Had some decent luck with my 670 today. The details are....
Winchester 670 30-06. NOE 309-172-FN. Sized diameter .3095. 9 grains of WST. Winchester LR primers. Lapua brass. Wheel Weights. Emmerts lube. 100 yards. No idea on the velocity.
I'll have to get it out again to see if things repeat or if it was just a fluke. BUT at least it keeps my interest up. It was pretty calm with temps in the 40s. I'm sure some wind will make things real interesting but it's a start.
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Looks good. I've been shooting 8.5 of WST or 452AA in the '06 with Accurate 31-155D and Winchester large pistol primers in Winchester 54.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Thanks Ed. I planned on trying some large pistol primers next time out. And you're the one who recommended trying WST in the first place so thanks for that too.
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No plans on powder coating Ray. I coat the few pistol bullets I shoot, have a hell of a time seeing the sights anymore, but will stay a tradionalist when it comes to rifles. I'm not looking for blistering speed. Just an easy on the shoulder and wallet toy that'll shoot decent groups.
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I use LLA diluted with equal parts by liquid volume of aliphatic mineral spirits. 50-50 one light coat to turn bullets uniform brassy color. Wheelweights and plumber's lead with 1% tin added - about 8 BHN.
Fellows I shoot with have good results in a dozen or more Springfields, US M1917s, Winchester 54s, pre-64 Model 70s. 8 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup also good or 9 grains of 231. Typical 4-5" ten-shot, 200 yard groups with 600 yard sight dope for Ball M2.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I would call that a hell of a good start. I'll look forward to the next step.
John
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John, Wr've been using essentially the same loads with various bullets, for 20 years. Started with Ideal 311241, then old Walt Melander NEI#69, also #311291 and #31141 with GC heel bored out to make .312 base band to size adjust to throat size. Accurate 31-155D our most recent iteration. The 31-171D is GC version used with 16 grains of #2400 or 20 grains 4227.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I use LLA diluted with equal parts by liquid volume of aliphatic mineral spirits. 50-50 one light coat to turn bullets uniform brassy color. Wheelweights and plumber's lead with 1% tin added - about 8 BHN..
The first plain base mold tried was a 165 grain Accurate something or other. Im not sure but I'm thinking 311-165s, could be wrong. I compared Emmerts to LLA cut 30% with mineral spirits and the Emmerts shot better for me across the board.
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I've had good luck with large pistol primers with the "faster" powders in the 30-06 as well.
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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We shall see what we shall see when it comes to large pistol primers. I wish there was a way to use small rifle primers in this 06 since I have an abundance at the moment. And thanks to all who gave me encouragement and suggestions. I've been fighting it for a few years so far. I need all the help I can get.
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Didn't one of the big BR supply houses make bushings from large to small? I too am flush in SR and SP but have less large variety. Might have been Hart?
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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It didn't work out well. The BR 6 PPC guys had them backing out of the primer pockets at 65,000 psi loads they used in the '90's. I may have a dozen or so in my BR box if interested.
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It didn't work out well. The BR 6 PPC guys had them backing out of the primer pockets at 65,000 psi loads they used in the '90's. I may have a dozen or so in my BR box if interested.
I'd definitely be interested Rick. Let me know what you want for them in a pm. Are they glued In or just seated like a primer? I'll never get anywhere near 65,000 psi so it'll be something to try.
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Nice groups for one hundred yards, ever try the bullet at 200?
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Nice groups for one hundred yards, ever try the bullet at 200?
This is first time I got anything to shoot this good at 100 let alone 200 and I dont even know it will be repeatable next time.. Figure I better learn to crawl before taking up running
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Pat you might freechex your flatbase bullets. The method doesn't require a gascheck shank on the bullet, but does require that you have a lubersizer like a Lyman or RCBS. They are good up to the low 2000 fps. I presume you know what they are, if not pm me and I'll explain them to you.
