of the case mouth/wad td avoid the shock wave phenomenon
beltfed/arnie
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If you don’t need the thickness styrofoam meat tray makes a passable wad.
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wimilkman
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pat i.
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Tom Acheson
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Aaron
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BRatigan
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MarkinEllensburg
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Ed Harris
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mashburn
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porthos
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MP1886
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