Monitoring .30-30 case stretch - Part 2

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  • Last Post 26 December 2024
Wilderness posted this 19 December 2024

In October 2023 I posted about an observation I was running on .30-30 case stretch.

The rifle is a Savage 1899. Brass is Winchester. FLS die is backed off to ensure cases headspace on the shoulder.  I do not trim, crimp or anneal. Cases are used for my hunting ammo.

Donated once-fired brass after sizing was measured with a vernier using the snap gauge method. The first shot was with circlips in place to take up all headspace while the shoulders blew out. The observation started with 134 cases, reduced after seven reloads to 106. Losses have been "in grass" and a few from tiny shoulder splits (old brass).

Initial loads were mostly full power LeveRevolution loads with 150 and 170 gn jacketed bullets, and 175 gn cast HP bullets with 748 powder (2190 fps).

The first (headspacing) shot lengthened the cases .001". I expect the expansion of the shoulder forward took up some of the lengthening impulse. After that, median case length increased by .017" over four shots, a little over .004" per shot.

Reloads 6 & 7, following on from the original post, were with a lower pressure load - 32 gns LeveRevolution with 175 gn cast HP (2180 fps). Median case length increased from 2.047" to 2.051" (.002" per shot). Was the lesser lengthening due to the lower pressure or the by now older cases?

Maximum case length is now 2.059", with a few still to fire, so far with no incipient case separations. I expect to encounter some incipient separations as the most stretched cases work their way past 2.060".

Stay tuned.

 

You are only as good as your library.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 December 2024

action stretch ??

is this an excuse to find a Ruger 3 in 30-30 ?

or is that too much of a stretch ?

ken

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Wilderness posted this 19 December 2024

Ken - no just brass getting longer when it goes through cycles of being reduced in diameter, then expanded, then reduced ....

Some Winchester cases I checked in my Ruger .308 - FLS but kept on the shoulder - were putting on about .006" per shot. Some softer berdan cases were doing closer to .010".

Yes, a Ruger .30-30 would be nice. I've owned a couple of Martini .303s, Martini & Alexander Henry .577/.450s,  and a .45-70 Roller, so not averse to SS - until I need the second shot.

You are only as good as your library.

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 December 2024

Since I started using the RCBS 30-30 X-Die Cases remain at the same OAL after sizing, I do not need to trim them any longer and case life is vastly increased.  I've adjusted the die to headspace on the shoulder of the tightest chamber of my three 30-30s.  That way I'm using the same ammo in all three rifles. 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Premod70 posted this 19 December 2024

Although I am not a fan of Ackley improved case forming a friend has a Winchester 54 and it is chamber for the 30-30 AI and from his reports solves the continual lengthening problem. Now for my usage I will stay with the standard chamber and reload the cases no more than two times and discard them to the salvage bucket. Much cheaper and safer than having to deal with case separations.

Dale Flinchum

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 December 2024

"Now for my usage I will stay with the standard chamber and reload the cases no more than two times and discard them to the salvage bucket. Much cheaper and safer than having to deal with case separations."

Had 20 cartridge cases s I loaded over 20 times with 28 gr H4895 under the 311041 which were sized with the X-Die w/o any sign of insipient case head separation.  Those were fired in both my M94s. Buying an X-die to use is a lot cheaper than tossing cases after just 2 firings.....

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Wilderness posted this 19 December 2024

Thanks Larry - no experience of the X-Die. My dies are Lyman.

I do have plenty of pickup brass for .30-30 so don't need to cry over case loss, but interested in how it happens all the same.

The Remington brass I use in my Marlin 336A Rippletop for mid-teens velocities lengthens about .0005" per shot and looks like it will last pretty much forever.

Premod70 - it's been about 40 years since I've had to deal with a case separation of my own.  My observation is that case stretch is variable and that some cases will go a lot sooner than others. By putting in the effort to get the cases headspacing on the shoulder at the start I can limit that stretch. Then I can catch the stretched cases early by getting the sun shining down inside the case and observing the stretch shadow (dark ring) if it's there. I'm happy to keep using my brass while it's still OK. Some incidental "lost in the grass" culling occurs along the way, since this is hunting ammo.

You are only as good as your library.

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Premod70 posted this 19 December 2024

I guess a thread on how to know a fired case's integrity would be an interesting read at this point.

Dale Flinchum

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Wilderness posted this 19 December 2024

Another observation on case stretch - I have noted individual cases stretching as much as .010" while the occasional one doesn't move at all. This is what I mean by "variable". This difference does not persist - the non-stretch may catch up on the next shot while the .010" stretch might follow up with as little as .001".

The last time I observed a "no stretch" was the first shot after I had cleaned the rifle. I presume there was a trace of Ed's Red in the chamber still. Conclude what you will.

You are only as good as your library.