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Pat you might freechex your flatbase bullets. The method doesn't require a gascheck shank on the bullet, but does require that you have a lubersizer like a Lyman or RCBS. They are good up to the low 2000 fps. I presume you know what they are, if not pm me and I'll explain them to you.
As I said in Frogs thread all it would be is a gas checked bullet then and I'm playing the plain base game right now. I have plenty of molds if I wanted to shoot a checked bullet but that's not what I'm after with this thing. Thanks for the suggestion though. I do know what freechex are. I've been shooting cast bullets for around 45 years but still can't decide if it's 45 years of experience or one year of experience 45 times. At the moment I think it might be the latter. I don't have one of those lubersizers though. All I have is a few lubri-sizers. Would that work if I decide to try freechex down the road?
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I had one of the original free-chex tools and didn't find it worth the effort. The challenge is getting plainbase to shoot as plainbase, not with a pseudo gas check.Pats current target is pretty amazing with a production gun and plainbase.Those who don't realize that have never tried to get repeatable accuracy with fixed ammo plainbase.**Or only shot one good group and bragged about that one for years. like,let's say an 8x57 at 450 plus yards***one group means nothing. isn't it called a loober-sizer..hehe
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I had one of the original free-chex tools and didn't find it worth the effort. The challenge is getting plainbase to shoot as plainbase, not with a pseudo gas check.Pats current target is pretty amazing with a production gun and plainbase.Those who don't realize that have never tried to get repeatable accuracy with fixed ammo plainbase.**Or only shot one good group and bragged about that one for years. like,let's say an 8x57 at 450 plus yards***one group means nothing. isn't it called a loober-sizer..hehe
That's not exactly what I'm talking about. I probably should have said free check. The one I'm talking about is not a tool. You use your Lyman/RCBS luber/sizer to apply the check as you lube and size your cast bullets.
Of course you didn't find it worth the effort because you don't know what you're doing half the time. Yeah, I don't care for you either pal.
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Pat I'm not trying to talk you into the free check. What I am going to do is send you a pm show you the method just for the point that you know exactly what it is and how it's applied. I'll send pics with it. Remember I'm not trying to sell you on it, I merely want you to under stand it. The one the keyboard commando is talking about WILL slow you down and preparing the cast bullets, the one I'm talking about will not.
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Pat I'm not trying to talk you into the free check. What I am going to do is send you a pm show you the method just for the point that you know exactly what it is and how it's applied. I'll send pics with it. Remember I'm not trying to sell you on it, I merely want you to under stand it. The one the keyboard commando is talking about WILL slow you down and preparing the cast bullets, the one I'm talking about will not.
Thanks but I have absolutely no interest in freechex or learning about any configuration of them. If I wanted a gas check bullet I'd use a gas check bullet mold. Right now I'm interested in getting a plain base shooting so adding anything to the base isn't on the table for discussion. Appreciate the offer to school me about freechex but I have no interest in them at all.
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Good shooting Pat. Maybe PP86'ed can post his match results with plainbase bullets to school all of us... Waiting.....
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Can somebody explain ‘free check’ or would that require another thread.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Can somebody explain ‘free check’ or would that require another thread.
Probably best to start a new thread so your question doesn't get lost in the static.
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Can somebody explain ‘free check’ or would that require another thread.
Premod70 I'll send you a pm on the free check.
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Great MP 1886, thanks for the effort.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Charlie Darnall in California made the original "freechex" tool that you punched beer cans into gaschecks. I had one back in the late nineteen eighties or early nineties.
They were pretty thin so you could put them around plainbase bullets and then run them through a sizer.
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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linnoww I'll bet you don't know what is wrong with that tool.
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Or is it this from one of your other posts.
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Had some decent luck with my 670 today. The details are....
Winchester 670 30-06. NOE 309-172-FN. Sized diameter .3095. 9 grains of WST. Winchester LR primers. Lapua brass. Wheel Weights. Emmerts lube. 100 yards. No idea on the velocity.
