Loading heavy .225 cast bullets for accuracy

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Wm Cook posted this 30 June 2021

Other than the work Beagle did with 58 & 60 grain Lyman molds (found in CastPics) I can’t seem to find much information on loading for heavy weight .22’s. My goals are single purpose focused on BR accuracy out of a bolt action production class .222 Remington. That said, I’m sure that .223 data would point me in the right direction.

My question is what powders to use shooting 60 to 80 grain bullets around 1,400 to 1,700 fps. If someone would say that “A” grains of “B” powder gave them “C” velocity would be a big help. I can start low and work up.

The two molds that I’m starting with are the NOE’s 225-61-FN A2 and the 225-72-RN GC B1. The bearing surface is good on those two and the one in nine twist will stabilize them.

The CBA BR results section shows a .223 shot by J Alexander using a 84 grain D.Mos (?) with 5.5 grains of TiteGroup at 1,450 fps (chrno). That was in 2019. He also shot in 2018 with an 84 grain D.Mos with 6.5 grain 4756 @ 1,430 fps (est). In 2019 he shot a .758 agg at 100 yards and a grand agg of .866”. He broke .5” on the fourth match of the 100 yard agg in the 2019 match.

So I have some precedent for wanting 1,450 to 1,700 fps with 62 to 80 grain bullets.

Match results can only give you a glimpse of what’s going on so I’m hoping that there’s someone who would share their powder recommendations for shooting heavy .22 cal bullets for accuracy in a .222 or a .223 bolt gun. Thanks, Bill.

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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Wm Cook posted this 30 June 2021

So far I’v both lateral’d Beagle’s data from Beagle’s .223 work to the .222 Rem and then extrapolated from bullets weighing 56 to 59 grain to the 61 grain NOE. These have not been shot and choreographed. This is just the start of my “to do” list.

222 Remington & the NOE 61 * 8.0 grains of LilGun to 10.5 grains or 1700 - 1800 fps * 8.5 grains of 2400 to 11.5 grains or 1700 - 1800 fps * 5.5 grains of Unique to 9.0 grains or 1700 - 1800 fps

With the heavier 72 to 84 grain cast bullets maybe a slower powder like 4227, 4198 or 5744 might be in order.

I never thought I’d say this but shooting sub-sonic .22 cal under 1.5 MOA looks to be a piece of cake compared to sub .5 MOA. Wish me luck.

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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John Alexander posted this 30 June 2021

Wm Cook,

I have written several articles for the Fouling Shot on the subject of heavy 22 cast bullets.  If you are a long time member you have probably already seen them.  If not, the most relevant to your questions are mostly in the CD of TFS from 2008 to 2015 on sale in the CBA store. I also have writings in Joe Brennen's books also on sale in the store. 

Since your question seems to be mostly about powders, I will comment on that.  As you see in the match reports, I mostly use fast burning powers. TiteGroup, 700X , AA #2, and such.  We know  slower burning powders get the best results out of full power jacketed loads with heavy for caliber bullets. Slow burning  powders are also seem to be best for and high velocity cast loads as well. Some have speculated that slower powders give a mor gently push to the bullet. Therefore it seems logical to use slower powders for long 22 cast bullets.  I have tried Varget, 4227, 4198, 5744, 4895 and such but have found for the velocities I seem to get the best accuracy, the fast burning powders work just as well, or better.   Maybe there is some virtue to kicking a CB in the butt (more early upset perhaps) than pushing it gently. I have also had excellent results with 4756 but of course that has been discontinued.

You probably know that for  long bullets in 22 centerfire rifles ithat most 22 calibers, except the 223, as well as some 223s, have twists too slow to stabilize them -- usually 1 in 14.  Manufacturers have begun to smarten up, so maybe more recent 222s have faster twists but trying to use a 1 in 14 will lead to frustration.  This sorry fact of life forced me to change from 222 to 223 nearly forty years ago.  You imply that your 222 has a 1 in 9 twist. If so, who manufactured it.  I have always prefered the 222.

If you have specific questions I will be glad to give you my opinion.

If you haven't already read my TFS articles on heavy 22 cast bullet I could send you one if you PM me your emai address.

John

P.S. Where can I find "Beagles data" that you mention?

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Wm Cook posted this 01 July 2021

 

Thanks for the suggestions John.  I’ve only been a member of the CBA since I stepped away from  NBRSA Centerfire Benchrest Competition (100/200 yards) last year.  Shooting jacketed bullets in group benchrest was an invaluable education on learning how to read flags, handload, develop bench technique and the value of working with quality equipment. 

My hats off to you for that <.5” group you shot in 2019 on the fourth relay.  I’m sure you don’t remember shooting that group.  The only groups that Benchrest group shooters remember are the ones that you kept decent despite rough conditions.  And doing it with a .22 cal makes it all the more fun. 

Beagle’s articles can be found in Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 in CastPics.  If those links don't work I'll try again.  Beagle's done solid work and he’s been there, done that and bought the T shirt.  Both he and Gibson are highly structured students of ballistics over on the Cast Boolits forum.  Larry is on this side as well. He just did a comparison of small pistol to small rifle primers with stress test and it was an eye opener. 

If I could get a copy of what you wrote for the TFS would be a big help.  I did find where to get hard copies in the CBA store so if you could point me to the right journal #’s I would appreciate it.  It’s a virtual desert out here finding heavy cast .224 information. 

I’m at home with using fast powders with cast and with the information you’ve so far given me and along with the articles you wrote I should be off to a good start.  So much of the enjoyment of cast is how you can experiment with different powders to find good results.  Then you throw in variables that range from bench technique to alloy hardness and you found a playroom that will keep you entertained for years. 

