Plowing new old ground

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Tom Bieri posted this 2 weeks ago

I recently opened a bran new can of worms for me. I entered the not so new world of the 45-70 with the purchase of a very nice Henry rifle. I quickly ordered a couple of RCBS 45-405 gas check molds that cast beautiful bullets cast in pure Linotype that weigh 409 grains with lube and Lyman gas check (I bought the Lyman cause that was all I could find). The first time to the range everything worked better than expected for my old eyes and the Buckhorn sights. As I want to use this as a hunting rifle I emptied my lead pot and made a witches brew of a piece of lead pipe and Linotype (9.8 pounds of lino and 12.2 pounds of pipe). This cast nice bullets that are a bit smaller than the pure Lino (as expected) and with lube and gas check weigh 428 grains. However the Lyman gas checks do not stay on period they stay stuck to the lubersizer. I found some Hornady gas checks and have ordered them hopefully this will cure my newest dilemma in cast bullets. Has anyone else experienced this? Am I going to be able to crimp the hornady checks on?

Dazzed and confused as normal in the cast bullet world

Tom Bieri

Farm boy from Buffalo Prairie Illinois transplanted to sunny Florida Tom Bieri

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

Old Lyman gas checks were made for their old moulds, they have a tapered shank for the gas check to seat. Hornady and modern gas checks crimp onto a straight sided shank. You should have no problem with RCBS moulds and Hornady gas checks. HTH

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Bud Hyett posted this 2 weeks ago

The fitting of gaschecks for .45-70, and also for the .45-60 is a range of problems. 

Ric is correct. The Lyman mold is tapered to use their old slip-on gascheck and can be used with the Hornady crimp-on gascheck. Several decades ago, Lyman quit offering their slip-on gascheck, going with the crimp-on design. Their bullet design criteria is for Lyman alloy (90 Pb/5 Sn/5 Sb), therefore they have a slightly larger bullet using linotype.

Talked many years ago to the RCBS engineer at a NRA Annual Meeting about mold design. His input was RCBS sells many rifle molds for many purposes, the design standardizes the size and weight for linotype. They also assume the buyer will be using the popular Hornady-style crimp-on gascheck. That is why you have the correct fit. Any bullet smaller in diameter gets into a slip-fit situation.

Also, the .45 caliber gascheck is used on pistols; thus we have .451, .452, .454, 458 nominal bore diameters to fit. Add to this the variations in cylinder throat size in revolvers, chamber leade in rifles, and the oversize bores on the Trapdoor rifle. 

Back in the days of the Marston Municipal Range shooting with Ed Doonan and my first Marlin 1895 coupled with each owning a Ruger Blackhawk convertible in .45 Colt/.45 ACP, we explored gascheck to bore diameters. With revolvers using Hornady or Lyman gachecks. we found gaschecks (more Lyman) in the grass on the way to the 50 yard target. With the Marlin and Trapdoor rifles, we did not find gaschecks. Without gaschecks on the rifle loads, there was no discernible difference in accuracy, but the Marlin did lead above 1700 fps. With a Siamese Mauser full load, 2200 fps and linotype, Ed dug out a bullet stuck in the boxelder tree 200 yard backstop with the Hornady gascheck still on it after passing through the railroad tie backstop.

For the Trapdoor and subsequent single shots, I only load black powder. The alloy is 30/1 tin/lead and the bullets are soft. No gascheck bullets.

The black powder load does well on hogs and deer. The smokeless load does well also. 

For .45 Colt pistols, owning a Single Action Army and New Service, I forgo any heavy loads requiring a gascheck bullet even in my Ruger Blackhawks;

  • 6.5 grains Unique for the SAA and New Service using a 200 grain semi-wadcutter.
  • 8.0 grains Unique for the Smith & Wessons using a 200 grain semi-wadcutter or 235 grain flat roundnose.
  • 9.3 grains Unique for the Rugers using a 235 grain flat roundnose. 

For the Marlin 1895, the load was RCBS 45-405-FN, wheelweight alloy, Hornady gascheck, sized .460 (only lubed as the bullet was .459+), 48 grains Reloder #7, W-W LR primer. I figured the bullet was large at the beginning  and did not need too much expansion.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Qc Pistolero posted this 2 weeks ago

Welcome in the wonderful world of the 45-70.When I began shooting,my favorite cal was the 30-06...until I got my first 45-70.

I've never used Lyman gc but I did use Hornadyand RCBS and was fully satisfied with both(I don't think RCBS still makes some though).

Nowaday,I don't use any since I realised after the purchase of a chrono that plain base bullets won't lead at around 1450-1500fps.Since I realised that,I have quitted using them in my magnum revolvers.Tests have shown me same or almost same accuracy in revolvers and no difference in rifles.So I simply do without them;save one operation and some $$$.

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sergeant69 posted this 2 weeks ago

so.....are you now using a PB bullet mold, or just not putting a gas check on your old mold bullets designed with a gas check shank?

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Tom Bieri posted this 2 weeks ago

The RCBS 45-405 is a gas check mold and currently the only mold I have so no I am not using PB bullets I am waiting for the Hornady gas checks to arrive and hopefully they will stay on...from what Bud stated I am hopeful the Hornady checks will work even with the slightly smaller diameter of the softer lead.

Farm boy from Buffalo Prairie Illinois transplanted to sunny Florida Tom Bieri

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sergeant69 posted this 2 weeks ago

sorry. my question was for qc pistolero. should have made it more clear. my bad.

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Qc Pistolero posted this 2 weeks ago

In the 45-70 I use plain base molds simply because they are the ones that are the most accurate.In my .44 and .357 revolvers,I use my checked bullets without the gc installed.I've ran tests and no difference.And in the case of my RCBS 430-240SIL mold,they are a little bit more accurate without the gc.I must say though that the difference is purely academic(fraction of an inch).

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sergeant69 posted this 1 weeks ago

but the bottom line is the GC heeled bullet works w/out the GC. thats good to know. won't do it w/a rifle round but am gonna try it in my 45 colt

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 1 weeks ago

just a note that 22 rimfire heeled bullets fire great at 1300 fps without gas checks ... and they are very soft ...  of course they don't stay heeled very long when fired ... the base squishes up into the body ... no wonder they only shoot 3/4 moa ( 50 shot group )  ...  heeled a poor design, too short, too soft, deform when shot , no gas check ..,  nothing to see there ....

ken

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John Alexander posted this 1 weeks ago

OK Ken,

When are we gonna see that 6mm heeled bullet shooting wonder'

Those old used benchrest barrels you have laying around have just the right twist for a little short fat squishy heeled bullet.

It's about time to revolutionize this old game.

John

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