HiTek not sticking HARD alloy

  • 452 Views
  • Last Post 2 weeks ago
watson posted this 3 weeks ago

Howdy folks. I have alloyed something up that's in the 20 bhn range non-heat treated.

83.8% Pb, 5.1% Sn, 10.7% Sb, 0.35% As ~20 bhn

I have some "Zombie Green" HiTek powder that's about 3-4 years old that has been sealed, sitting in a very comfortable room temperature room all this time. I have coated successfully with it 3-4 years ago on a very different alloy.

This blend casts a ~244gr bullet from a 255gr Lee, 0.452 mold that is super smooth and shiny. Not really sure if it is because the powder is older or it just doesn't like sticking to really smooth shiny almost polished looking bullets. Thoughts anyone?

For those who are curious... I'm really trying to create a very hard/durable flat point bullet to serve as large bear medicine in a 45 Super from a 1911. It seems heat treatment anneals when using the heated coatings hence the experiment with what is probably heretical alloy ratios. They have actually shot fairly well, but I can't seem to get the coating to stick and things foul quickly. I am an... errr... ummm... "advanced beginner" caster 🙃

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Capt45 posted this 3 weeks ago

Just a thought; how old are the cast bullets? AND did you clean them with Acetone?  If your cast bullets are new cast, I'd still use some acetone on them to see if that helps.

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

That's a great suggestion, but, yes, they are fresh cast. I tried water quenching (from mold, prior to coating), not-quenching, and also cleaning with acetone. All had the same results.

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

acetone was fresh too, both for the HT and for cleaning....

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

I thought powder coating was used to prevent leading in softer alloys to get expansion on target. At 20 bhn, why in the world powder coat? You can shoot 20 bhn in a Freedom Arms Casull at FULL POWER and not get leading. Just curious why the extra step of powder coating?

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
  • sandwman
Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Lyman #2 alloy would work at 1911 pressures and velocities.....me thinketh.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

Another great question, Aaron. One that I honestly don't have the experience to answer. Was looking to eliminate leading. I have a borescope and even with the less than worthy coating, I'm seeing leading.

As mentioned, I am not a broadly experienced caster. I am seeing leading in the bore but I wouldn't really know how much is too much.

I haven't fired more than seven rounds without cleaning. When I run a bore brush wrapped with a patch and soaked with lead out, I can visually see lead particles on the patch. Does not take a lot of scrubbing to get it all out so maybe it's not Unusual to get some leading and I just don't know what I'm looking for.

If I don't run the coating, will I need to run wax bullet lube?

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

Also trying to keep the hardness at least 18 bhn. To be honest I'd rather use a low alloy and do the heat treating because from what I have gathered so far, that is the best way to make the toughest bullet, that being more than just hardness. It is also my understanding the best way to achieve the best accuracy.

I've been debating purchasing powder coating equipment as well. I guess I would like to eliminate breathing in lead as well, not that these loads will be used much for target practice. I hope they die a long slow death and rot in the drawer :-)

In that round of seven that I fired it seemed like the group went from 2 in at 50 yards and opened up to 6-7 in by the last three rounds I put the borescope down the barrel afterward and saw the leading and assumed that the leading was enough to affect the accuracy. I appreciate that it really isn't a statistically significant basis to make that conclusion and I'm willing to revisit the thought of shooting more strings

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

I have a lot of ingredients to play with. I have pure lead, chilled shot, Magnum shot, linotype, monotype, babbit lead (not sure what type), and pure tin.

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Find you some real wheel weights. Not the new ones made of zinc but the older clip-on weights. Cast with them and drop quench the bullets from the mold. You can run them at full power in magnums like that. They are hard enough. That's what I use for all my magnum loads in the 454 Casull, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, 357 Mag and other handgun high velocity loads.

20 BHN is super hard and may itself be contributory to leading. Seriously....Lyman #2 with a proper bullet lube serves all but the most extreme loads, especially in handguns where velocity is less than rifle loads. Lyman #2 works for me up to about 1700fps with NRA 50/50 bullet lube.

Let's see if some other gray beads will chip in here. Powder coating 20 bhn bullets to prevent leading is counterproductive. IMHO

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • watson
  • Capt45
watson posted this 3 weeks ago

Where does one find lead wheel weights now? I thought they had been demonized out of existence.

I don't even own a lubrisizer, although the thought has been growing on me a lot lately . One of the reasons I'm coating is I just have regular presses that I use one of the versions or the other of Lee bullet sizing dies. I don't have any other way to lube at the moment.

Seems to be convention and the opinions of those with significant experience in the matter that this particular application requires a really durable and tough bullet that does not want to mushroom but rather penetrate as much as possible without breaking up. Large grizzly bear skulls are apparently quite thick as well as just their bone structure in general. Mushrooming or shattering is not something one wants for this.

All that said, it seems convention is 18 to 22 bhn is what most of those applications specific loads are built around. Can (maybe... "should") Lyman #2 be heat treated to that? I know it's regarded as probably the all-time greatest multi-use alloy for many things, to include hunting, but I believe this application goes a little bit beyond. Convention via the "experts", as well as my own logic reasoning of thier position, is that the ideal performance is along the lines of a monolithic solid type performance, it seems. Can Lyman#2 be made to fit that role?

If not advised, I did find some pretty good references to some alloy mixtures that I can duplicate with the components that I have that are supposedly able to get me in the hardness range that I want via Heat treating. If I can get what I want and no leading, it would definitely be worth my while to invest in a means of traditional lubrication.

