New Project time! Winchester 92 .44-40 Short Rifle

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Lance Boyle posted this 19 August 2025

Well I think this is my first post outside of the Introduction page.

 

There are a lot familiar names here that I seem to recognize from other boards.  I have used other monikers elsewhere, Lance Boyle, SteelonSteel, Short Round.  I am a retired fellow now who likes to solve puzzles, gun shooting reloading puzzles.  I have begun to recognize that I am always looking for a new project.  This latest project is a New Production .44-40 Winchester Short rifle.  The last project was a Marlin 1894C in .357 magnum.  I actually wanted the 1892 in .357 but couldn’t quite get one out of the dealers without paying more than suggested retail.  I had a short run in with a .357 Cimarron 1873 US Marshall but ended up sending it back for some issues they didn’t fix.  

 

Well my FFL buddy called me up and said he got an email from his distributor rep on the short rifle but in .44-40, yep, sure, why not I says.  Now I can justify it because I already had a Lyman 0.429 sizer die, all I needed were dies, shellholder, brass and a rifle, a minor investment to flesh out the used 0.429 sizer die.  Makes perfect sense.

 

I picked up the rifle yesterday and coincidentally my Grafs order was on the porch that had my Redding Dies, Starline brass, a shell holder and some ACME 200 gr RNFP sized .430.  I tapped one into the throat yesterday and my throat area seems to be .430, I did not run one up farther as it was BRN 15 and was pretty hard push.  I have lots of round balls…..of .30 cal and .50 cal.  Situation normal!

 

I got my dies mostly set up.  I did not lock the sizer down, In fact i only sized one case that came with a dented and rolled mouth. It’s probably a lost cause but I straightened it with round jaw pliers, sized it then expanded it.  I followed the sage advice of setting up the crimp and seat die so that their is a good visible gap above the mouth in a finished round. Spot on a 1.60 +/- 0.001”. 

 

I did venture to size all but a handful of these bullets to 0.429 to make my life easier. It’s not like I’ll be buying bullets forever, it’s literally just a starting point before I select a mold.  I’ll shoot these and see what it does, what the loads feel like.  I expect to be happiest at less than the full bore High Velocity type loads but more than powder puff cowboy.  It’s a range toy, I’m not looking to make this a long range target or hunting gun.  

 

That brings me to this point, there is data for the cowboy stuff and the full,power stuff but maybe a bit missing in the middle with modern powders.  There is good data for the old standbys of Red Dot, Bullseye, Unique then RL7 and 4227 and 2400 toward the other end. 

 

I have more powders than data I think!  They just don’t quite line up. 

 

I have small amounts of W231, Clays, TrailBoss, and AA5. (and some P-5066 for old timers)

I have decent amounts of AA2, Zip, BE86, Sport Pistol, CFE Pistol, WST, True Blue and Univeral.

 

I was mostly thinking of using the Trail Boss but not expecting the best accuracy (to get rid of it off the shelf).  AA2 I thought of using as a rough substitute for popular Red Dot and Bullseye loads.  I have 4 pounds of it so I am happy if that’s a good place to be.  

 

Alternatively I was thinking BE86 or Univeral may be a good place to roughly substitute for Unique. 

 

No pictures of the rifle taken yet.  It’s dark and gloomy out.  So far my only disappointment so far is the buttstock socket is very proud around the receiver.  the wood is 1/8” proud at the side action bolsters and along the top tang, almost like they were shrouding the safety button they use now.  It looks like a good fit in the mortise edges, they just left a lot of extra wood. 

 

I have read a lot all over the web in the last week thanks to Bryan Austin, Larry Gibson, Ed Harris and a host of other generous people much smarter than me. 

 

warm regards

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Lance Boyle posted this 19 August 2025

Oh, I just did a takedown to get a better access and  measurement of the throat.  It seems the throat is 0.429 and the groove is 0.4285” which the groove is on spec.  The throat measurement is I guess subjective as I may have not gone far enough with the slug.  But it’s probably not much smaller or larger than that. 

 

I loaded up theee dummy rounds with the .429” sized bullets and they chamber. 