I had to go outside of production for the .222 barrel and its coming from Shilen.  I’ll be shooting out of class but I’ve always been fond of the .222 with its accuracy and zero recoil.  I could never get a .223 to shoot as well as a .222.  Maybe I was just not good enough to load for the .223.  The rig is a Savage 10F with weight coming in just under 12lbs.  If I screw the original 308 barrel on it would be legal.  But not with the Shilen.  Kansas City is only about 3 hours from St Louis and I've been in touch with Richard Brinkman and I would like to start shooting cast Benchrest in 2022.  Thanks for the help.  Bill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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John Alexander posted this 02 July 2021

Bill,

Thanks for the links to the Beagle link.

The small five shot group means little of course.  As you know if you shoot long enough you will get  a super small group.  I was very pleased with the aggregate that day - but that also has some luck involved, but not so much.

I am sure that learning to read the flags can best be learned with a super accurate rifle.  Probably harder with a rifle that shoots groups that may be bigger than the correction needed.  i'm sure that skill will serve you well in CB competition.  I could only wiin at 100 yards when I was shooting a bullet similar to the NOE 70 grainer with blunt nose.  But then my flag reading ability was and is questionable at best.

You are right there is little or no published reloading information on heavy cast bullets.  Before the Army started trying to shoot high power with the M-16 and had to go to bullets with decent BC there were no factory 22 centerfires with other than 1 in 14 or 1 in 16 twists which would only stabilize very short bullets. The army rifle teams showed that there were virtues to fast twists and long bullets and slowly manufacturers started putting faster twists on their 223s to so they could shoot  some surplus ammyo (It's pretty bad when private industry is slower to catch on than the backward looking military.)  Until then the 22 cast bullet mold available with the highest BC was probably the 225414 with a BC of 0.12.   Now and then a shooter would  show up at a CBA match with a 22 but if there was any wind they were hopeless.

I would be glad to send some of my articles if you will PM me your email address. The ones I can think of were in TFS # 231, 232, and 233.

John

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Wm Cook posted this 03 July 2021

John I PM'd you my information.  For some obscure reason I'm tone deaf to looking at pm's from the forum.  

Shooting small groups is a lot of fun but like you said, its the agg that counts. 

Although that said, if you can stick a screamer in there somewhere it sure helps the agg doesn't it. 

Funny.  Sometimes I think the wind pushes the bullet into making a group making it smaller than it should have been and once in a while the wind pushes the bullet out of the group.  You just gotta smile and reload.  Thanks for all of the input.

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 July 2021

3 shot groups includes a lot of luck ... 5 shots some luck.  10 shots not much luck... ugly reality sets in. 

still fun though, after 76 years .....

ken

 

 

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Wm Cook posted this 04 July 2021

How long is the list for “things that can wrong here” between the nut behind the trigger and the target when shooting groups? If Pat McManus shot groups he could write a belly busting laugher on that one.

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 July 2021

interesting about wind and other " errors " pushing some hits into your group ... and others out of your group ...

but if your group is really small .... think dot .... it is very unlikely that the stray bullet goes into the group ... nearly all the possible area it might wander into is outside the dot group ....

in fact, it isn't until the group is so large that it approaches infinity  ... and the circumference of your smaller group approaches a straight line ...that the chances of the stray hit has even a 50 per cent chance of landing in your smaller group ...

so::  like life, you are screwed ...

so to speak ...

i usually ignore the odds ...

ken

 

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John Alexander posted this 05 July 2021

I suppose the list of thinga that can go wrong is almost endless and I think I have committed a good sshare of them. 

On the other hand, most of us carefully guard against a bunch of imaginarly zombies that would make no difference if we stiopped doing them and spent the time on something else. 

As most on the forum know, but don't necessarily agree, my list of fixes for maginary dangers include weighing powder, cases and bullets, measuring concentricity, cleaning primer pockets and inside necks, rejecting match bullets for small wrinkles or slightly rounded edges, etc. 

Most CBA  shooters, not to mention IBS shooters, do most of these but none have been shown by well designed experimets to amount to any more than wearing your lucky hat. A pork pie hat with match medals seems to work better than most.

John

 

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Wm Cook posted this 05 July 2021

Ken, I’ve read a lot of your post and I respect your opinion but I believe fliers can go into a group. Obviously not as often as fliers going outside the group but it does happen.

Qualification statement here. We’re talking small groups with jacketed bullets grouping under .150”, cast under .500”. If you’re talking about jacketed groups >1.000 or cast groups >2” all bets are off.

Bullets can “fly” into a group when a combination of mistakes cancel themselves out. If you miss a wind push at the same time you make a bench discipline mistake you could still stick a small group that wasn’t deserved.

Many times I’ve shot a nice group for record despite missing a wind shift or I knew the rig didn’t track back cleanly on one of my shots. My first thought is “boy, I got away with murder on that one.” After record groups are shot I mentally replay the group and I can pretty much tell if it was luck or skill that they all went into a nice round group.

Agree with John about doing the right thing, the right way, the same way, every time for every controllable variable. So many thing can get your skirt up that you have to control what you can control. Consistently being able to shoot small groups takes a lot of work and concentration.

This is absolutely overkill for most all shooters. If you don’t need this accuracy don’t sweat it. We’re all out there to have fun.

Although we would never admit to it, there are some of us that believe all 5 shots are supposed to go through the same hole. I guess that’s why I shoot bolt guns.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. Dam passionate about accuracy. I’ll get off my soapbox now.

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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