This post is for John Carlson. It may be of interest to others as well.
I have inherited my father-in-laws deer rifle. It is a sporterized M1917 Enfield. The sight has been machined off of the receiver and it has been drilled and tapped for Weaver scope bases. The barrel is original, but has been shortened to 22 inches. The stock has been replaced with a sporter style stock.
My question is can I use it in the military modified class in the postal matches?
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Sounds like it should meet the criteria:
[3] Modified Scope - Any military service rifle issued to any nation and legally sold as surplus in the US and with issue action and barrel. Stocks may be either issue stocks, modified military stocks or sporter stocks. Modified military or sporter stock forearms may not be wider or flatter on the bottom than the original stock issued for that rifle. Modified military or sporter stocks may not weigh more than the original issued stock. Any trigger and scope up to a maximum of 6 power may be used. Glass bedding is allowed. The barrel may be shortened to a minimum of 20 inches unless that rifle was issued as less then
The tricky part can be the stock forearm measurements meeting the "wider or flatter" requirement. Aftermarket sporter stocks often don;t make the grade, all my Springfield stocks have needed son heavy duty sanding. Someone who has one can provide you with the measurements.
Neither I nor any of the match directors I know keep a list with the specs for all the different rifles that show up at our matches. Just try to make it look kinda like a military stock and you'll be fine.
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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To me, the flat bottom sporter stock is a dead give away that doesn't qualify as even being close to legal. Width can be quibbled over but seldom does anyone go around with calipers double checking them if they are nice and round.
Scott Ingle
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Been down this road and needless to say it isn’t a good rule. Since any military rifle can be shot then the aftermarket stocks in a modified class should confirm to a basic measurement. Such as the other definition of military found for hunting class. A flat bottom sporter isn’t a dead giveaway. Old Western Scrounger ( website ) sold surplus military stocks for the Mauser 98. These had paperwork verifying originality. They were used as training rifles for snipers. So these stocks would not be illegal. They were wider and had flat bottoms.
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Training rifle stocks do not qualify as those rifles were not "issued".
I do agree that we could reduce the confusion by adopting the hunter class "2 inches and convex cross section" rule. Trouble is "convex" is pretty loose. Perhaps add a maximum radius. Keep in mind the new rule must not confer a competitive advantage for future shooters.
I'd be glad to work with anyone wishing to propose a change.
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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Thank you all for your responses. My father-in-law purchased the rifle already sporterized in 1946, and I assume the stock dates to pre WW2. The forearm is skinny and rounded as was common in that time period. Watch for me in the postals this summer.
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Boschloper, good luck and have fun.
Scott Ingle
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These stocks where not only used to train snipers they were used afterwards in combat. You don’t think they train a sniper then take the stock off and make them use the other version. Modified class means modification, Not issue. All military rifles compete against each other. If one country used a narrow stock but yet another used a wider stock would it not seem logical the wider version would be more practical for bench shooting ? If only each model military shot against the same make type rifle it would indeed be fare. Some maximum width has to be determined. There shouldn’t be two definitions for a military rifle. Yes some work needs done in this area of our rules.
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Shootcast- your earlier posts made me look for that 98 stock you referred to; curiosity, cats killed...you know. Between the internet, my mauser and sniper books has resulted in nothing. If you are adamant about this being the loophole to need a rules change; please give us the skinny on these mythical creatures. Who made them? How many? When? Pictures are great and would help prove your case if you can show us combat photos of someone actually using them. Otherwise, we all kind of understand the spirit of the rules as they are.
Scott Ingle
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Training rifles, Sniper rifles, Competition rifles for marksmanship teams, Drill rifles, and a plethora of other rifles used for special applications were never considered "Issue" rifles. Our rule is predicated on having our rifles at least resemble the weapons our infantry carried into combat.
As I said earlier, in the interest of simplification and reducing confusion, if anyone wishes to propose a change to the rules I will be happy to assist.
One caveat: Any change must not confer a competitive advantage for future shooters over that enjoyed by previous shooters.
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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I simply pointed out that the rule isn’t fare for modified class. If snipers aren’t military than I suppose these stocks aren’t issue. You might try researching the website and ask about those stocks. I’m sure someone there could give you all the details. Pretty sure you’re not going to find any for sale. Just like Ollies when there gone there gone.
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Maybe I’m reading it wrong but I think there is confusion about what is legal for modified classes while referring to issue. My understanding is issue class is the standard rifle carried by infantrymen while modified can be any rifle that meets the stated rules.
Dale Flinchum
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My original question pertained to using my father-in-law’s sporterized M1917 in the modified class. The replacement stock has a very slender forearm, much more slender than the M1917 stock, and meets all the other requirements spelled out in John Carlson’s reply.
The rabbit hole that this post ended up going down was not what I intended.
I will be shooting my O3A3 in the issue class and the M1917 in the modified class.
Wayne
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The issue is the requirements for the size of the forearm. Currently we require that a modified forearm be based on the measurements of an issue forearm for that model. Since the forearm for a Mauser is narrower than that for a Springfield it has to have a different stock (which translates to a lot of sanding). Folks have occasionally commented but no one has yet proposed a change to the rule.
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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