MV for deer with cast bullets

  • 1.4K Views
  • Last Post 14 September 2022
2frogs posted this 25 August 2022

Being new to deer hunting with cast bullets I need some advice. I have a 6 inch s@w 686 and Rossi 92 both in 357 cal. Bullet is 158 gr bhn of 13. Most shots will be maybe 60 yards or less. My question is what muzzle velocity should I be looking for as long as the accuracy is there. I appreciate any help you can offer. Thanks. Johnny

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Lucky1 posted this 25 August 2022

I'm glad you have put a reasonable limit on trying to take a deer and it agrees with my experiences. Assuming a cast Keith style SWC you should have good luck with careful shot placement from the Smith. I go with a RNFP in my carbine to increase reliability in feeding and the flat point still imparts a good wound. The velocity question.... I didn't have a chrono so I basically used the Lyman book and tried to push it a close to max velocity as possible. I had to remind myself that hitting a paper plate at 50 with the pistol was clearly minute of deer and good enough. Power and penetration were the goal and the 357 eventually became my preferred pistols over the 44 mag. So let em get close and have a ball because it is a heck of a thrill and feeling of accomplishment when you score.

Scott Ingle

Attached Files

Eutectic posted this 25 August 2022

I would use the lever gun and save the 686 for finishers if needed. Work up to a maximum load of 2400. You might want a softer bullet <10 with mostly tin so it is not brittle. This may lead the Rossi so target 3 shots then clean by shooting 10 low velocity 700 fs loads. Make sure your SWC feeds OK. 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Fitzpatrick
2frogs posted this 25 August 2022

Oh yeah. They feed with ease.not sure how the accuracy will be. I guess 2to 3 inch will be acceptable at 60 or less yards.i am finding with the 30 twist it's kind of picky what bullets it likes. Maybe 1500 fps is too fast for it. I'm just learning about.At 73 I guess there is a lot more to it than with jacket ammo

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 August 2022

2 to 3 inches at 60 yards with a revolver ?? ... wow.   hoping you refer to the rifle.  ... 

just remembering my attempts to shoot 100 yard steel chickens with my killer 8 inch Dan Wesson ... how humbling ...

happy to read about  hunting with handguns ... especially revolvers ...  

ken

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • mashburn
  • sudden thunder
David Reiss posted this 26 August 2022

I am with Eutectic, 13 bnh is much to hard, especially with that small caliber bullet. It will fly though the deer will minimal damage.

During my college days and a little after I hunted with a 6" DW revolver a lot. Started using straight WWs and that quickly changed after some long tracking afterwards which lead to a lost deer (which may or may not have been hit, no blood trail) and a couple which took multiple shots. I then mixed those WWs with some pure lead and bullet performance drastically improved.  

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • 2frogs
  • Jack47
Lee Guthrie posted this 26 August 2022

A suggestion would be to use "cast softnose" bullets.  A pure lead (or with maybe a little tin) nose and a really hard cast body.

 

It is not that difficult to make.  If you have access to old Fouling Shots:  #60-15, 62-16, 81-15, 84-22, 95-20.

A bottom pour pot filled with the hard alloy, and a dipper floating on top of the melt and containing a pure lead round ball of appropriate size.  With a handgun any slight decrease in accuracy will not be noticed.

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Glenn R. Latham
2frogs posted this 26 August 2022

Loads I tried this morning,158 gr lee with gas checks. Best 4 shot group at 50 yards was approx 2 1/2 inch air a little over 1500 fps. All I have is 158 and 125 gr. cast bullets. And that's my goal to use cast bullets. Thanks

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 28 August 2022

Years ago had lots of experience with this. Good results with 50-50 wheelweights and plumber's lead with 1% tin added in .357. Loaded #358429 bullet seated to crimp groove in 38 Special brass with 11 grains of #2400 or 14 grains of 4227. Used same load in both rifle and .357 revolver. As Dave said, use rifle as primary, revolver for finishers. Complete through and through penetration. Good for deer and hogs.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

2frogs posted this 28 August 2022

Thanks for the advice. I'll make a few softer ones like around 9/10 with gas checks.

