curiosity again!

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Ross Smith posted this 19 November 2017

OK, I did a search on most accurate cartridge, no luck. I looked up the national CB records and was impressed, but no info for cartridges used. So here I go again, out to 200yds and in between, is there a cartridge that seems to be more accurate than the others? I'm not wanting to start a fight so maybe the top 5 or ten is more fair.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 November 2017

for pure grouping .... it isn't a cartridge at all ! .... but a breech-seated combination .... 32 miller short is often chosen ... and for "" cartridges "" .... most used is probably a * 30 Rem. BR  * .......

.... and since we are dealing in opinions .... i opine that a lucky barrel and brass matching a precision chamber job is more important than the name of the brass ....

great subject tho ... ken

 

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RicinYakima posted this 19 November 2017

I agree with Ken, the case shape and form mean very little. Attached is an exert from an old AR.

 

1. Bullet center of mass at center of form

2. Bullet size in relationship to groove size

3. Bullet form (shape?)

4. Jacket hardness or thickness variations

5. Powder position within the case

6. Cartridge OAL

7. Bullet weight (2.0 grains moved bullet POI 3/4" at 300 yards)

8. Powder type (stick or ball ?) if appropriate within pressure range

9. Powder weight within 5% 

10. Primer

This is for FA 173 grain match bullets in 30/06 made for match shooting. This was the opinion of George Jacobsen, former Assistant Superintendent of Frankford Arsenal, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

We cast bullet shooters have many more factors to contend with than just these. But I think he is correct in principle.

Ric

p.s. I hand copied this list from an old American Rifleman article many years ago and have kept it in my reloading notebook all these years. He wrote many articles in the 1940's and 1950's, so they may be available in some article on internet archives. The question marks are my notes, and I don't remember how long or detailed it was, but it couldn't have been very long or detailed if it was in the AR.

Last edited on 17 Mar 2008 172 by RicinYakima

mhtml:file://C:\Users\Ric\Documents\GUN%20STUFF\Reading%20File\Cast%20bullet%20articles\FA%2010%20most%20important%20reloading%20factors.mht!http://www.castbulletassoc.org/images/spacer.gif
 Current time is 175

 

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John Alexander posted this 19 November 2017

Interesting list. Note powder weight variation of less than 5%.

While on an Army rifle team a few years back, our coach wanted to impress us that we had good ammo in the FA 57 Match we were shooting so he claimed that the powder was weighed to be exactly the same in every round. We believed him, but to drive the lesson home he insisted we pull several bullets and weigh the charged.  When we did, he was amazed that within a few charges we found charge variations of over two grains, or about 5%. There was some pretty amazing shooting done out to 1,000 yards with those varying powder charges. JB benchrest shooters measure their powder charges and shoot groups much smaller than we can but we insist on weighing to very precise levels.

We may like weighing powder ourselves which is fine, but when are we going to stop giving this BS advice to new shooters when no one has ever shown that it takes anything near that level of powder weight uniformity to win CBA matches?

John

 

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RicinYakima posted this 19 November 2017

What the list doesn't say that he listed in order of importance, 1, 2, etc..

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45 2.1 posted this 19 November 2017

for pure grouping .... it isn't a cartridge at all ! .... but a breech-seated combination .... ... ken

That's a fact.............. It proves that really good accuracy has to have the bullet concentric and going straight down the barrel. That can happen in fixed ammo also. Most other things are just nice to have...... a few are essential and those are not the written in stone things noted by forums.

 

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Starmetal posted this 19 November 2017

Hi John Alexander.  You are correct in that powder measurement and powder weighing statement.   You know John that some of those measurers throw some very accurate weights.  Take the Belding & Mall for an example. I have a few of them. With fine kernel, ball, or flake powders they can thrown pretty consistent "0" charges. In fact with the larger stick powder they can amaze you. I use to weight my charges in my very early beginning of reloading. I don't anymore.  So what does a consistent powder charge do? It gives consistent velocities which gives low SD's.  Now that's if everything else is in order. Bullet weights, diameters, case volumes, neck tensions, crimp if you use one, primers, condition of the bore, just to name a few. You can get very good accuracy without getting lower SD's. The difference between it and accuracy with low SD's (and throw ES's in there too!) is that with the higher SD's, meaning more variation in velocities, you'll have the higher velocity bullets and lower velocity bullets printing holes in different positions in the group. That's obivious to see and understand. Where as in the lower SD accurate group you'll see the bullets hitting near the same position, often into nearly the same hole.  Lowering your SD has a slightly bigger improvement the further the target is out there.  The think is there is only 1% improvement in hit percentage going from a SD of 10 fps to a SD of 3 fps!  If you are missing the target for reasons unrelated to vertical dispersion, then reducing vertical dispersion won't improve hit percentage very much.  This is primarily because of most misses at long range are caused by wind not vertical dispersion. 

