Headspacing .30-30 and other rimmed bottleneck cases

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  • Last Post 11 February 2024
Wilderness posted this 29 January 2024

Most discussions of case life in .30-30 or .303, or similar, stress the desirability of sizing the case to headspace on the shoulder, not the rim. This of course excludes straight cases like .38-55, .45-70 and the pistol cases. What follows relates to .30-30.

If the rifle has tight headspace the process starts with firing the cartridge. The shoulder blows forward to fit the chamber. Then adjust the FLS die (or neck die) so that it does not push back the new shoulder.

If the rifle has loose headspace, like my Savage 99, the process begins with a fired (or unfired) case that has not already been stretched. My .30-30 cases mostly start life as once fired donations.

My preferred method of blowing the shoulder forward is to make circlips out of copper wire . The circlips go around the groove forward of the rim, leaving a gap for the extractor.

 

 

 

 

 

Since the circlip has also to fill in the bevel on the back of the chamber, and is pushed into the groove around the case, the wire diameter will be rather more than the amount of headspace to be taken up. Find some wire that is just a bit too fat, then if necessary squash to the “just fit” thickness. I used my 7/8” press for this, putting the flat faced lower part of my Lyman priming tool on the bottom, and a piece of flat steel against the bottom of a loading die on top.

 

 

Fire the cartridge with circlip and you will have the shoulder in place with one shot, or maybe two. Shoot these cartridges as normal loads. You may be restricted to single loading. For my rifle I can position the top cartridge in the magazine to feed so the extractor finds the gap in the circlip.

The other method I have used is to open a .30-30 case up to .375 with a series of M Dies, then size back to .30-30 with the more forward shoulder. A good smear of anhydrous lanolin around the inside lip of the neck precludes neck splitting. The case shortens about .050” on the way to .375, and recovers about .025" going back to .30-30, net loss .025”.

Larry Gibson writes of doing something similar but with expansion to just .35”.

The last method is to seat the bullet out to engage the rifling with resistance. Disadvantages are unknown effect on ballistics and (in my case) a loaded cartridge too long to eject.

To know whether the shoulder is far enough out without trying every case in the rifle, you will need a gauge. It can be simple. I use a spare .354” bullet sizing die with punch removed. I place the case or cartridge nose first in the top of the die, so the shoulder engages the lip of the die, and measure the combined height of die and cartridge with vernier calipers. With my setup 3.100” is a gentle crush fit in the rifle. New Starline cases measure 3.035”. I understand that there is also a commercial product for this measurement.

 

 

 

 

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MP1886 posted this 11 February 2024

That is the hard way to do it. Wrap three layers of Scotch tape around the base of the 30/30 case and fire form. Regardless of headspace the new case will be centered in the chamber. FWIW

Actually I think that's easier. 

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RicinYakima posted this 11 February 2024

That is the hard way to do it. Wrap three layers of Scotch tape around the base of the 30/30 case and fire form. Regardless of headspace the new case will be centered in the chamber. FWIW

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delmarskid posted this 10 February 2024

How did I do that I wonder?

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delmarskid posted this 10 February 2024

I have formed 303 Savage from 30-30’s to make cast plinking rounds. The 30-30’s bulged quite a bit. I suppose the 40s&w case is a sort of shim to take up the space.

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MP1886 posted this 10 February 2024

Here's one to ponder on 303 Savage. Now I've never done this and I don't know that it works.  Okay you take a 40 S&W case and you cut in off with the appropiate length that you have to determine. Now you have a brass cylinder. You slide this down over a 30-30 case and procede to load it.  When you fire it in your 303 Savage chamber the case expander around that 40 S&W case cylinder you cut and locks it in.  Then you can just size and reload them as normal. This is a simple explanation.  Can anyone expand on this?

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Wilderness posted this 10 February 2024

I am aware of another interesting case forming venture - turning .22 SHP into .30-30 by firing the former in the latter. Worked just fine, and don't think what comes out the front is harmless. They were being used for butt of the ear finishers on pigs.

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mashburn posted this 10 February 2024

Hello Ken

That is a good remark, very fitting. I am an old running dog man myself. Running dogs is what we call them, here in my part of the world. We also had a couple of other terms, boodlers and giving mouth on a covered trail. In field trials these got you a lot of minus points.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 10 February 2024

Hello Ricin

Dad gum it, I gave two complete boxes, of factory .303 Savage ammo to a friend of mine. I hope he appreciated them, but if I had to do it over again, I would do the same, he needed them and I didn't, and he was a friend. And good friends are hard to come by, especially if you are a hardheaded, grumpy old fart like me.

