Does Indexing Shrink Groups

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John Alexander posted this 4 weeks ago

Long ago, In the days of yore, it was common knowledge that cast bullets had to be seated into the throat with the bullet indexed to be in the same rotational position every time to get decent, much less competitive, precision from the load. This was accomplished by either making a punch mark on the mold that would show on the bullet or marking the bullets while still in the mold.  The bullet would then be inserted each time with the mark at 12 o’clock or some other selected position when a bullet was chambered.  Some true believers believed the cases also had to be indexed for best results, as did jacketed benchresters at the time.  At least one excellent shooter in the schuetzen game believes it improves his scores to index primers so one leg supporting the anvil in in the same position for each shot.

 

There were articles, by some prominent CBA shooters, in the early Fouling Shots as well as in NRA publications reporting experimental results of indexing shrinking groups to less than half the size of groups with unindexed bullets.

 

When I passed out questionnaires to shooters at the 2019 CBA nationals find out their practices, I forget to put indexing on the questionnaire. To try to remedy that omission, I would like to ask two questions.  How many of you index the bullet for your serious loads?  And has anybody run a shooting comparison using indexed bullets vs. unindexed bullets to see if you ought to.

 

Thanks in advance for responses.

 

John

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Tom Acheson posted this 4 weeks ago

Can't tell you how many times I saw that practice in print.

Looking forward to the upcoming responses....

Tom

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Bud Hyett posted this 4 weeks ago

How many of you index the bullet for your serious loads? - I have in the past and could not find any correlation to better scores. A RCBS 30-180-SP mold was marked to see if the cavities shot the same.

  • They didn't. The #1 cavity definitely shot better in several Remington 700 .308 and Springfield rifles .30-'06 rifles. The #2 cavity shot better in only one rifle, a Springfield '03 with SA barrel. The difference in the bullets was the #2 cavity was .0005 smaller in diameter on the nose of the bullet. 
  • Next step was to index these bullets to see if they shot better with indexing. The bullets were indexed at 12 o'clock. The groups did not show a difference enough showing that indexing helped. 

And has anybody run a shooting comparison using indexed bullets vs. unindexed bullets to see if you ought to. - With the Stevens 44 1/2 chambered in .32-20 CPA. Again a SAECO 200 grain bullet two-cavity mold was marked in the cavities to see if either cavity shot better. This lead to also checking to see if indexing helped. It didn't, never to a difference to make the effort viable. Subsequently a custom John Schauf mold shot better than the SAECO and I've given up on indexing.

 

Note: The work with the RCBS mold was when I was in Illinois working with Ed Doonan at the Marston Municipal Ballistics Laboratory. Discussing the results, we questioned if the rifles we were using were accurate enough to discern a difference. This may well be a characteristic of an individual rifle as evidenced by only one Springfield rifle shooting the #2 cavity better. Also, a shooter who is this meticulous may well be a better shot and get better results.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Waleone posted this 4 weeks ago

John, I love your knack for generating interesting new discussions on subjects that have been discussed for years!

I wish I had the time to get into that kind of detail with my cast bullet shooting.

Through the years, I have acquired many used molds that have been punch marked by the previous owners for the very purpose you have described. I always have wondered if those doing testing on whether or not indexing matters have tested those bullets before punch marking, or did they perform the non-indexed test on punch marked bullets and it was the punch mark (usually on the ogive) that caused the bullets flight to vary from each other?

I have marked many of my molds, but only on the driving bands so I am able to separate bullets by cavity that were cast from multi cavity molds (before sizing, of course). I have a very thin center punch, and a light hammer I reserve just for this purpose. Aluminum molds especially take a very light touch.

 

Wayne

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RicinYakima posted this 4 weeks ago

My experience is very much like Bud's.

I have taken a skim cut on 30/06 case necks since I began Hi-Power shooting 35 years ago. I did not start indexing cases until I began bench rest shooting my Springfields in 1996. It is so easy to do, and such a habit, I have never quit doing it. Never did a test after I had a custom made sizing die that is perfectly centered on the case body.

The two groove 03A3 issue rifle I shot in matches would shoot better if the nose casting seam was aligned with the the groove in the barrel. How much better? About a tenth of an inch with a rifle that would shoot inch and a quarter groups. This was over several ten shot groups shot on the same day.

The '03 that I shot for Mod-Iron and Mod-Scope didn't make any difference, it was an inch and a quarter with both '299 and '284.

If you have a match quality chamber and leade, it is not likely going to make a difference, in my opinion.

Most of this was in the article I wrote in Issue 189, Reloading for the 2007 National Matches.

 

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pat i posted this 4 weeks ago

I used to index the bullet and case in my bench gun. Can't say if it helped or not but like a lot of things pertaining to this game.....if you think it helps it helps.