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Ross Smith posted this 19 November 2017

All: I am somewhat interested in Schuetzen so the 32 miller short was not a surprise. I took the muzzleloader approach to schuetzen with a .375 slug. I can hit the target once in a while. I really expected some others like 22ppc and 308. I own neither, for most of my cb shooting it's my 30-06 and 7 different molds that shoot well. I always wondered why the inherent accuracy of one cartridge seems better than others. I also use a B&M powder measure and only weigh to set the charger thingy. I didn't realize that we had that much wiggle room on powder charges. Ross

 

ps What do the up and down arrows mean?

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 19 November 2017

It would be an interesting study to compare cast and jacketed bullets looking at the 5% variation of powder.  Are cast bullets affected more or less than jacketed given a 5% increase/decrease in powder?

 

 

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Ross Smith posted this 20 November 2017

I tried breach seating in my '06 with a 30cal nose pour hoch tapered bullet about 205 gr. It actually shot better with the gc and lower driving band seated in the cartridge. If I remember I had some fouling around the case neck and was suspicious of the case fit in the chamber. Probably needed to play with powder and not sizing the case at all. I guess I'm referring to the case fit to chamber relationship. I'll revisit that breach seating again, there's no reason it shouldn't work in a bolt gun.

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frnkeore posted this 20 November 2017

If your trying to find out what the most accurate cartridge is, you need to qualify that.

There are many "most accurate" cartridges. It depends on the type of shooting that you do.

Even though the 6mm PPC probably still holds the jacketed records out to 300 yards, larger cased 6mm's hold the 600 -1000 yard records. The 308 or 7.62 x 51 wins the jacketed Militry matches but, with match throating, the '06 would take over, after 600 to 800 yards, if it were allowed.

In GC, CB classes,  the most accurate, by record count, would have to be a cartridge based on the 7.62 x 39 (or PPC) case, the 1.5 long 30 BR would be second but, in Schuetzen (CBA PB) the cartridge case is still not decided, in that disipline, you can use cases as small as 25/20 or 32/20 to 32/40. The smaller cases seem to have a slight edge but, the 32/40 still holds many records, including the 5 shot, 200 yard record of .275. But, the 10 shot 200 yard record is just over 1", using a 30 cal 357 Max case. For production and Hunter, the honors will favor the 308 Win.

Frank

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joeb33050 posted this 20 November 2017

out to 200yds and in between, is there a cartridge that seems to be more accurate than the others? 

No. From 222 to 30-06, No. Recoil starts to affect ability to shoot accurately around .26, .27.

joe b.  

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joeb33050 posted this 20 November 2017

It would be an interesting study to compare cast and jacketed bullets looking at the 5% variation of powder.  Are cast bullets affected more or less than jacketed given a 5% increase/decrease in powder?

 There are at least two questions here:

Does a 5% change in average powder charge affect accuracy? EX: From 14.5 to 15.25 IMR 4227.

Does a 5% variation in powder charge affect accuracy? EX: 3 @ 14.5 and 2 @ 15.25; then 3 @ 15.25 and 2 @ 14.5, IMR4227, and repeat.  

 Then on to cast vs jacketed.

My results, so far, suggest that the first has little to no effect.

joe b.

 

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Ross Smith posted this 21 November 2017

In my own experiences I have to agree with Joe and the NRA article. If the cartridge is a "given" then the bullet and charge are the most critical and also the variables that we can control. Cartridge shape of the short magnums seems to suggest some sort of advantage but that is mostly expressed as velocity(I'm no expert here). Thanks all this turned out to be quite stimulating. I'm going fishing at Lake Powell for T-day, so I wish you all Happy Thanksgiving now.  Ross

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