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Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2025

Savvy Jack's .44-40 page is the Bible. I have had best results in my several .44-40 rifles and revolvers using soft bullets and the faster burning pistol or shotgun powders. I am still using 452AA from the 1990s, but WST is the powder which replaced it and works well.

For a full-charge hunting load for the 1892 Winchester and modern clones 20 grains of 4227 works well with up to a 240-grain bullet. Also OK in Rugers and modern Italian Colt single action clones.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Lance Boyle posted this 19 August 2025

Ha! your ears must have been ringing!  Thanks for the thoughts today and all the crumbs of info you left on the net for me in the .44-40.  I have been data mining.  Bryan’s site is pretty impressive!

 

I couldn’t find the Cowboy die’s that iirc are the recommended ones that don’t size the case to death (for the old 18oo’s guns).  They appeared out of production but after I bought the Reddings I hear you can still get the Cowboy die’s direct from RCBS. 

 

With the redding’s I find as expected the expander is too small at 0.425 for the long haul and will likely pick up a .44 mag expander (or make on on the lathe if I’m not lazy or am just impatient).  The Starline brass came a liitle loose so I figured for now I’d skip sizing the new brass, I just expanded it and used some .430 ACME bullets resized to 0.429”.   That’s about five thou interference fit but with a decent belling and the beveled bullets (spit, spit) they seat just fine with no crunching or wasp wasting. You guy’s showing to not crowd the top of the crimp groove made the seat and crimp in one step ok for now.   Reading Bryan’s site I may be a bit too fat to use the Redding Profile crimp die with  0.429” bullets. 

 

I have to make a few test shells now.  I haven’t rushed to it as some does with their fawns are feeding in the clover next to my picnic table shooting bench.

 

warm regards and thanks again, 

 

I did find some AA2 data,  now to find some WST data for the 200 grain Acme!

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Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2025

WST and 452AA can be safely loaded at the same charge weight as Bullseye. Velocity will be a bit lower, but the result is a safe starting load. If desired you can work up carefully over a chronograph to reach your desired velocity, but I have not found doing so necessary. A charge of 6.0 grains with either under a 200-215 grain bullet is where I usually end up.

Six grains of Bullseye is a full charge load for pre-WW2 revolvers.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Lance Boyle posted this 20 August 2025

Thank you Ed! I’ll work up some of those tomorrow, it’ll looks like a rain day.

 

I did a couple small test round lots today with Universal since I had some.  The 6.6 grains starter and then 7.0 grains.  .iirc the max is 7.0 but I am not sure if that is for category 1 rifles like ‘73s.   

 

In the 20” barrel it gave about 1060 fps with the start load and I averaged 1100 fps with the 7.0 grain load. 

 

Nothing all that great on paper other than my first 2 foulers at 25, they were touching.  Adjust the sight down a notch and went to 50 yards with high hopes.   5” extreme spread for the start load and 8 for the 7.0 load but I noticed that my bullets were getting set back until they hit the front of the crimp groove.  That’s no good. I loaded all the 7.0 grain loads from the magazine.  I only loaded three of the starter load through the mag.

 

observations, mistakes, et cetera.

 

Not sizing the new cases was a mistake as I thought I’d have sufficient interference fit.  Apparently there was still too much taper.  My four dummy rounds didn’t budge but things moved while shooting. No bueno.  Probably even worse with soft virgin brass.  I know better but took a chance not having the larger .44 mag expander yet.

I managed to wrinkle a couple cases.  Pretty sure that was a problem from seating and crimping at the same time. The crimping was pulling the bullet deeper in the case and hit the front edge of the crimp groove.  That made me split those operations but using the same die. 

I also forgot to grab my single vision glasses, I hate trying to see iron sights with my progressive lenses.  That can be a sizable issue for me right there.  I had a heck of a time with that tiny rear notch and that dull brass bead.  I am tempted to buy the rear sight that comes on the large loop carbine, a nice flat rear notch and a ladder sight.  They’re not cheap iirc! 

Oh and I managed to step on one of my ejected cases too. 

 

I’ll get there and solve this puzzle.  