Mashburn 

David a. Cogburn

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MP1886 posted this 08 February 2024

The picture of the copper ring ahead of the rim tells me the case is not supported as well as it would be in a properly headspaced firearm. No way that firearm will be safe no matter how much the case shoulder is pushed forward.
I'm going to clear that up for, he's merely using that ring as you call it to blow the shoulder forward so that he can then size the shoulder back to where he wants it.  The other posts explaing how to create a false shoulder such as expanding the neck up to 35 or 375 caliber and then sizing the shoulder to where you want it. Like I explained in the previous post it's not going to hurt anything and it's not unsafe. 

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Premod70 posted this 08 February 2024

The picture of the copper ring ahead of the rim tells me the case is not supported as well as it would be in a properly headspaced firearm. No way that firearm will be safe no matter how much the case shoulder is pushed forward.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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MP1886 posted this 08 February 2024

Blowing the shoulder forward does give you a work around for excessive headspace but by doing so does not make for a safe firearm as the case is not supported ahead of the rim where it would be in a correctly headspaced rimmed case firearm.
Think about what you just said. The rifle would have to have a massive amount of excess headspace to expose past the solid web of the case. The 30-30 is a low pressure round and if the rim isn't fully seated and exposes a minute amount the case ahead of the rim there's no way it's dangerous. I'm not saying this is the thing to do, but putting it into perspective.  If there WAS A LOT of the case exposed I'm not certain if the rifle would even fire because it's designed to not fire if out of battery by a certain amount. Let me tell you about the 1903 Springfield. Because of it's "coned breech" the case isn't fully chambers to the extractor groove. Many condemn this. 

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Premod70 posted this 08 February 2024

Blowing the shoulder forward does give you a work around for excessive headspace but by doing so does not make for a safe firearm as the case is not supported ahead of the rim where it would be in a correctly headspaced rimmed case firearm.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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Eutectic posted this 08 February 2024

Wilderness,

Nice picture. The lack of expansion is because of the low pressure of the 0.308 bullet not sealing the 0.311
(or larger) bore in the 303. Lots of gas leakage saved another stupid person.

Interesting what you can find in the brass bin, lots of stories there.

Steve

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RicinYakima posted this 08 February 2024

At our local range a few years ago, I could not stop a guy from shooting 303 Savage in his 303 British SMLE. I tried to tell him the factory rounds he was shooting were worth $5 each, but he kept banging away the whole box. Cases were scrap when he was done. 

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Wilderness posted this 08 February 2024

Here’s another example of a blown out shoulder (and body), no doubt unintended, .30-30 on the left, .303 on the right for reference. We don’t have to guess what happened.

I found it in the rubbish bin at the range. Headstamp is PPU, so definitely a good advertisement for PPU brass.

What I found interesting, and relevant to part of this discussion, is the lack of expansion of the back third of the PPU case.

 

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Bud Hyett posted this 07 February 2024

Cartridge and chamber drawings. The tolerances are in the lower right corner of the drawing. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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MP1886 posted this 07 February 2024

SAAMI for the case:

 

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Wilderness posted this 07 February 2024

Thanks to all for your additions to the knowledge pool.

As regards correct headspace, I note SAAMI give 0.063" for the .30-30 rim. In measuring a dozen or so Winchester .30-30 rims I found actual thicknesses all the way from .054" to .062". Some old Kynoch .32-40s measured .053" across the board.

I was unable to find the specs for a .30-30 chamber, but it would presumably be at least .063" plus some range of tolerance. [Edit .070" - thanks Bud]

Put those together, and even without wear in the rifle you have a case that can be shunted several thou, perhaps ten thou or more, in firing [Edit .017" max]. That shunting contributes to case stretch, but can be eliminated by getting the shoulder forward to where it takes up any fore and aft slack.

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MP1886 posted this 07 February 2024

Ken thanks for the kind words.  My objective here is two fold.  One is I want to help members if I can. The other I want to learn more things that I don't know. 

Tony

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 February 2024

it occurs that might be time to thank MP1886 and Larry Gibson for their several years of posting original thoughts here ... I sure have learned a lot from them.   thanks guys !! ..

************************

an entirely different subject, but as my mind wanders it comes to me that a really good hound dog barks a lot ...  

ken

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