Match Rules

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Oldman 1950 posted this 3 weeks ago

I have a question that maybe someone can answer. I have a Ruger M77 RSI (full stock International) that is factory stocked. The rules for Hunting Class as well as for Production Class state that a rifle must be produced in at least 1000 units a year. The Ruger M77's are produced at over 1000 units a year but not with the international stocks. The rifle will weigh under the stated 9.5 lbs. limit. The caliber is 7x57 Mauser.

What class will this rifle be legal in? 

Thank You,

A. J. Palik

Any day you wake-up sucking air will be a good day

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John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

A.J.,

Good question. I am confident  that none of our match directors would reject a Ruger 77 in any of its variations as long as it didn't come from a factory custom shop.  The possible exception would be if the variation imparted some advantage such as a wide flat bottom stock for Hunting Rifle class.  A lightweight rifle with a full stock certainly wouldn't fall into that category. Nice to see you intend to compete with a rifle that looks like a hunting rifle.  I will look forward to seeing how the 7x57 performs.  Dan Hudson won HR class at the nationals a few years back with a 7-08 so he may have helpful information.

John

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

Might get in trouble with this one!

Where did the magical 1,000 units a year come from? Someone sitting around the table during a rules discussion said “let’s use a thousand units minimum”? What factory is going to tell a stranger on the phone or in an e-mail how many units are made per year? I never heard of anyone checking (from the CBA) going through the machinations to verify the factory production unit count. 

How many other optional stocks are available for a given model and how are the hairs split to verify that every optional stock arrangement configuration fits “the rule”.

My guess….the rifle model is in the factory catalog and therefore “it must fit the minimum rule”.

The CBA needs increased match participation and we shouldn’t scare people off with hard to define limitations of this type. Of more significant limitation is disallowing rifles from a maker’s Custom Shop.

I’m guessing John Alexander will tell me I’m all wet!

Tom

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

FWIW, I remember this being discussed during the creation of the "Hunter Rifle" class. I was told that the 1000 rifle rule was to stop the "boutique" rifle builders from using Panda and other benchrest parts for the original "Production Rifle" class in the 1980's. 

A Ruger 77 is a Ruger 77 if that is the way it came from the factory. I don't know that there is a factory "custom shop" anymore since Remington is closed. 

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Bud Hyett posted this 3 weeks ago

I was part of this discussion years ago, acting as a sounding board by giving feedback to Ed Doonan. The basis for the criteria was any modification a person could do in a garage shop. 

To me this was factory action as sold (no truing), factory stock (glass-bedding and shortening or longer recoil pad for fit allowed), factory trigger (can be set lighter to any safe pull),

The next criteria was being able to recrown since this can be done with a brass screw and lapping compound. Ed spotted a crooked crown on a Model 70 Varminter .22-.250 I'd just bought new. A few minutes work and it went from improved cylinder to sub-minute. 

The other criteria was allowing a factory barrel to be set back and rechambered when worn. We both knew a competitor with a Remington 700VLS factory chamber visibly off-center that shot well. When he set it back and rechambered after many thousand rounds, it was still visibly off-center and still shot well.

As to the number of rifles sold, this became a farce. None of the manufacturers would tell us as they kept this as proprietary information. And I respect their thought. 

I agree with Tom, the CBA needs increased match participation. The thought these modifications can be done at home in the garage by the shooter with a minimum of tooling should be the guideline.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Oldman 1950 posted this 3 weeks ago

If I understand things right, I can glass-bed the stock and lighten the trigger pull to any safe pull weight as long as it is a factory trigger, NO blueprinting the action or changing the barrel except Recrowning. A new recoil pad is OK.

 

A. J. Palik

Any day you wake-up sucking air will be a good day

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Bud Hyett posted this 3 weeks ago

Yes

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

A.J.,

You have it exactly right.