I'll have to get it out again to see if things repeat or if it was just a fluke. BUT at least it keeps my interest up. It was pretty calm with temps in the 40s. I'm sure some wind will make things real interesting but it's a start.well 'ole boy" the lower left target with the ,857 looks good. the right hole looks like operator error.keep trying.
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Thanks for the encouragement Muley. The question on the lower left target is is the outlier operator error or was it the four that landed in the 9 ring? Seems like the one that's out would fit in better with the other 3 groups than the four in the 9 ring. So many questions, so little time.
I'd like to ask a question about something before my thread gets hijacked. Why would anyone want to put a gas check on a plain base bullet? Seems to be defeating the whole purpose of having a pb mold in the first place. In most cases you can order the same mold with a check shank so why mess around. If it's an old mold design you already have or was gifted just take it for what it is and use it as intended. Seems like a solution looking for a problem to me.
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Pat,
It's that old "I can fix it myself" attitude. You know, spend $100 on equipment to "fix" a problem you created when you "went cheap." Buy a plain base mould to save money on gas checks, then find out your super magnum revolver leads the bore with the plain base bullets, so you get a gas check maker to fix the leading issue. Are we having fun chasing our tail yet? But if you've got a bunch of plain base pistol moulds and leading problems, they do cure it.
Glenn
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Thanks for the reply Glenn. I guess if I was in that boat I'd just lower the velocity or do something different until the leading went away. I have one of those 30 caliber freechex tools I bought on a whim thinking all the money Id save on checks would finance my retirement and found it to be a giant PIA and not worth the effort. If I was looking for a faster load I'd just buy a bullet design that took gas checks to start with.
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People don't understand that plain-based bullets perform best and are most accurate when cast soft, 8-10 Bhn, and velocities are limited to approximate the performance of black powder ammunition when substituting modern smokeless powders.
Gaschecks are entirely unnecessary with such loads and attempts to improvise GCs onto a bullet not designed for them almost always causes bullet base deformation which impairs grouping.Pistol and revolver loads should provide adequate gyroscopic stability, clean burning and good ballistic uniformity while remaining subsonic. The most useful handgun working range is from 700-1050 fps.
IIn rifles you will likewise approximate black powder rifle velocities similar to the .44-40 or .32-40. The most successful working range being from 1000-1350 fps. To exceed these velocity levels with good accuracy requires "heroic" measures which are for the most part impractical.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Will the folks picking at one another on this thread please find another form of entertainment.
Pat has an interesting thread going and some excellent preliminary results. Let's not muck it up with bickering.
Thanks.
John
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Pat I ...
" I've been shooting cast bullets for around 45 years but still can't decide if it's 45 years of experience or one year of experience 45 times. "
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DANG !! ... that is a Jewel !! ... will be laughing at that one for a long time coming ... thanks ...
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and thanks also for respecting the plain base thing ... i haven't used a gas check for 25 years ... ain't right that a gas check costs more than the bullet ... I am proud to wear a Purista T-Shirt ...
[[[[[[ NOTE: ok, gas checks add accuracy in cartridge cast ... but so do Hornady AMax ]]]]]]]]]
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your postings on pb in 30-06 might even inspire me to keep developing accuracy in my spiffy pair of Tikka 55 in 308 ... my shop range is only 35 yards and i have been happily using up my large supply of 32-20 castings and fending off the attacking hordes of Ginger Ale cans ...
....i feel a need to make closely spaced little holes in paper ... i think i hear my lonely rcbs 30-180 mold i got from Mr. Reiss here calling to me ... hope it don't mind traveling downrange with a bare fanny ...
ken
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CBA shooter Chauncey Roe in Springfield Oregon used to say" the downfall of western civilization can be traced the John Barlows introduction of the Gascheck"
He had a Bsllard he called Gertrude..Funny fellow.
gosh thst was almost 30 years ago!