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Aaron posted this 4 weeks ago

As a young Marine in the Marksmanship Training Course at Quantico Virginia back in late 74, the question of indexing arose as to the shrinking of our groups at longer ranges. A very notorious Gunny Sgt informed us that the USMC had performed extensive and exhaustive testing of that theory (indexing), and that there was NO EVIDENCE of reduced grouping in the "sheath of trajectories" from a specific rifle and specific loads. He did however inform us that we should ALWAYS insert a cartridge with the "300" of the head-stamp at the 6-o'clock position to ensure reduced group sizes. We knew of course that cases do not get head-stamped in a relative position and the stamp was random at the genesis of the case.

The Gunny went on to explain that consistency was the key to reduced groups relative to rifle/ammunition, and that by us SLOWING DOWN to verify case placement, and slowly closing the bolt, and BELIEVING we were decreasing our group size; We would. There was a lot of belief in that method even though we KNEW that the orientation of a head-stamp would have no impact on our group size.

What kept our groups small was repetitive practice, smooth process, consistent process, breath control, tight stock weld, and belief in our training and capability. Everything counted. When it came to reading the wind and reading mirage (speed and angle) we were told that the only way to do that well was to sell your souls to the devil since it was, and is, a dark art.

I learned my lessons well and they served me well when outside of CONUS working in various jungles. When applying the marksmanship arts in spooky places, one could always rely on the Gunny's words coming back at critical times. "Slow is fast, breathe, relax, orient, check, check again, line up the shot, pause, think, read the wind, be the wind, take up the slack, steady, and then...recoil. Steady.....steady.......observe.....assessment.

We were taught that atmospheric variation, ammo lot variation, shooter error, and loss of focus had more effect on group size than an indexed cartridge. I was, and still am, convinced of that.

Ask yourself this. Why is it that on 90% of your range days, you shoot 2" groups but then mysteriously, you have one of those golden days where 0.8" groups grace your targets? You were relaxed, You were not in a hurry. You were enjoying the day. And....the devil was sitting on your shoulder thanking you for your soul.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Boschloper posted this 4 weeks ago

I did a test back in the ‘90’s.  At the time I was shooting two .30-06’s, a REM 700 and a Ruger #1.  I made a punch mark in one cavity of a 2 cavity 311284 and only used that cavity. I took 50 new cases and found the thin part of the neck with a micrometer. I filed a notch in the rim in line with the thin area of the neck. When I seated the bullets, I would line up the notch and the punch mark.  I tested both guns, inserting the cartridges at 3, 6, 9 and 12 o’clock. I found no difference in group size or position of the group on the target. I also tested oriented ammo against randomly assembled ammo and found no difference in group size.

I haven’t oriented any ammo since, but I think I still have the cases with the notched rims. 

I have always wondered if the Rem 700 style bolt “grabbed” the case and rotated it as the bolt closed, and wiped out the careful orientation.  The #1 would not do this.

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RicinYakima posted this 4 weeks ago

And the Remington style bolt also always pushed the case to the opposite side of the chamber from the ejector plunger. 

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linoww posted this 4 weeks ago

I index the primer anvils and notice a .0000000005 % reduction in group size.Sometimes I forget and mix the cavities and then im.not sure I see a difference. 

if you're well under .5 MOA  accuracy with your gun and load I think you might notice a difference but on average sporting rifle, that's  fighting for minute angle I think it's to make you feel good thing.

 

Seriously-

i.do have index marks on the noses of some of my  2 cavity molds for  accurate Schuetzen  rifles so I can separate them by cavity. Sometimes I will shoot the bullets indexed to the mark but can't tell it matters.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 4 weeks ago

"Ask yourself this. Why is it that on 90% of your range days, you shoot 2" groups but then mysteriously, you have one of those golden days where 0.8" groups grace your targets? You were relaxed, You were not in a hurry. You were enjoying the day. And....the devil was sitting on your shoulder thanking you for your soul"

 

I have to agree on that 100%  A few times I've had loads shot horrible so next time out I'll just start banging away with them just to use them up and find out it's my best load.Or sometimes it's the other way around. And that's usually after you've found the magic load so you decide to load up a couple hundred.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Hornet posted this 4 weeks ago

Does indexing shrink groups? How about a definite maybe? I think a good part of it depends on the bullet design and the mold itself. I've bought several used and sometimes abused molds where the top of the mold showed clear (and frequently easily measurable) wear that would cause the base to be non-perpendicular to the centerline axis of the bullet. Back when Ric Tunell (sp? aka Buckshot) was doing hollow-point mold conversions on his lathe, he reported that he'd found several molds where the cavity was not perpendicular to the mold face as manufactured. On plain-based designs in particular, that could cause some group enlargement that would " go away" if the bullets were indexed for uniform gas release. 

Dr. Mann reported being able to shoot "donut" groups (no core hits) when he tested this over a century ago with bullets with a notch filed on the base corner and I seem to recall Ken Campbell duplicating this a few years ago. Joe Brennan reported trying  it and didn't duplicate it but he was using a filler that may have masked the effect of non-uniform gas release from the notch. Higher muzzle pressure loads would likely exacerbate this effect.