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Premod70 posted this 20 December 2024

Rear locking actions are known for stretching and the resultant shorter life span of the case that is sometimes stretched to extremes in the firing process. The RCBS X-die does not add to case longevity as it's sole purpose over a standard full length size die is it's ability to shorten a case to a set length. The number of reloads one can get is primarily subject to the pressures exerted on the case; the higher the pressures the more strain/stretch is imparted. The case is a big variable in reloading and without factual knowledge the number of reloads is a best guess at best. Better to err on the side of safety, IMHO.

Dale Flinchum

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John Alexander posted this 20 December 2024

How does the RCBS Xdie work to lessen case stretch?

John

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Larry Gibson posted this 20 December 2024

The RCBS X-dies dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod.  The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts.  There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. The case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus, the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions.  This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 20 December 2024

here is a comprehensive test I conducted using the 308W X die.  The results with milder pressure loads as used in the 30-30 cartridge using the X-die to FL size resulted in similar, if not better, results.

LMG

RCBS X-DIES: A TEST; By Larry M. Gibson

 Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies.  All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column.  Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they?  My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?

The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family.  Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss.  My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This is only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus once fired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.

 Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring.  This crack is sometimes quite obvious.  Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection.  Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected.  But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber.  The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good!  The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?

 What causes this incipient head separation to happen?  Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure.  When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely.  The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance.  Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions.  When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first.  This pushes the shoulder forward.  The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck.  This increases the case length on each resizing considerably.  Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area.  The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”.  I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.

 Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance.  This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle.  It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire.  Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function.  Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.

 For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball.  A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.

 My M118 equivalent load is:

 BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball

PRIMER: Winchester WLR

POWDWER:  H4895 – 41gr

BULLET:  M118 174gr

CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”

 Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded.  Concentricity was checked after each loading.  Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.

 The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:

 Any sign of incipient head separation.

Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.

Split neck or body.

Case length exceeding 2.045”.

Loose primer pockets.

Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010&rdquo.

Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will

   be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)

Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.

All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.

The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear.  A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used.  All targets were at 100 yards.  I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string.  But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit chronographing after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected.  The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.

 The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions.  It’s really quite easy.  These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod.  The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts.  There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions.  This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

 I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks.  Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should.  Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube.  This should also remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.

 Throughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent.  After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth.  However, this did not adversely affect concentricity or accuracy.

 The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind.  This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A.  Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test.  I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not.  Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A.  The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”.  The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”, the average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”.  Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.

 The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation.  One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring.  There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened.  I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.

Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:

                                                

RESIZING---MINIMUM----MAXIMUM---INCREASE

------------CASE--------CASE-----IN CASE

------------LENGTH-----LENGTH----LENGTH

 

1-----------2.013------2.019----------

                                                         

2-----------2.021------2.025------.006             

 

3-----------2.025------2.027------.002

 

4-----------2.025------2.027------.000

 

5-----------2.022------2.027------.000

 

6-----------2.023------2.025----(-).002

 

7-----------2.023------2.025------.000

 

8-----------2.024------2.026------.001

 

9-----------2.024------2.027------.001

 

10----------2.025------2.027------.000

 

11----------2.025------2.027------.000

 

12----------2.024------2.026----(-).001

 

13----------2.025------2.026------.000

 

14----------2.024------2.027------.001

 

 

Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent.  Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A show a decrease in length!  At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001&rdquo of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward.  Again this did not affect concentricity or accuracy.

 

 Questions not addressed in this test:

 

1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?

 2. Case life of cases already fired several times?

 3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?

 4. Case life of civilian manufactured (Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?

 The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.

 My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:

 1. Clean cases

2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.

3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.

4. Clean cases.  Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).

5. Load on Dillon 550B.  Use a Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1.  This may or may not be necessary.  The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.

This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this.  I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life. 

 This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available.  I will buy more of them.  When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass I have thrown out … Oh well!

Good luck, good shooting and good hunting

 Addendum: I continued on with the test using the remaining nine cases.  On the 16th firing another case showed signs of incipient

Case head separation.  The other eight cases have been fired 20 times.  I doubt I’ll continue on as 20 firings per case is enough.

Concealment is not cover.........

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Wilderness posted this 21 December 2024

Larry - thorough as always, and fascinating stuff.

Also instructive that despite maintaining constant length, some cases have progressed to incipient separation, though at greater age.

I'm guessing what's happening is that the X-Die compresses the stretched brass back more or less to where it came from, but that compression is applied only partly to the stretched rear portion of the case. Some of it happens elsewhere, as evidenced by the eventually thickening necks. To the extent that near-web stretch is not completely negated, the rear of the case continues to stretch.

Alternately, the cycle of stretch-compress-stretch may not be as damaging as the usual cycle of stretch-stretch-stretch, though it does eventually (but more gradually) produce the same result.

It would be interesting to apply a borescope to observe the interior of a mid-life case before and after sizing with the X-Die versus a conventional die.

On the subject of compression I recently expanded some .30-30 cases to .375 using a series of M Dies, then sized them back to .30-30 (moving the shoulder forward). Going from .30-30 to .375 the cases shortened by .050", but coming back to .30-30 they regained only .025". An expander, if one existed, on the reverse collet principle might have produced a different result.