 

 

 

 

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Ed Harris posted this 20 August 2025

In modern rifles and revolvers you can go up to 7 grains of Bullseye with up to a 240-grain, as pressure tested by Larry Gibson. With 200-grain bullet it is a safe full charge load for post-1920 Colts which are heat treated and any of the '92 Winchesters.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Lance Boyle posted this 20 August 2025

Bullseye! ???

 

I don’t think I’ve seen any in three or four years.  Of the old standbys of BE, Unique and 2400,  I have just 2400 left.  :-(

 

I do have AA2, Sport pistol and Clays for faster stuff.  Sport Pistol is literally right next to Bullseye on the powder burn rate chart. 

 

Edit.   I must be ready for bed and half asleep. I get it now, sub the Bullseye data for the WST for a starting load and work up.

 

I can be slow in the head. 

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Lance Boyle posted this 20 August 2025

So far today’s progress was following your suggestion.  I loaded up a series of work up test lots with WST.  This time actually sizing the cases versus using them as they came from starline.   I might start flaring more as with .429 size it’s rather close to get them started.  The store bought bevel base ACME bullets are helping in that regard though.  I am not a bevel base fan either, but in this application it has some merits. 

 

I did also reload the 1x fired batch from yesterday with the 7.0 gr of Universal. Just to give it a fairer shot when I actually have the right glasses on and they’re actually sized and even better fireformed. 

 

I wonder how much the lack of fireforming in the brass is affecting my work ups.  Not that I don’t go back and repeat them before making a big batch of ammo. 

My club’s indoor range is out of order for modernization.  Today might be a good day for some indoor work if it was done. 

 

 

 

So the next break in the weather won’t be today or tomorrow. 

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Lance Boyle posted this 21 August 2025

Well first off many thanks to Mr. Ed Harris.  I think he knows a thing or two.  Since I didn’t have bullseye and you suggested WST was a pretty good substitute I tested it out today.  

 

Not too shabby, I think my fun load is mostly there now!   

 

I shot another batch of the Universal powder load, this time with my single rx glasses on instead of the progressives.  Meh.  

 

I then shot WST, 6.2 grains, 6.5, 6.8 and 7.0.  

 

6.2 average 1123, SD 2.9, ES 8.5

6.5 average 1156, SD 7.4, ES 19

6.8 average 1186, SD 8.8, ES 26.6

7.0 average 1208, SD 8.5, ES 24.3

 

The 7.0 was the winner of the day with a 1.25” group.  

 

Young fellers,….listen to those that have been down the path before you!

 

To be honest the 7.0 group may have an unfair advantage as the speed increased my impacts were getting closer to the bottom of the paper so I changed two things, I move the rear sight elevation up to step 2 and also because of my eyes shifted to a six o’clock hold.  My eyes were a little troublesome holding the center mass hold as the right side of the target would appear to fade or wash out. Cataract issue I suppose. 

Maybe I’ll repeat the test for the top two charges.  I need to change the primers anyhow.  I had one CCI 300 pierce.  After I had started with those primers I found that I had some winchester Large Pistols that should be a bit tougher.  Sadly I gave 900 CCI LP magnum primers to a friend that asked for some.  At the time the only LP primed cartridge I used was .45 ACP. oops.  I know he hasn’t used them, maybe I’ll beg a few packs back.   oh and the charge that pierced? the lightest load, 6.2 grains. 

(Edit- CCI 300 primers were my older stocks in light buff almost white sleeves over the smallest trays that have ten primers lying on their sides in the long slots, not single primer cups)

Again, many thanks to Mr. Harris!

 

 

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Bryan Austin posted this 23 August 2025

Great range report Lance!!!

I did manage to test some WST in one of the last tests I managed to make. 7.5gr gave me 1,173fps @ a recorded 12,372PSI, slightly over the 11,000PSI max. 

Looks like 7gr is a worker for that 92'!!!! applause

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 August 2025

great adventure you have going here ...

and a 1.5 inch group at 50 yards with iron sights with a 44 anything is impressive ... my bolt rem 788 in 44 mag with a scope could do no better ...

ken the follower

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Lance Boyle posted this 23 August 2025

Thanks fellas!

