Lube Discussion With Glenn Latham

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pat i posted this 4 weeks ago

I recently asked Glenn if he was still using a 3-1 BW/ATF mix for lube and he wrote me an excellent email back I thought I'd share. I mixed a batch up but haven't had a chance to try it against the Emmerts I'm using now but it's in my plans. His reply is below.

"Pat, yes, I still use it. Norm Duesterhoeft and Steve Hurst both mentioned it some years ago, and as I was looking for a replacement for M&N, and it was simple, I tried it. I think it’s a little better than M&N, doesn't take a clean bore long to settle down. Like sometimes the fouler will be in the group. That's after cleaning with Shooter's Choice, different cleaners will probably respond differently. Ed's Red should be an excellent cleaner for it since it contains ATF.

I've never made any Ed's Red, but made a "lite" version of just ATF and Mineral Spirits 50/50. I've been using it to clean 22 RFs and am happy with it, first shot often being right there (I always leave the bore wet after cleaning, even if shooting right away). I should try it in my CF CB rifles, but haven't yet.

The 3-1 mix is pretty soft, just like M&N, so I've stayed with it. I think Ed Harris goes 4-1. The mix doesn't matter, whatever firmness you like.

The only other lube I use is LBT. I think LBT is better at preventing leading, but can’t really say for sure. It’s certainly best in balls-to-the-wall loads! I haven’t used BW/ATF over about 1950 fps, but it was good there in the 270, but the 270 has never leaded with anything. Like any CB load, bullet fit is key, and with good bullet fit I haven’t had leading issues with BW/ATF.

I was using BW/ATF in Bullseye loads shooting indoors, and someone asked me what lube I was using. After I told him he said, “No wonder it smells like a hot transmission.”

I was talking with Bud Hyett at the ’24 NT and mentioned M&N. He said it was toilet rings made in Mexico."

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OU812 posted this 4 weeks ago

Valvoline Restore and Protect engine oil is designed to remove up to 100% old engine deposits (carbon) and prevent future deposits. They make a lighter 5w-20 that might work better than ATF. Mobil also has their version of restore and protect. This is newer oil technology.

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pat i posted this 4 weeks ago

You might be right but like Joe Brennan's said in the past you can use anything from ear wax to bacon fat to make a lube. Since Glenn gives the BW/ATF mix a thumbs up I'll try that one. Testing out other EASY TO MAKE WITH READILY AVAILABLE COMPONENT concoctions would be welcome but at the moment I'm booked in case anyone wants to get their feet wet.

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Wm Cook posted this 4 weeks ago

Lube is one of many things that I’m ignorant about.

Could someone give a dumbed down explanation of what 3-1 BW/ATF is, where the material comes from, how it’s put together, stored and how it’s applied,.

All I’ve ever used is White Label’s Carnauba Blue in a 450 Lyman. This lube requires a heating pad under the sizer.

Someone just gave me an old Lyman 45 lube sizer that I can work with.

For me, multiple shots to settle the bore down is a common need before I shoot groups. Thanks Bill Cook.

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pat i posted this 4 weeks ago

Bill it's 3 parts beeswax to 1 part Dextron III auto transmission fluid, or probably any ATF to be honest. I melted it together in a double boiler. Then you can either pan lube or pour the melted lube in your lubesizer. Personally I pan lube using my Emmerts so will do the same with the 3-1. As you can read in his reply he uses 3-1 and added Ed Harris uses 4-1, the first number being beeswax. 3-1 being a softer lube than 4-1. I like these kind of formulas because I like a softer lube at the velocities Im shooting my plain base at and hope any remaing lube, if there is any, flies off the bullet when it leaves the barrel. By the way I measured by weight not volume in case that matters.

I've read a lot of lube recipes and quite a few include things no longer available or go about it ike you're making rocket fuel. Emmerts is easy with common easily found ingredients. 3 or 4 to one is easier still and as long as there's bees and automobiles the ingredients will be around.

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Wilderness posted this 4 weeks ago

An outlier - when I was playing around with the lead to brass bonding thing, some bullets which SHOULD have bonded given they seemingly met the preconditions, DID NOT BOND when the lube was beeswax and synthetic two-stroke oil.

The preconditions are that the bullets emerge from the sizing and lubing, or lubing and sizing, with lube-free driving bands. I can only guess that traces of the two-stroke oil remained on the bands, or that it found its way in there after seating.

I did not test beeswax and ATF, but given the properties of ATF I wonder now if it too might leave the bullets bond-free.

You are only as good as your library.

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Wm Cook posted this 4 weeks ago

Thanks Pat, appreciate it. That looks doable and simple enough. If I got it right you just get water boiling in the lower pot, then set the smaller pot which has x grains of ATF and 3x grains of bees wax. Once it cools, but still pourable, pour the mix into the cavity of the 45 Lyman I mentioned. I even have the Dextron III already on hand from Ed’s recipe for bore cleaner.

I’ve seen signs that the lube I’m using hardens over time. For the past year or so I only cast what I’ll shoot in the next couple weeks. I don’t have confidence in the accuracy of bullets that were lubed a year or two ago. No data to back that up, just observations made while loading lubed bullets that have been on the shelf a long time.

How do you store 3-1 BW/ATF bullets.

My practice is to lay bullets in layers in a ~4x4” plastic parts box and separate the layers with wax paper. The boxes I use hold 24 per layer (.30 cal, 200g). Best case is that they’ll be seated in brass ready for the range within a day of lubricating. Thanks again. B Cook.