Attached Files

2frogs posted this 28 August 2022

Ok I have to admit I'm still confused about this bullet hardness. I wish there was someone with real experiences for this. Some I'm starting over here. My Rossi is my favorite rifle. But,it has that damn 1/30 twist. My 125 gr cast shoot bretty good at 50 yards. The 158 gr are fair good for minute of deer. Maybe I read to much,I see several articles which state a bhn of 12 to 16 are good for hunting,but your saying my 13 bhn is to hard. Like I said probably no shot will be over 60 yards. I also have some 180 coated bullets which I'm told will or should be good in my 30 twist barrel. I plan to check the hardness and shoot a few tomorrow using 2400 powder. Can anyone help me get a clearer view on this. Thanks.. Johnny..

Attached Files

delmarskid posted this 29 August 2022

I shot cast 180’s in my Rossi .357. I had to use 38 cases to get it to feed. If I were using a gas checked bullet I would go as soft a bhn as I could cast. How many shots will really be taken at game? Leading wouldn’t be an issue. I never had leading with my Rossi with plain based . I doubt if bullets will skip over the rifling. Play with it. I shoot into the bottoms of pine rounds and split them to check penetration.

Attached Files

David Reiss posted this 29 August 2022

I am sorry, but I thought I made it clear. I shot from 8-10 deer with my .357 revolver. My first was with straight WWs and the penetration was clean though the lungs with little damage. I tracked that deer a long way before I could get another shot, this time firing through the front shoulders crippling him, but still had to finish him off with a head shot. Young and dumb, I did it again with a doe. Again a good shot at about 30-35 yards, through the heart/lung area. Lost her. Another one, thought I made a good hit, but no blood or fur, lost her. Then a friend told me my bullets were just too hard. So I mixed the WWs with pure lead, 50-50. That did the trick, but I still didn't want to lose or track another one like the 1st one. So I added a little more pure lead. I had no way to tell the hardness, but I knew I had a better hunting bullet when I tested them in almost pure sand where we shot for fun. The bullets really expanded, unlike the straight WW bullets which hardly deformed at all. 

There it is. Not scientific, but worked for me. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 30 August 2022

Johnny, I would delegate the 125gr bullet for target practice and/or varmint shooting with your M686 and M92. Regarding the Lee C358-158SWC bullet, try a binary alloy of either 20:1 or 30:1 giving a BHN of around 9-10. Work with the M92 to get at least 1100fps with the bullet. That binary alloy should be expanding and deforming at that MV through the M92. Work the MV upwards, if you can get more accuracy, or maintain whatever accuracy you can squeak out of the load/rifle combo. The softer alloy, combined with the gas check should allow slightly higher MV with enough umph to get the job done.

Regarding the M686, that is yet another whole load development project but I would stick with harder bullets in that rascal since you need to get the MV up a lot quicker. Six inches is quite different than 18" for a load work-up. When I hunted with my 6" M686, I did use Lyman #2 alloy and accepted that the bullets would penetrate without much deformation. Shot placement in a vital zone is absolutely critical to recovering your venison, and even then, as David Reiss alludes to, some may get away from you. I was and still remain, in the camp of "hit 'em hard and true" and you will have meat on the table. The 158gr "Keith" style bullet generally works for this.

If high velocity is your game, a harder bullet is called for. If terminal ballistic performance is the game, then a bullet of about 10 BHN will deliver more expansion in either platform at the cost of "higher" velocity. High velocity is always touted as the "Holy Grail" at hunting camp BS sessions but accuracy and consistency are rarely discussed among men in a hunting camp BS session. As the British Empire discovered in the mid 19th century, a pure lead bullet can be delivered to 900 meters with minute-of-man accuracy through a rifled musket. They didn't need hard bullets.

My preferred .357 Magnum deer hunting load in my Rossi M92 is a KTSWC bullet at 1300 fps. To accomplish this I cast in a harder alloy (Lyman #2 or heat treated WW metal) and sacrifice bullet expansion for range.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 August 2022

In case you are concerned about leading with softer alloy ... I once salvaged about 200 pounds of 22 rimfire lead and used it all up in 20 different rifles and revolvers ... No nuisance leading , cleaned with 4x steel wool after 50 to 100 shots,... Mostly 1600 fps and old Lyman black lube. Hope this helps.