 

 

I did notice on my test repeat and confirmation that I did not get as tight groups as the first 7.0 test.  Eyeballs and or I think using my fire formed brass I need to move the crimp setting to make up for the loss of case length from getting fire formed.  

 

I also ordered some .428 bullets and the Redding Profile crimp die.  I was hesitant to spend the coin on that die if the .428 size doesn’t group as well.   I figured some guys have success shooting the undersize bullets and they likely bump up, that I’ll give it a try.   

 

If the .428 bullets do do work I’ll skip getting a .44 mag expander and drive on.  I did not load any of the Acme bullets in their .430 size as I didn’t trust the look of the fit sitting on a case expanded with the Redding .425 expander. 

 

This morning I ordered a case holder for the Wilson trimmer too. Sooner or later I’ll need to uniform the case lengths.  

 

I do like to experiment. 

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Lance Boyle posted this 23 August 2025

Oh and for anyone following the .44-40 path in the future I’ll add my info to what you can read on Mr. Austin’s .44-40 page.

 

My (bought new 2025) redding full length die set is giving me these numbers:

Sizer with Starline cases (virgin) yields an inner neck diameter of 0.422”

Expander yields 0.425” ID

 

So currently I have a 4 thou interference fit. 

Notes

- sizer only shows marking on the top half of the neck where a standard ish 200 grain bullet would be seated to.  It does not appear to work the rest of the neck.  It does show light marks on the case body after it’s been fired but not on virgin starline brass.  Virgin starline brass really doesn’t show a defined shoulder just a relatively constant taper.  I only get the apparent shoulder after fire forming which also shortens the case length a few thou in my rifle.  (I Will need to adjust my crimp for this)

 

The expander is stepped but I think modestly so if you’re using the .429 bullets.  It’s not quite the M die alignment affect with that large of a bullet. I have to be very careful to place the bullet very straight on the case as it wants to tip.  I am sure the .44 mag expander would fix that.  I am alternatively trying the smaller bullet first and the profile crimp die. 

 

The seater plug is hollow in the center so it’s making contact on the ogive not the tip.  I have found that a bit of parting line flash on my purchased bullets will throw off the seating dimension a skosh.  That and the fact that commercial Magma dies that make Acme bullets aren’t all cut from the same cherries. The tip to crimp dimension has enough variance to be annoying.  I learned quickly to skip the seat and crimp in one step and to seat, adjust if necessary certain rounds set too deep or too shallow to line up perfectly with the crimp groove.  After they’re set with the crimp groove then I will crimp. 

 

I did not change the lock ring on my crimp die yet.  For the separated steps I throw a forster lockring under the redding one and adjust the seater stem.   To crimp, I remove the extra lock ring and seater. 

 

For what I have on hand this is working for now.  I look forward to a mold with bullets that are all exactly the same.  I am experimenting with the store bought bullets for now. 

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Lance Boyle posted this 26 August 2025

Well so far the .428 sized Acme 200 with 6.5 grains of WST and the Redding Profile crimp didn’t wow me.  A fist sized fifty yard group.   

I will work it up toward the 7.0 load again.  I was hoping to get a accurate load at a little lower speed.  

 

Anyways the Acme .428 RNFP in once fired starline, sized in the Redding die set, Redding expander, Redding seater without crimp and finished with the new profile crimp die (which drew the bullet in and gave OAL of 1.580) yielded an average of 1137 fps for 15 rounds and a SD in the 8’s.  4+ inch group though. 

 

I did like the more relaxing level of loading the smaller diameter bullet and enjoyed the use of the profile crimp die.  Now just to see if there is an accurate load down that path. 

 

If that doesn’t work then it’s back to 0.429 or 0.430 bullets. I’ll need a .44 mag expander if I end up working down that direction. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 August 2025

FWIW ... i still have 3 or 4 mostly full boxes of 500 count 44 cal commercial bullets that shot about 4 or 6 moa in my bolt rem. 788 with scope.  my best loads were Lee 300 gr cast with full loads of H110 ...  

the Lee 300 gr has also shot well from other's reports.

the reason for full loads came from my slow 36 inch twist ... I figured the faster the better ...  if you have a 16 or 24 twist perhaps a more gentle load would be less kick to contend with.

