Continued 30-06 Plain Base Quest

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pat i posted this 26 February 2024

Had some decent luck with my 670 today. The details are.... 

Winchester 670 30-06. NOE 309-172-FN. Sized diameter .3095. 9 grains of WST. Winchester LR primers. Lapua brass. Wheel Weights. Emmerts lube. 100 yards. No idea on the velocity.

I'll have to get it out again to see if things repeat or if it was just a fluke. BUT at least it keeps my interest up. It was pretty calm with temps in the 40s. I'm sure some wind will make things real interesting but it's a start.

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John Alexander posted this 29 February 2024

Will the folks picking at one another on this thread please find another form of entertainment.

Pat has an interesting thread going and some excellent preliminary results. Let's not muck it up with bickering.

Thanks.

John

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pat i posted this 11 June 2024

 

It was a beautiful day so I made a range trip. The difference in this load from the original post is I tried Accurate #9 again and added a little more taper. I dont know the load weight because I load at the range and just chronographed it until I hit 1350 fps but I'd imagine it's around 11.5 grains. I lubed only the bottom 2 grooves this time instead of three. The 1350 fps is around 150 fps faster than the 9 grs. of WST and shoots comparably. Next time out I'll only lube the bottom groove on a few to see what happens. I'll also juggle the load a bit to see if there's any improvement. If you're a little bored with gas check bullets I highly recommend trying a plain base in a HNT gun. It's aggravating as hell but rewarding when you luck into some decent groups. If you're coming from any other class of rifle or gas checked bullets you might have to lower your expectations a bit but keeping that in mind it's just as much fun.....if not more so.

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pat i posted this 13 June 2024

This thread has really taken a turn but the bottom line is I'll keep posting my results since I started it and its a record for me to look back on without saving a bunch of targets and data, it's a work in progress so some results will be better than others, I'll never show a single group and start crowing about how I have it all figured out, and finally I'll stick with 5 shot group aggregates as an indication of my progress. Hopefully some guys will find it interesting and if not such is life.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 February 2024

People don't understand that plain-based bullets perform best and are most accurate when cast soft, 8-10 Bhn, and velocities are limited to approximate the performance of black powder ammunition when substituting  modern smokeless powders.

Gaschecks are entirely unnecessary with such loads and attempts to improvise GCs onto a bullet not designed for them almost always causes bullet base deformation which impairs grouping.

Pistol and revolver loads should provide adequate gyroscopic stability, clean burning and good ballistic uniformity while remaining subsonic. The most useful handgun working range is from 700-1050 fps.

IIn rifles you will likewise approximate black powder rifle velocities similar to the .44-40 or .32-40. The most successful working range being from 1000-1350 fps. To exceed these velocity levels with good accuracy requires "heroic" measures which are for the most part impractical.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i posted this 13 June 2024

I'd also like to see other people start similar threads about their trials and tribulations actually shooting. I find them entertaining and there's a possibility what you've learned might help someone else. Theory and talking about weighing primers is all well and good but sharing results from actual time at the bench go a lot farther in my book. I've had my fair share of failures but sometimes I think you learn more from what doesn't work than what does so share them all, I doubt anyone would think less of you. One of the things I truly miss about Joe Brennan no matter what you thought of him is he shot and wasn't afraid to post everything, good bad or indifferent.

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pat i posted this 26 February 2024

No plans on powder coating Ray. I coat the few pistol bullets I shoot, have a hell of a time seeing the sights anymore, but will stay a tradionalist when it comes to rifles. I'm not looking for blistering speed. Just an easy on the shoulder and wallet toy that'll shoot decent groups.

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pat i posted this 12 June 2024

Well now Rick you just threw down a gauntlet and I'll shoot 25 shoot groups as soon as the people shooting the other classes do it. Lol.

To expound on what I'm doing a little I run the bullet through a .309 Lee die I opened up a bit to get a .3095 or so final size and after running them in a 1 1/2 degree included die I made for my HVY rifles so the spot right in front of the forward lube groove is .306. I then lube in a .310 H&I die. Works for me. Maybe a 3 degree included would fit a little better but I'm not spending money for a toy with no guarantee it would make a difference. The biggest drawback to shooting these hunting rifles is its hard to be consistant on the bags. Plus that's a plain base bullet I'm shooting and if you've never played with one believe me they're a different breed of cat.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 June 2024

Too brief of post again, people have a hard time reading my mind.