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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George I shot next next to Chauncey at a nationals in Springfield once and like you said he was pretty funny. A really nice guy too.
Ken I have my eye out for a 308 with a straight chamber and throat which my 06 unfortunately doesn't have. Its not terrible but not right. I think a 308 throat would make this all a lot easier as far as fitting the bullet. As for the experience thing I wish I could lay claim to it but read it somewhere in a different context so use it anytime you want. Give it a couple of weeks and I'll forget I ever heard it so will get to have a laugh all over again.
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pat i ... i have an extra tikka 55 in 308 ... not sure why i need 2 ... i havent shot it seriously much, so not sure if it is a lucky one ... it had a crack behind the tang, so i glued it back together and pillar bedded it while i wuz at it ... if interested i might cave in .. it is the deluxe blond stock ... nice looking ..
i might mention these also have a terrific trigger ...
ken
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Interesting Ken but two problems. I don't want to spend a lot of money, Tikka money that is, and more importantly I don't think pillar bedding would be allowed in hunter class but thanks for the offer. From what I've heard they're excellent rifles.
What's weird is with all the other crap I have I don't have a 308
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pati ... ok, then how about my remmy 722 in 300 savage ... condition 9/10 ... be the only guy shooting 300 sav in hunter class... i only shoot this plinking standing so i don't know how accurate it is ... or even what the throat looks like in this gun. if interested i could send you a chamber casting. i always wondered why the m14 didn't just shoot 300 savage ...
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Again Ken I really appreciate your offer but think that short neck and brass availability would be a killer to work around. Let me do a little more research on it. I love the long neck length of the 06 and if it had a ball seat I'd love it even more but that's not the case.
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The 03A3 Springfield has a cylindrical ball seat which earlier '03s and commercial '06s don't. Frank Marshall attributed the great success of the A3 in military matches to this and it's better sights.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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That's interesting and something I had no idea about. I can't understand the reasoning behind getting rid of the ball seat in 06 commercial rifles. Maybe because bullets choices were getting shorter and more streamlined so they had more jump to the rifling and were less accurate. But on the other hand weren't the bullets used in WW2 147 grains? Who knows........maybe somebody does but it ain't me.
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300 sav... i just looked up the saami specs and the 300 sav freebore and throat is almost identical to the 308 win. ... but with about 50 per cent longer ball seat ... hmmm .
i am thinking the short neck is better for cast accuracy ... in my mini-return to accuracy ... the biggest " tweak " improvement has been inside tapering the 308 neck so the bullet is only actually grasped near the shoulder of the case ... the core group is about the same but the " outliars " are fewer and closer to center ... i think ... ...
hey this accuracy thing could be fun ... i admit i kind of miss the agony, despair, and self-flagellation ... heh ...
ken
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The WW2 Ball M2 flat-based bullets were 152 grains. The APM2 bullets ran from 165-168 grains. Older stocks of 174-grain Ball M1 were used also until expended.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Took the winchester out again today. Results weren't as consistant or good as last time but I'll take it considering the cold.
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I was digging around looking for something and came across a Savage 110 in 30-06 that I forgot I even had. Someone must have given it to me. It was missing the bolt head and a couple of other bolt parts. I had a spare bolt so took the parts I needed to get this one going. This is the same load as the Winchester. I looked at the barrel with my borescope and the throat leaves a lot to be desired. I'm going to firelap it to see if there's any improvement. I've always said if one aggravating project isn't enough pair it up with another
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It was a beautiful day so I made a range trip. The difference in this load from the original post is I tried Accurate #9 again and added a little more taper. I dont know the load weight because I load at the range and just chronographed it until I hit 1350 fps but I'd imagine it's around 11.5 grains. I lubed only the bottom 2 grooves this time instead of three. The 1350 fps is around 150 fps faster than the 9 grs. of WST and shoots comparably. Next time out I'll only lube the bottom groove on a few to see what happens. I'll also juggle the load a bit to see if there's any improvement. If you're a little bored with gas check bullets I highly recommend trying a plain base in a HNT gun. It's aggravating as hell but rewarding when you luck into some decent groups. If you're coming from any other class of rifle or gas checked bullets you might have to lower your expectations a bit but keeping that in mind it's just as much fun.....if not more so.