..heh, i stupidly traded off that spiffy lightgun, just wore me out rolling pop cans ...  but with my usual astute logic, I replaced it with a Ruger No. 3 in 45-70 ...

 

 

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Lance Boyle posted this 27 August 2025

I think you’re right about the twist,   It’s a 1 in 36 according to the Winchester site. (edited because somehow I’d get a smiley face instead of a twist rate using a colon.

 

I am working up from 6 to 7 grains again, this time with .428 bullets.  I did a quick test run yesterday and wasn’t overly impressed with a load in the middle of those.   

 

I had a little light leading I think too.  It brushed right out with Ed’s Red on a bronze brush but I am slightly regretting buying 200 of the smaller bullets.  That was the first time I saw any darkness in the bore.  I was hoping the .428 would obturate enough to seal a little better.   Maybe at a higher charge.   The alloy in the Acme commercial bullets tested at 14 Brinnell. 

 

I am loading again this morning while it rains. 

 

I did check two rounds using .429” sized bullets in the Starline brass with the Redding profile crimp just to see.  One was fine and one was very slightly wrinkled. So that’s just as Bryan’s tests turned out.   It’s unfortunate i like the profile die concept. .  Well maybe I’ll find a load with the factory .428 sized bullets.   It’s early.

 

Unfortunately one variable that I have a hard time controlling is my eyeball focus.  I have a Friday eye doc appointment maybe I’ll see about getting a new script single vision rx pair of glasses to augment my progressive glasses. 

 

Anyways I need to repeat my tests sometimes as I don’t always trust the vision to be as good on some days. 

 

A reliable 2” group at 50 yards is acceptable to me.  Preferably not stressing the brass cases too. 

 

I will say that WST is about the cleanest powder that I have used with cast.  

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Lance Boyle posted this 28 August 2025

Just some more data points 

 

Acme (Magma) 200 gr .428” RNFP Bullets, Starline Brass, CCI300

6.0 WST , Av 1069, Lo 1058, Hi 1092, SD 10.5, ES 34, The only ten shot group  4 1/4”:

6.2 WST, Av 1100, Lo 1092, Hi 1107,  SD 5.6 ,ES  15.7,  3 1/8” group, 4 in 1 1/8” knot

6.4 WST, Av 1123, lo 1117, Hi 1134, SD 6, ES 17, 5” group 

6.6 WST,  Av 1147, Lo 1137, Hi 1159, SD 7.9, ES 22, 3 1/8” group

6.8 WST, Av 1175, Lo 1169, Hi 1181, SD 4.9, ES 12.1, 3” group

7.0 WST, AV 1194, Lo 1181, HI 1215, SD 11.7, ES 34, 3.5” but 4 were in a 1 5/8” knot

7.2 WST, Av 1215, Lo 1206, Hi 1227, SD 6.9, ES 20.7,  3” group

and one that is an oddball with a few 0.429 bullets I resized from .430 

6.0 WST, Av 1105, Lo 1092, Hi 1109, SD 6.5, ES 17.4  4.3” group

 

notes

I find shot number one is often a high shot of a group or even the group breaker.

while the center of a group or preponderance if impacts were close to my sights with a six o’clock hold and impacts mostly at or near the point of impact, only the 6.0 load shot the center of its group above the x ring (still a 6 o’clock hold) and 5” above the sight hold..  All other groups including the oddball 0.429 bullets with 6.0 WST shot to the sights or within 1.5” of the sights.   I did not mix up the 6.0 WST loads between the .428 and the .429 size bullets.  They were on opposite sides of the ammo box and I wrinkled one of the .429 sized bullet loads when I tested them in the profile crimp die and I examined said wrinkled case immediately before and after firing that shot. Oddly the odd size bullet load was a “better fit” then the one of the same charge with the 0.428”  bullets of the test series.

 

In the last couple years I am pretty tentative making judgements on groups with iron sights and my old man eyes.  I have bad days and good days depending on light and eyeball cooperation.   This session didn’t seem all that bad eyewise,  The light highlighted the brass bead and put a slight glint on the edge of the rear U notch.   Granted the light conditions changed a bit with passing clouds.   Ah the struggle of aging. 