Five shot groups are part of the game we play at CBA. It has no meaning in the real world, just a rule that we use. Shooting four five shot groups and averaging them together is part of the game's rules. It will not tell you if the next five shot group will be bigger or smaller.  It is not good or bad, just part of the game.

A 25 -shot group 99+% of the time will be bigger than any 5, 10, 15 or 20 shot group. If the rifle, load and shooter can shoot an inch and a half group at 100 yards, you can bet money the next shot will be within an inch and a half circle target. If a shooter shoots four five shot groups that average an inch and a half only randomly will the bullet be within the inch and a half circle.

 

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 12 June 2024

5 groups of 5 might just be a better representative of the inherent accuracy of the gun/load/bullet combination than a single 25 shot group. The  difference being the uniformity of environmental factors. Shooter fatigue, bore condition, bore temp... etc. Wind alone can change greatly between shot one and shot 25 if you are shooting a single 25 shot group. Shooting is not pure games of chance, picking cards, flipping a coin, rolling dice. There are outside influences. If those are not constant then your test is not as valid.

5-5 shot groups has been used for decades as a standard in NRA publications. It is what many are familiar with. I can agree that with a single 25 shot group your confidence that most future shots will fall within the boundaries of your sample group would be high, but not 100%. 

5 different sample groups would also give a high confidence level that future 5 shot groups would be within a standard deviation of the mean. 10-5 shot groups would increase that confidence, and 25 5 shot groups would be better yet. 

Concluding from one single group regardless of the sample size is just not going to be useful in our game. Folks that have a national record have done so once. One record for small group, one record for high score, one record for smallest group aggregate. Each per class and distance.  

Real world application often boggles the mind and does not follow what should be the case based on probabilities. Often as not my 10 shot group agg in a match is smaller than my 5 shot group agg. 

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Aaron posted this 13 June 2024

Just a thought here. A 25 shot "group" isn't. It is probably best called a sheath of trajectories and demonstrates what a particular rifle/ammunition/shooter is capable of. We can all field a few minuscule 3 or 5 shot groups which we proudly display on the wall or post online. The more accurate measure of the ingredient combination, is the totality of all those 3 or 5 shot groups put together.

When I shot in the service, each range session target data was measured, evaluated, and recorded so as to demonstrate performance over time. It showed marksmanship performance mostly and the Gunny would know if I learned anything. It demonstrably showed performance degradation if a 3-month hiatus occurred. It then showed a return to peak performance after a few weeks back on the range getting trigger time.

It also showed a gradual decrease in performance due to equipment degradation like bore or throat erosion. The bottom line was constant data logging and monitoring over time.

I believe what I am saying is that group size probably isn't the performance indicator we think it is on a particular day. It is a snapshot of particular ingredients that hour or day only. I would  surmise that a 25 shot group is a b**ch to keep tight due to a variety of things, namely shooter fatigue, eye strain, stress, shifts in the shooting platform, rifle/shooter mounting variations, temperature shifts, wind variations, and other variables attributed to performance of the package.

So I suggest a 3-shot group is a lie we love to believe, and a 25-shot group involves too many variables BUT is more telling of the "package" performance due to its involvement of most variables affecting performance.

I truly love my 3-shot groups (the ones I keep) and dread a days worth of data combined. Either way, I enjoy my shooting now that the Gunny is not stomping on my head and calling me all kinds of unflattering names.

Oh yea. I forgot to mention what the data yielded for each shooter/rifle mix. The USMC knew without a doubt what my precision hit percentage was at any given range. So at 250 meters, I could surgically hit with 98% probability. I could zone hit with 100% probability. At 800 meters, I could surgically hit with 88% probability and zone hit with 94% probability.  So in any given theater on any given target, commanders could assess the result of a shot from me being effective. Camp Perry values surgical precision. Combat theater values zone precision.

Probably TMI but what the heck. Now that I have kicked the hornet nest, the following should be entertaining to read. Get to typing guys!

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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linoww posted this 06 July 2024

10 years ago I was shooting the 308403 Pope in.my 30-06 finger seating as Pope intended. I started a match using no lube and did well the first two targets.

After that I had wild flyers but strangely no leading.

I went to my lubed bullets and accuracy came back somewhat. At times I'd get better grouping with no lube over lubed bullets,other times the opposite.