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it looks like you are beating the plainbase fixed ammo game .Six groups averaging barely over 1moa with a sporting rifle isn't common at all! I bet few have done it
I'm trying the same and boy can it be like beating your head against a wall to get consistent accuracy.
that load would be good enough to shoot some good scores against those "cheaters" who use short jackets on the base of the bullet😁
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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The issue isn't the 5-shot groups you are getting.
Shoot 25 shot groups, that will be real life groups, and inch and a half is world record!!
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Well now Rick you just threw down a gauntlet and I'll shoot 25 shoot groups as soon as the people shooting the other classes do it. Lol.
To expound on what I'm doing a little I run the bullet through a .309 Lee die I opened up a bit to get a .3095 or so final size and after running them in a 1 1/2 degree included die I made for my HVY rifles so the spot right in front of the forward lube groove is .306. I then lube in a .310 H&I die. Works for me. Maybe a 3 degree included would fit a little better but I'm not spending money for a toy with no guarantee it would make a difference. The biggest drawback to shooting these hunting rifles is its hard to be consistant on the bags. Plus that's a plain base bullet I'm shooting and if you've never played with one believe me they're a different breed of cat.
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The issue isn't the 5-shot groups you are getting.
Shoot 25 shot groups, that will be real life groups, and inch and a half is world record!!
Was a liquor hitting you a little bit?That is a confusing post
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Too brief of post again, people have a hard time reading my mind.
Five shot groups are part of the game we play at CBA. It has no meaning in the real world, just a rule that we use. Shooting four five shot groups and averaging them together is part of the game's rules. It will not tell you if the next five shot group will be bigger or smaller. It is not good or bad, just part of the game.
A 25 -shot group 99+% of the time will be bigger than any 5, 10, 15 or 20 shot group. If the rifle, load and shooter can shoot an inch and a half group at 100 yards, you can bet money the next shot will be within an inch and a half circle target. If a shooter shoots four five shot groups that average an inch and a half only randomly will the bullet be within the inch and a half circle.
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Yeah, the biggest battle sometimes can be getting a consistent point of impact. I think plainbase bullets are more of a battle than a gas check.
A number of years ago I submitted an article where I was shooting at 10mm Revolver with no lube and shot some 50 shot groups. At twenty five yards they were pretty impressive and I had no great point of impact wandering . Which makes me wonder sometimes, if lube is the culprit, and it seems with Pat using less of it.That might be the case.
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Man Rick you really know how to piss in someone's Wheaties! If the only way I'll ever know the true accuracy of my testing is by shooting 25 shot groups and ignoring 5 shot aggs I suppose I'll just have to stay ignorant, along with the 99%+ of other shooters out there. If someone consistently shoots 1/2 inch groups day after day year after year and looses one bullet in a 25 shot group opening it up to 3/4 inch doesn't make it a 3/4 inch rifle. I think 5 shot group aggs at 100 yards is pretty much the standard. Anyway....my posting and target pictures aren't to be taken as me bragging or saying I have it all figured out because I'm not and don't.
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5 groups of 5 might just be a better representative of the inherent accuracy of the gun/load/bullet combination than a single 25 shot group. The difference being the uniformity of environmental factors. Shooter fatigue, bore condition, bore temp... etc. Wind alone can change greatly between shot one and shot 25 if you are shooting a single 25 shot group. Shooting is not pure games of chance, picking cards, flipping a coin, rolling dice. There are outside influences. If those are not constant then your test is not as valid.
5-5 shot groups has been used for decades as a standard in NRA publications. It is what many are familiar with. I can agree that with a single 25 shot group your confidence that most future shots will fall within the boundaries of your sample group would be high, but not 100%.