Attached Files

2frogs posted this 30 August 2022

I appreciate all the advice,etc. I don't think I'm to concerned about the leading as much as I am about the muzzle velocity to take down a deer. I suppose I have listened to,to much bull from others about needing enough energy to inflick a g kill. I often think that 36 caliber round ball isn't going to fast but maybe that's totally opposite.

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 30 August 2022

Shot placement is what puts meat on the table, not bullet velocity. A hole in the boiler is a hole in the boiler whether it was made with a 1100fps bullet or a 3000fps bullet. A high lung shot with a .358" bullet is the same as a high lung shot with a bullet that expands to .400" after impact. It's still a high lung shot. Game animals don't watch the telly and do not know they are supposed to drop dead on the spot because you shoot them.

....and, a 36 round ball has seen the end of many a bad hombre.

 

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • 2frogs
  • Bud Hyett
2frogs posted this 30 August 2022

Well that's sheds a little more light on my question. Like I said, I've got to avoid all the gun shop gossip about needing such and such velocity. At my planned shooting distance,I was thinking that I didn't need much of 1200 or so. But let's remember that these loads will be coming from my 20 inch Rossi 92. I have been searching the web for cowboy action loads but haven't found anything. Thanks

Attached Files

Bud Hyett posted this 30 August 2022

Never shot a deer with a pistol, but shot several fox and a coyote with the .44 Magnum in a carbine. Never had a problem with a good heart-lung shot dropping the animal. The bullet went clear through for all instances and the animal dropped within fifty yards. 

I carried the rifle behind the seat of my truck for such usage as it was open season on coyotes. This was a Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum with a 240 grain soft linotype bullet. The bullet was an Ohaus three cavity copy of the Elmer Keith 429421 cast of used linotype, about 11 on the Brinell hardness scale. The powder charge was 20.0 grains 2400, Javelina NRA ALOX, and sized in a .430 die that only lubricated the .429* bullet.

 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 31 August 2022

Being new to deer hunting with cast bullets I need some advice. I have a 6 inch s@w 686 and Rossi 92 both in 357 cal. Bullet is 158 gr bhn of 13. Most shots will be maybe 60 yards or less. My question is what muzzle velocity should I be looking for as long as the accuracy is there. I appreciate any help you can offer. Thanks. Johnny
Johnny-
Here are several things to realize on the things you want to do. Using the same cartridge and load, the rifle will give you more than the handgun will.... they are not the same cartridge on output. What bullet you use makes a difference. I've killed many deer with the handgun... 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Mag, 45 Colt etc. If you use a solid with a lot of meplat, you have more killing power than a rounder nose projectile. I killed mine with the 357 Mag with a 145 gr. large hollow point. Solids need one rule to get the deer. good shot placement in a spot that will break down the deer where it doesn't run off and you can't find it. That happens even with full 44 Mag loads and a Keith SWC on soft area body shots. You kill the deer, but it's traveled about 400 yards and you can't find it. Break the deer down with a shoulder shot and you'll get it. Alloy hardness won't make a lot of difference there. A hollow point is another matter. If you're going over 1,350 fps, then a big hollow point works well regardless of alloy, IF it expands. The real problem with the 357 is one of low velocity. If the bullet is much below 1,200 fps, then excellent placement works better. It all depends on what you have versus what kind of a shot you're presented with.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • 2frogs
2frogs posted this 31 August 2022

Good information. This morning I shot a few at 50 yards (soft lead)158 gr with gas checks. MV from 1300 to 1600 no apparent leading. Even with the gas checks I think the soft bullets were more accurate than the hard cast. I cleaned the bore after 8 shots. I might be wrong but I think with the 30 twist the soft were more accurate. But then with a red dot it's almost impossible to get pin point accuracy. My groups average about 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 inch. Minute of deer,lol. This was from the Rossi 92. . By the way it's a green dot.

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Close