I never figured it out

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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John Alexander posted this 17 July 2024

I have shot gas cked vs. un cked with a few bullets designed for checks. The checks always improved groups substantially. I don't claim to know why.   It will be interesting to see what happens with a true plain base bullet. The conventional wisdom is that the gas ck shank doesn't hurt anything with shooting plain base - but I wonder.

Great seeing someone trying to find such things out.

BTW, your rethroated rifle would still qualify for production class.  One reason we invented hunting rifle class.

John

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pat i posted this 19 July 2024

7/19/24

Went out today. Temp 75 degrees. Wind light. Changes this time was adding a couple of strips of target paper up front between the barrel and forearm for a little upward pressure per Glenn Latham's recent post. Also cleaned the inside of the neck with an 8mm brush after every shot. The reason for this is after pulling a couple of seated bullets the base band was covered with carbon and maybe causing a little damage. 100 yards. Same 11.7 grains of #9 for 1300 fps. SD 9.5. White River primers in Lapua brass run into a Wilson die with a .336 bushing. Bullets started in the case by hand final seating depth gotten by chambering the round. The agg for the 10 groups is 1.155 so I'm sneaking up on that 1 inch agg I'm shooting for. Should be getting my gas checked twin to this mold this weekend. Looking forward to comparing the two. I hope this isn’t getting boring for everybody but I'm really enjoying playing with this thing and like I said before its record keeping for me which if I had to write it down would never get done.

 

 

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pat i posted this 23 July 2024

Here's the bullets I'm going to try out next time for a comparison. I'm sticking with the PB bullet but have to see if a check makes a difference. From L to R. Plain Base, gas checked with a Sage check I muscled on, and a gas checked using the aluminum checks I got from Ed Doonan probably 30 years ago. I talked to AL at NOE today and the gas check mold is on the way back because the shank is too big. He's going to replace it or give me a refund. He's a good man to deal with.

 

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pat i posted this 04 August 2024

8/4/24.

Warm with minimal wind. 3 grooves lubed with Emmerts. 4 of the 6 groups under an inch. 1.131 Agg.

 

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pat i posted this 25 August 2024

Had a humbling 10 shot group match at Windhill today. It was hot and the wind was blowing but not huricane status. It was a lot of fun though and worth every one of the 400 miles round trip to spend time with guys I enjoy being around and consider friends. In the grand scheme of things that is, or should be, the most important part of this whole game we play. Ill just keep trying and hope next time sees improvement. On the bright side I'm pretty confident I'd be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 200 yards......assuming I'm on the inside that is. 

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 February 2024

Pat I ...  

 I've been shooting cast bullets for around 45 years but still can't decide if it's 45 years of experience or one year of experience 45 times.  "

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DANG !! ... that is a Jewel !! ... will be laughing at that one for a long time coming ...  thanks ... 

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and thanks also for respecting the plain base thing ... i haven't used a gas check for 25 years ...  ain't right that a gas check costs more than the bullet ...   I am proud to wear a Purista T-Shirt ...

[[[[[[  NOTE:  ok, gas checks add accuracy in cartridge cast ... but so do Hornady AMax ]]]]]]]]]

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your postings on pb in 30-06 might even inspire me to keep developing accuracy in my spiffy pair of Tikka 55 in 308 ...  my shop range is only 35 yards and i have been happily using up my large supply of 32-20 castings and fending off the attacking hordes of Ginger Ale cans ...

....i feel a need to make closely spaced little holes in paper ... i think i hear my lonely rcbs 30-180 mold i got from Mr. Reiss here calling to me  ...    hope it don't mind traveling downrange with a bare fanny ...

ken

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 12 June 2024

Well, now that we are all thinking about accuracy and precision, we have had a good day. I enjoyed all your comments and I hope others that read the thread were entertained and learned about different points of view. 

Shot my share of CBA national records and won my share of Military Rifle Nationals; those twenty years were some of the most fun shooting in my life. Wish I was able to go back and do them again. 

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RicinYakima posted this 13 June 2024

It is always the people I remember the most. When I was starting, they were welcoming and helpful in any way possible. Very unlike the CMP and NRA matches I used to shoot, I was always welcomed at the CBA matches. 

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Aaron posted this 13 June 2024

All the above being said, a tight 3-shot group of 3" compared to another 3-shot group of 12" is telling. A 3.1" group compared to a 2.8" group is of no value to the larger picture.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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