5 different sample groups would also give a high confidence level that future 5 shot groups would be within a standard deviation of the mean. 10-5 shot groups would increase that confidence, and 25 5 shot groups would be better yet.
Concluding from one single group regardless of the sample size is just not going to be useful in our game. Folks that have a national record have done so once. One record for small group, one record for high score, one record for smallest group aggregate. Each per class and distance.
Real world application often boggles the mind and does not follow what should be the case based on probabilities. Often as not my 10 shot group agg in a match is smaller than my 5 shot group agg.
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Well, now that we are all thinking about accuracy and precision, we have had a good day. I enjoyed all your comments and I hope others that read the thread were entertained and learned about different points of view.
Shot my share of CBA national records and won my share of Military Rifle Nationals; those twenty years were some of the most fun shooting in my life. Wish I was able to go back and do them again.
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those twenty years were some of the most fun shooting in my life. Wish I was able to go back and do them again.
Couldn't agree more. I loved the time I spent traveling around shooting matches. Eventually age, life, and the unwillingness to spend so much time behind the wheel caught up with me. Have some damned fine memories and met some great people though.
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It is always the people I remember the most. When I was starting, they were welcoming and helpful in any way possible. Very unlike the CMP and NRA matches I used to shoot, I was always welcomed at the CBA matches.
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well, just to prove the rule about friendly shooters ...
about 1976, after moving to Iowa, i finally tracked down where some 22 shooting was going on ... the Des Moines Rifle and Pistol Club or some such ... so my wife and I attended and watched, and after the shooting was done and the fellers were cleaning and jawing, I introduced ourselves and inquired if we ourselves myself and wife ... might join the club, and enjoy a little friendly competition ...
after about 2 minutes of complete silence and the previously mentioned gentlemen looking at everything but we intruders, my wife nudged me gently in the ear with her elbow and we retreated out the nearest exit ...
a little puzzled driving home but then my wife mentioned " well, that range WAS located in the basement of the YMCA . " ...
i married up ...
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Just a thought here. A 25 shot "group" isn't. It is probably best called a sheath of trajectories and demonstrates what a particular rifle/ammunition/shooter is capable of. We can all field a few minuscule 3 or 5 shot groups which we proudly display on the wall or post online. The more accurate measure of the ingredient combination, is the totality of all those 3 or 5 shot groups put together.
When I shot in the service, each range session target data was measured, evaluated, and recorded so as to demonstrate performance over time. It showed marksmanship performance mostly and the Gunny would know if I learned anything. It demonstrably showed performance degradation if a 3-month hiatus occurred. It then showed a return to peak performance after a few weeks back on the range getting trigger time.
It also showed a gradual decrease in performance due to equipment degradation like bore or throat erosion. The bottom line was constant data logging and monitoring over time.
I believe what I am saying is that group size probably isn't the performance indicator we think it is on a particular day. It is a snapshot of particular ingredients that hour or day only. I would surmise that a 25 shot group is a b**ch to keep tight due to a variety of things, namely shooter fatigue, eye strain, stress, shifts in the shooting platform, rifle/shooter mounting variations, temperature shifts, wind variations, and other variables attributed to performance of the package.
So I suggest a 3-shot group is a lie we love to believe, and a 25-shot group involves too many variables BUT is more telling of the "package" performance due to its involvement of most variables affecting performance.
I truly love my 3-shot groups (the ones I keep) and dread a days worth of data combined. Either way, I enjoy my shooting now that the Gunny is not stomping on my head and calling me all kinds of unflattering names.
Oh yea. I forgot to mention what the data yielded for each shooter/rifle mix. The USMC knew without a doubt what my precision hit percentage was at any given range. So at 250 meters, I could surgically hit with 98% probability. I could zone hit with 100% probability. At 800 meters, I could surgically hit with 88% probability and zone hit with 94% probability. So in any given theater on any given target, commanders could assess the result of a shot from me being effective. Camp Perry values surgical precision. Combat theater values zone precision.