 

You are only as good as your library.

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Premod70 posted this 21 December 2024

Rather than write a long explanation about the RCBS X die here is a link to a thread that states my reasons for questioning it's usage; https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rcbs-x-die.7057126/

Dale Flinchum

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Larry Gibson posted this 21 December 2024

Obviously, none of the individuals [two maybe three] had set the die up correctly in that thread.  That is the reoccurring problem I see with the use of the X _die; misunderstanding how it works and improper set up. 

I currently have X Dies for 6 different cartridges [223, 280 Rem, 30-30, 308W, 30-06 & 8x57] and they all work as advertised.  They FL size, negate the need to trim and prevent insipient case head separation.   

As to thickening of the case neck I have not found that to be a problem, no more so than the uneven thickening of necks even neck sizing can cause.  If you don't think neck sizing can cause uneven thickening of the neck then turn some necks, leave the turner set the same, fire the cases then neck size and turn again.  Tou will find the turner removing more brass in places around the neck meaning the brass was thickened in those places.

I have not found the perceived thickening of the necks with X die use to be the problem many think it is.  In the extensive test above accuracy remained consistent throughout the testing from the first firing to the last.  In my match AR 223, M700 223, match M70 308W and Match M1903 30-06 I've found no difference in accuracy with cases FL sized with the X Dies vs FL Bonanza Bench rest die.  The difference is I don't have to trim and I get greater case life with the use of the X Die.

The X Dise, like any FL sizer, should be set up to size the case headspace [breach to shoulder] to fit the headspace of the rifle to be used in.  If loading the cartridges for use in multiple rifles, then set the sizing headspace to the smallest headspace of the rifles to be used in.  

In the 30-30, since the "headspace" is determined by the rim thickness, I see most reloaders just FL size the cases completely with the shell holder bumping the bottom of the FL sizer.  There is no need to do that as it sets the shoulder back too much and exacerbates the probability of incipient case head separation.  The FL die should be adjusted so the cartridge headspaces off the shoulder instead of the rim.    

The X-die does work and is very beneficial if one is FL sizing the fired cases.  Theorize  negative aspects all you want, but until you've actually used the X Die correctly it'll just be a theory.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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linoww posted this 21 December 2024

When I was shooting a fair amount of BR I would occasionally section my cases and where I noticed the brass thinning was above the web. So the brass that was flowing and making the case longer was slowly being squeezed from the base where it needed to be.This was with 30BR  cases with well over 100 firings.i used a shoulder bump die about every 10 firing  as it seemed to keep the case fitting better.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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MP1886 posted this 23 December 2024

Larry is not just talking without something to back him up. He done the leg work on this by actual testing and not just one cartridge. He has the data, specs, and proof. A set of RCBS X-Dies aren't that expensive to buy so get yourself a set and TRY to prove Larry wrong.  Set them up correctly and you won't. 

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pat i posted this 24 December 2024

Man I haven't trimmed a case in so long I don't even know if I have a trimmer anymore. And if I do I'd have no idea where to look. I always considered brass a consumable product and even at that I have brass I've been shooting for years without seeing a trimmer.The ones I have had to pitch were always because of the neck splitting and never because of case failure which Ive never had happen up to this point and I think I shoot alot. If I wouldn't have been lazy and taken the time to anneal the necks I think that I could have controlled the split necks too. I was under the impression that cases separated down by the web anyway and I don't know how any die could prevent that. I don’t shoot my lever guns very often so maybe they're a different beast. No idea but seeing how most if not all factory chambers I've measured have a good bit of excess length in the neck area I never gave that area much thought. All I know is that I never trimmed a case in my bench guns and shot the same case in my 06 plain base over 200 times before the neck split but the length was never an issue that I know of. But granted that was really low pressure. I guess I should mention that I use mostly Redding bushing or Wilson dies dies so dont have the button being dragged back through the neck when sizing. I imagine the Lee die that sizes the neck against a mandrel would accomplish the same thing but I've never used one so can't be sure.

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Wilderness posted this 24 December 2024

Pat - I'm with you on a couple of counts.

Yes, brass is a consumable, but I do try not to lose it, especially since I've gone to the trouble of getting the headspace on to the shoulder. But there is a perverse satisfaction in finally using up one lot of brass and starting off another.

And necks - my .30-30 chamber lengths are 2.120" and 2.150", while cases start out at 2.025" or so. Long before the cases have stretched to such lengths they will have been culled for incipient separations (or something else, or been lost). Consequently I don't need to trim for chamber length, and since I don't crimp, I don't need to trim for that either. Not crimping also means no case mouth splits. And all of that means I can run little experiments like the current one!

You are only as good as your library.

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fa38 posted this 24 December 2024

An option.

Send a couple of fired cases and your full length die to Forster and I think Hornady. They will lap their die to better match your cases to your chamber.  I think it has to be a die they make.

You might also find a couple of people on this forum who could do the same for your dies.

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