Tom Gray did some testing with gas checked bullets comparing bullets that had been 'Bumped" to varying degrees and found that even a fairly light bump improved perpendicularity of the base to the center axis by a significant amount and gave improved grouping. 

I've tried indexing a couple of times but I don't have anything with a high enough base-line accuracy to clearly show any difference.

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shootcast posted this 4 weeks ago

I’m nowhere near the shooter that I would like to be. I have never caught on to the wizardly things needed to get that type of consistency. I have read in the past that all these things matter. I also have read that we should do testing to separate myths from facts. I collect my practice targets from range testing. Anytime I get a better than normal group. I write the firearm load etc. information on target and keep it. What I have found is if the same test are repeated over a period of time the results very well may flip flop. I suppose if testing is done in a proven firearm that shoots under a MOA consistent there might be some truth to indexing. I enjoy cast Bullet shooting but for whatever reason I seldom do all that well. Some years back I remember a individual on the forum stating we are only testing firearms for accuracy. This didn’t go over all that well. They say insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. I must be cutting a fine line. I have found what works in one firearm doesn’t always work in another. We constantly search for improvement. I don’t consider myself to be a Benchrest shooter. I do believe that in casting and reloading there are things that help. These things are more a individual technique. Because I do it doesn’t mean if you do it you get equal results. Another thing is shooting from various clubs and benches. No two are the same. I personally have never felt comfortable shooting rifles from these benches. Those table manners or lack of play a bigger roll in my opinion. Wind ,mirage and the gray matter. Ask yourself this about wind/ flags. If your shooting is say 1 1/2 MOA and your trying to hit a bull .75 in diameter, how do you hold in 5 mph crosswind.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 4 weeks ago

 Always stirring the pot, John! 

Guilty as charged.  I mark my moulds, index the bullets and have filed index marks on the case on the thick side (measured down deep in the case).  I think the case business might only make a difference if your loads are hot enough to shove the case head back against the bolt face.  Most of our cast loads are not.  No, I have not tried to prove it.  I don't think you can in a factory or military rifle.  If your bullet bases are square coming out of the mould, AND you seat the GCs flat, you probably don't have to index.

Glenn

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 4 weeks ago

Do you index the case to the FL sizing die / and/or / the seater?  Or just to the orientation in the chamber?

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 4 weeks ago

I don't normally FL size, usually Lee Collet neck size.  Since I'm eyeballing the mark on the rim and the mark on the bullet to line them up, I suppose they might go into the seater die the same, but can't say for sure.

Glenn

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DanLH posted this 4 weeks ago

I do put the bullets in the chamber with the nose dots at 12:00 from habit, I really never tested to see if it helped or not but it doesn't take any time to do it. I have 2 DC RCBS 180SP molds, thus 4 cavities with 1 to 4 dots on the noses so I can keep them separated. While I will only shoot the same cavity in any one group, in the past I have intermingled them while shooting the rail gun and never found any that didn't fall into the group. But this is after bumping (running thru a taper die) them to fit the throat. Also out of habit, I run them thru the bump die and lubri-sizer with the dot in the same location, again no proof that this helps in any way but again it doesn't take up much time. I have shot groups without aligning the dots and I don't believe I could tell the difference. At one time I also had some brass with marks to line up but quit doing that long ago as I normally make up 20 rounds of brass for a season and only neck size them very lightly.

Dan

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Tom Acheson posted this 4 weeks ago

Interesting coincidence...

As I wait for my new CPA single shot to arrive, I was reading a book "Loading and Shooting Traditional Sceutzen Rifles" by Randoph Wright. CBA member Bob Birmley sent it to me a few years ago. Copyright date is 2008.

Right there on page #109 is a sketch showing how a bullet mold is punch-marked and some text on the practice. It doesn't get into marking the case. For awhile I marked both bullet and case but eventually gave it up for lack of being convinced it improved accuracy enough to do the work.

Tom

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Millelacs posted this 3 weeks ago

For most of my match ammo, I index my casings to an indexing mark on my bullets (ex: bullet indexing mark to the "L" on Lapua casings, or "F" on Federal casings), and then insert the cartridge with the indexing mark and casing headstamp letter at 12:00 in the chamber.

Does indexing the bullet and casings to the chamber help?  I don't know.

Having to find the indexing mark and casing headstamp letter and then insert them into the chamber at 12:00 slows me down and calms me.

Slowing me down and calming me probably helps my accuracy more than anything else.

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Bud Hyett posted this 3 weeks ago

Another thought, marking the case head will only work for a person shooting one case. The case manufacturer will not take the time to assure the cases are indexed the same when adding the headstamp.

However, I agree that doing this slows me down also and helps in that way. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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max503 posted this 3 weeks ago

Indexing was my "edge" back when I shot in CBA matches.  Most other shooters there had benchrest equipment.  I shot a Ruger sporter 30-06.

I indexed EVERYTHING I could, from sizing to putting the round in the chamber.  I'm convinced it makes a difference.  

I never came even close to winning a match, but I never came in last, either.

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