 

Another thing yesterday I tried to track down the .44 magnum expander as Redding does not sell direct.  No one seemed to have the expander stem only in stock.  I called up Redding and got a tech and explained that there was nothing wrong with the die but I was trying to load for my bore of the more modern dimensions.  He was glad to drop a .44 magnum expander in the mail,..gratis.  I tried to pay but he said it wasn’t necessary.  I’ll be in good shape soon to resume 0.429 and even 0.430 sized bullets. 

 

I am trying to narrow down what diameter is best before buying a mold.  I suspect that a 0.429 or .430 is going to be where I end up. (as I always expected after slugging the bore)  I think anything that comes out the front is CAS accurate but probably not silhouette accurate.  It seems 98% of bullets offered are CAS grade, I seem to cull a fair amount out of the box with commercial bullets.  Mostly a bit of hardened slag on the bevel bases of the Acme bullets.  

 

Well that is my update for now.  Hardly anything ground breaking here. 

 

 

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 August 2025

just some trivia...

when looking for a load for a magazine rifle, i first try for best accuracy by ignoring whether the load will feed reliably or not ...  ... just single load it, and with as little ..or none ... seating tension/case neck grip .... as I can get.

usually, I expand an empty case to find the maximum neck OD my chamber will allow ... then when actually loading, taper expand to a couple thousands under that with the tapered neck just holding the bullet near the bottom.  this lets the bullet nose orient itself better and also only minimally buggers the bullet near the base .   usually the more grip from the neck the more flyers I get.

these loads are a bit delicate for pocket carry but at least I see what the load/gun can do ...  then I can stand a bit bigger groups and flyers if I need to fill the magazine with tighter gripped loads.

in most cartridges, for magazine use, i use an expander the same diameter as the bullet, then crimp only as needed.

and the Lee expander die is great as I can turn more expanders in about 15 minutes to play with ...simple little stubby inserts.

if i were smarter, and only had one rifle, i would make some tapered reamers for the necks as sizing/taper expanding is time consuming ...  but since I get bored easily after about a hundred shots and start on another project,  expanding is overall faster.

ken, wandering in Iowa

 

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Lance Boyle posted this 28 August 2025

Some good thoughts Ken.  Thank you.

 

I was wondering if I was doing the right thing with the amount of crimp I was using with the Redding Profile Crimp die.  I was using a pretty heavy crimp I think on the .428 bullets.   More crimp than I was using with the die set seat die roll crimp with the .429 bullets.    I am using a fast shotgun powder instead of RL7 or 4227.  I doubt it needs much of a crimp for a uniform burn with WST.  I was more guarding against a bullet setting back.  The Acme bullets have a crimp groove and if they move they have stopped there when the brass meets the flat edge.  (Completely off topic,…Just saw a small fawn trot by 6 yards out my window just now) 

 

I just found an as new Lyman 427098 mold for $50.  I’ll try that and see if I can get some more consistency.   Hopefully I get 0.429” out of it.   I’d prefer a crimp groove and flat base put I am not sure what diameter mold to get just yet.  I do not want to spend $125 on a custom mold and have it not be what I want.  I almost bought the Lee mold, it certainly is about the design that I like. 

 

 

Oh and plus one on the Lee universal expander.  I’ve turned a handful of stepped expanders as most don’t expand deep enough for a full wadcutter.   I’ve also made my own Dillon wadcutter expander powder funnel for .38 special wadcutters. I was getting close to making another Lee expander for the .44-40 as I didn’t find the Redding .44 mag stem only when looking for one in stock.  Redding hooked me up though so I’ll not need to turn one at this time. 

 

 

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Bryan Austin posted this 29 August 2025

If you get serious about casting, get the Accurate Molds 43-215C by John Kort. It is basically a copy of the 427098 but incorporates a crimp groove. 

I got the 43-214A made to mimic John's 43-215C, but removed the crimp groove and reverted back to the smokeless lube grooves.

If you want the lead to expand in the bore, ya gotta use softer lead and closer to max pressures.

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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