I know I can buy monolithic copper bullets and they will do everything that I want. But like probably everybody here on this site, I'm not the kind of person that is satisfied by just going out and buying something like that. I make my own fishing flies, gun barrels, ammunition, etc, etc because, well... just because I guess, LOL.

I have all of this stuff to do this. I would really like to get good at it and be able to make my own that will fit this purpose. I know it can be done, but there are so many opinions out there and I'm just getting my self immersed in it and a lot of stuff to sort through. Maybe lyman #2 is just a great fail-safe for this as well.

I have seen the composition of clip-on wheel weights and I have the stuff to be able to blend that ratio of components as well, I suppose.

Attached Files

linoww posted this 3 weeks ago

most of my pistol bullets are a mix of indoor and outdoor salvaged bullets.They usually go about 12-14 bhn.I don't shoot alot of full loads in revolvers and stick with 3/4 power. I use a bullet as big as the throat will accept and if I'm lucky it's reasonably close to the barrel dimensions.Ive recently powdercoated more for lack of smoke un the indoor range than to prevent leading. it does seem to lessen the chamber crud I get with lubed bullets a bit.I can't see any accuracy difference as of yet

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • watson
watson posted this 3 weeks ago

👍

Attached Files

4and1 posted this 3 weeks ago

Never used HiTek, but I powder coat all my bullets. After cast, I size using RCBS case lube which is water soluble. I simply wash using Dawn dish liquid, swish around in a colander, rinse and dry. Never had a sticking issue with powder coat.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Capt45
tomme boy posted this 3 weeks ago

How many coats of the hitec? should be at least 3 coatings of it.

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

Adhesion testing actually starts at the first coat because that's the coating that establishes the bond to the surface. There's two basic tests. The first is a smear test after it comes out of the oven... can you smear any of the color of the coating off on a rag soaked with acetone. They have all passed that. Then the second test is to smash the bullet with a hammer and observe for any flaking. This is the one that it is failing. As well, I can physically flake it off with my thumbnail even before I smash it if I work at it without too much effort. It is definitely failing the bond.

I have a thermometer in my baking oven and it is right where it's supposed to be for the duration. They are not overcooked or undercooked. The ratio of acetone to powder is correct. I tried two batches where I swirled the bullets in a tub of acetone for a minute before I coated them to ensure it wasn't contamination on the bullets and still no joy...

Attached Files

Lee Guthrie posted this 3 weeks ago

Hardness:  what everyone said above.  If you cannot locate COWW, then add 20 % of Lawrence Magnum Alloy shot to your #2 alloy.  You will then have the ability to heat treat that alloy and it will remain ductile w/o shattering. Your super hard alloys are counterproductive for your intended use.

HiTek coating.  Run your alloy and mould hot enough to get uniform frosting on your bullets.  Wash with acetone, then coat and cook the bullets.  That method worked for me.  Didn't do it much since cast, sized, lubed pistol bullets were a lot easier and worked as good or better.  Didn't increase accuracy with rifle bullets, but was useful with rifle hunting bullets for a softer non-leading bullet.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Aaron
  • watson
Glenn R. Latham posted this 3 weeks ago

I agree using HiTek on your bullets may be "guilding the lily."  Since you're only going to get 1050-1100 fps in the 45 Super, any wax-based bullet lube should work fine.  You don't need a lubrisizer (although they are convenient), you can pour melted lube around the bullets and push or "cookie cut" them out when cooled.  Since you don't have to worry about heat, you can use a lower alloy mix and heat treat it.  A lower alloy mix will be less brittle too.

Glenn

Attached Files

watson posted this 3 weeks ago

Lee and Glenn. Really appreciate the insight!

@Lee, the hot-frosting thing had occured to me. My initial thought was, "I could sandblast these, I suppose". Was even contemplating the best way to do it. Somewhere along in that consideration, it occurred to me that running hot might work to the same end. I may try that just to see if it works despite whether or not the alloy is suitable.

Good tip on alloying #2 too.

@Glenn, great idea on the cookie cutter thing! Mention that to somebody today and they said that was the way it was done for quite a while before the advent of really cool things like Lube sizers :-) he said the technique involves standing all the bullets up in a and pouring liquid Lube as deep as the tallest grease Groove and then just pressing a proper ID tube down over the bullet to cut each one out. Says it isn't a production volume process but for what I want to do will be way more than adequate.

I did decide to bite the bullet and looked at a used lyman 450 yesterday. I tried turning the threaded Rod that drives the lube piston, and the rod moved up and down and the piston stayed still. The rod would actually protrude out of the bottom of the press base, and turn way up above the press turning it the other way. I figured that it probably wasn't any good, at least without rebuilding it, and I passed.

Will probably turn myself a cookie cutter for now. As of today, it seems I will have to spend my lube Sizer Budget on replacing a throat reamer I rented that I can no longer find!!!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Glenn R. Latham
Paul Pollard posted this 3 weeks ago

The Lyman 450 will work when bolted to a bench. The bench (and maybe a steel plate) will keep the screw from protruding. Mine did that and I still use it.

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 3 weeks ago

I tumbled bullets (vibratory) in sand. The course finish afterwards helps powder coating stick better before baking. I used 80 grit garnit sand, but play sand should work also.

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Categories
Search
Popular Tags
This Weeks High Earners
Hot Topics
Close