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pat i posted this 4 weeks ago

I hope Glenn sees this and addresses some of your questions. I just made my first batch the other day and pan lube.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 4 weeks ago

Bill, the BW/ATF lube does not get hard or dry out.  Store it however is convenient to you.  I bought a 4-cup glass measuring cup and use it for mixing lube.  Fill it about 1/2 full of beeswax, melt it, add 1/3 the volume of the beeswax of ATF.  Like I said the proportions are NOT critical; mix it until you get the consistency you want. Easy peasy.

For your current lube that hardens over time, try adding about 10% of lanolin.  I did that to my Emmert's lube (for black powder) and it did the trick.

Glenn

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Wilderness posted this 4 weeks ago

Bill

For storage I use the plastic CCI .22 Magnum boxes that keep turning up in the bins at the range. Longer .30" bullets go 50 to the box, short ones (#311008) get two layers = 100.

The plastic CCI .22LR x 100 round boxes hold 80 x .30" (either length).

You are only as good as your library.

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Wm Cook posted this 4 weeks ago

Appreciate that Glen. I’m going to find some bee’s wax and give it a try. Pat, thanks for starting the thread. Bill Cook

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Aaron posted this 4 weeks ago

Some of my BP lube projects have included Coconut Oil, Buffalo tallow, Jojoba oil, and of late - raw Kokum Butter. All being mixed with bees wax of course. These mixtures all went into a lubrasizer for lubing. I don't lube until I am ready to seat the bullets in the brass.

They all sure smell good when fired. Especially the coconut oil lube. It's like being in Tahiti. I should add that I only use polar lubricants in my BP shooting.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Idahocaster posted this 4 weeks ago

Aaron, at the risk of displaying my ignorance for all to see, what is a polar lubricant?

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Aaron posted this 4 weeks ago

Good question. A polar material has within its chemical structure, polar molecular bonds among them, which for black powder lubricant, residue softening, and cleaning with a water based solution, makes a desirable quality. 

In simple terms, polar means oppositely charged, and non-polar means equally charged. Covalent bonds can be polar or non-polar. To understand the difference between polar and non-polar bonds, it is essential to comprehend electronegativity. In layman terms, both water and some lubricants are polar and make cleaning the residue with water a snap.

From the internet....

Importance of Polar Bonds

Polar bonds are crucial in determining the physical properties of substances, such as solubility, boiling points, and interactions with other molecules. They play a significant role in the behavior of polar solvents, like water, which can dissolve other polar substances effectively.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Wm Cook posted this 4 weeks ago

If I could throw in another couple questions:

1) What independent variables are measured to tell you if formula “A” performs better than formula “B”.

2) Has anyone experienced a cause and effect between bullet lube and the number of fouling shots required before you could shoot for record? Thanks, B Cook.

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Aaron posted this 4 weeks ago

I CRINGE when I see suggestions to use this or that to clean your BP firearm which are non-polar inorganic compounds, or when BP lubricants contain petroleum products like motor oil or ATF fluid. When used with other inorganic cleaning solutions, these create a Frankenstein Monster of chemical soups and residue which CORRODE or otherwise degrade the metals on the firearm. Windex is the most often suggested and is in fact, the WORST solvent to use on a BP firearm, or any firearm for that matter. Actual chemists can work out the resultant compounds left on your guns if using these solvents - especially on BP firearms with their unique after firing residue compounds.

Folks with names like Hatchet Jack or Tombstone Larry who have no understanding of chemistry, like 98% of the populace, may suggest using corrosive compounds on BP firearms because so-and-so did for years and had no adverse effects on their guns (which the other guys take for granted never actually seeing the guns it was used on).

Now with modern smokeless lubes and cleaning solvents, the sky is the limit. The residue includes all kinds of non-polar chemicals and good Lord - Metals as well. Anything that will bond with and remove copper, zinc, nickel, nitroglycerine residue and a host of other unpronounceable stuff is fair game. 

I personally love Hoppes #9 because chicks love that smell which is much better than Aqua Velva or Brutt. It makes them horny as all get out. So it's Hoppes #9 for me followed up with CLP. Heck, we used to use gasoline and kerosene in the USMC to clean our 1911's and M14 & M16 rifles. Communists didn't give a rats arse.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 4 weeks ago

If I could throw in another couple questions: 1) What independent variables are measured to tell you if formula “A” performs better than formula “B”.

The best lubricant is NO LUBRICANT. Paper Patch your bullets. surprised

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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pat i posted this 4 weeks ago

1) What independent variables are measured to tell you if formula “A” performs better than formula “B”.

Shoot em against each other. The one that groups the best performs better. I think trying to figure this stuff out with a pencil and paper instead of at the range is going to be an excersize in frustration.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 3 weeks ago

Pat's right, you can only tell by shooting.  I have found different bore cleaners will require more fouling shots to settle the bore down, as well as different bullet lubes.  Lots of variables to play with.

Glenn

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Is A better than B? It really depends on what your lubricant is supposed to do. High heat or low heat? 22" or 32" barrel? Fouling shot variation? Double base or single base powder? Velocity used? Alloy used?

All are variables and I don't know of one lubricant that satiates them all. I shoot for decent group size with no leading along the length of the barrel in average NC summer heat and winter cold. For smokeless, Whites 50/50 works wonders. For BP, SPG or my homemade stuff works fine. Just no oil based products in my BP lube. I suspect SPG may have some non-polar ingredient in it but do not know that for certain. Stuff works well however.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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