Ric sez -- "FWIW, I remember this being discussed during the creation of the "Hunter Rifle" class. I was told that the 1000 rifle rule was to stop the "boutique" rifle builders from using Panda and other benchrest parts for the original "Production Rifle" class in the 1980's. "

You have a good memory. We had the same reason for HR class that Ed and the others did in the 80's. Tom is right that manufacturers won't tell but that isn't the point. It is in the rules for Ric's point above.

We would all like to see more match shooters but I don't think the 1000 rule is likely to scare off  anybody, but if you think otherwise we maybe should consider a rule change.

In my opinion we have other ways we could increase match participation but that would take work on our part and most people just want somebody to provide a match so they can shoot and go home. Our match directors are saints by comparison to most of our competitors. I know first hand most of us don't even tell them thanks as we hurry to pack up and leave.  Maybe a thread discussing how to attract more  shooters would be useful. But eventually it comes down to somebody doing some work. 

John

 

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Shuz posted this 3 weeks ago

I have a Ruger mdl 77 tang safety in .250 Savage that I put a Carlson fiberglass stock on many years ago. What class of CBA competition would this now fit in?

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

 It would now be a "Heavy Rifle" unless you put it back into a Ruger 77 tang safety stock. It is not "Production" nor is it a "Hunting Rifle". 

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Shuz posted this 3 weeks ago

Thanks Ric, I think I traded that stock off about 30 years ago. However I do have a 77 tang safety mdl in .22-250 that I could swap stocks with. Then I'd be legal for either Hunter class or Production class, right?

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John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

If the barreled action including the trigger are the originals from Ruger you should be good for HR if under 9.5 with scope and 12 for Production.  I am pasting the HR rule below for those interested.  All the rules are  on the CBA website.

John

Hunting Rifle Class – The rifle may be either a, non-custom shop, hunting rifle produced in at least 1,000 units per year, or a surplus military rifle that has been for sale to the public. It must be in original factory condition except for the following allowed changes.  The original trigger may be adjusted.  The stock may be shortened up to 1.5 inches, a recoil pad added, rebedded, and the barrel channel opened to allow the barrel to free float but must retain its factory contour.  Parts may be replaced with equivalent factory parts. The barrel may be shortened up to 1 inch to allow a new crown but must retain its factory contour.  Replacement stocks are allowed on military rifles but the forend must be less than 2 inches wide and have a convex cross section. Additional allowable changes to military rifles that clearly don’t confer advantages to the shooter include replacing safeties, floorplates, trigger guards, and bolt handles, as well as polishing, blueing, installing sight bases and removing stock attachments along with the military stock.  Factory sights may be removed and any scope may be used.  Maximum weight is 9.5 pounds including scope and any removable magazine.  Any changes not specifically allowed above are illegal and will disqualify the firearm

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

"Replacement stocks are allowed on military rifles but the forend must be less than 2 inches wide and have a convex cross section."

So you can replace stocks on commercial (Ruger 77) rifles?

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John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

Ric,

I have been reading your question over and over and don't understand. The rule seems to me to say"military rifles" and nothing about other rifles.

John

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

If it is a "factory" rifle it must have its original stock, except recoil pad, free floated barrel and glass bedded. Replacing the original stock means it isn't production and doesn't meet the rule for hunting rifles. IMHO

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

That would be my opinion, for what that is worth. I am no longer a match director and have no official say.

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John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

It is more than your opinion, there is nothing in the rules that let you switch to a different stock for civilian rifles in HR or Production.  Switching stocks on military rifles within the limits stated is allowed.  The production class rule doesn't speak to the question of different stocks on military rifles.  This is probably something we should remedy before such a questions comes up.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 3 weeks ago

it should seem kind of unnecessary, but as long as we are adding words, i suppose we should clarify that>>

it is ok in hunter and production to exchange factory stocks and factory barrels as long as they were available for that original model.

i only bring this up because the rules now say you can't do that, in strict interpretation.

the above coming from someone that hates rules in general ...

ken

 

 

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