Probably TMI but what the heck. Now that I have kicked the hornet nest, the following should be entertaining to read. Get to typing guys!
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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All the above being said, a tight 3-shot group of 3" compared to another 3-shot group of 12" is telling. A 3.1" group compared to a 2.8" group is of no value to the larger picture.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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This thread has really taken a turn but the bottom line is I'll keep posting my results since I started it and its a record for me to look back on without saving a bunch of targets and data, it's a work in progress so some results will be better than others, I'll never show a single group and start crowing about how I have it all figured out, and finally I'll stick with 5 shot group aggregates as an indication of my progress. Hopefully some guys will find it interesting and if not such is life.
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I'd also like to see other people start similar threads about their trials and tribulations actually shooting. I find them entertaining and there's a possibility what you've learned might help someone else. Theory and talking about weighing primers is all well and good but sharing results from actual time at the bench go a lot farther in my book. I've had my fair share of failures but sometimes I think you learn more from what doesn't work than what does so share them all, I doubt anyone would think less of you. One of the things I truly miss about Joe Brennan no matter what you thought of him is he shot and wasn't afraid to post everything, good bad or indifferent.
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For sure keep posting! Your data is useful. I did a similar test with the 411-JDJ a while back.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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Here's a picture of my bench set up just for the heck of it.
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The more I look at that bullet, the more tempted I am to get that mold and load that bullet up in a T/C 30-30. You are delivering great groups with that and I am wondering what could be accomplished with the T/C at modest velocity in a 14" tube. Dang.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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Pat, I have that exact Hart rest. I purchased mine back around 1996 thru Sinclair. Lots of experience using the gas check version of this bullet. My varmint profile Shillen 1/10 twist barrel has a .75 degree taper per side throat or 1.5 included. My favorite powder is Reloader 7 about 17 grains I believe. Velocity about 1700fps. Verygood grouping with most all powders... I blame this on the properly fitted taper bumped bullet.
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I always enjoy your posts and pictures Keith so thanks for adding to this thread. What case were you using in your 10 twist Shilen.
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308 Winchester pre chambered barrel from Brownells. All I had to do is set headspace and cut throat. Throat was cut by hand using t handle tool and ptg reamer. Taper bump die was cut using same reamer from a blank 30 die from ptg.
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When I first started shooting heavy class in the CBA matches I was using a 14 twist Shilen barrel I chambered in 30 BR. I used LBT molds exclusively so didn't have to bump but I did have to taper. I picked up a 3 ft length of 7/8x16 threaded rod and cut it into die length sections. Using the same .310x1 1/2 incl. throater I throated the barrel with I made a taper die and added a simple ejection system to a spare press I had. It's been working for years and 1000s of bullets with no issue. With the 14 twist barrel I ordered a mold from Veral 1.020 long. I was using either 28 grs of Varget or a comparable load of 135 for right around 2150 fps with mold quenched WWs. It shot pretty good as long as I did my part. All I've ever used was straight WWs in every gun I own either as cast, mold quenched, or oven heat treated with everything from the plain base bullet I'm shooting now in an 06 at pedestrian velocities to a 30x47 I was shooting heat treated at 2550 fps out of a Shilen 17 twist and everything in between. I've never shot a linotype bullet so don't ever let anyone tell you or anyone else WWs aren't any good.
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pat i ... there we go ... a recipe for a good shootin. i love these posts showing how there are guidelines to getting lucky building an accurate cast gun.
oh, 7/8 x 14 pitch threaded rod.
i pick them up at local Ace hardware. I also use old barrels for gadgets ... already have a hole " near ' center ... if also stainless then a bonus ... less work to make shiney pretty than the threaded rod .
btw i have a nice used Shilen 7mm varmint barrel ( threaded Remmy 700 ) that would make a great accuracy project for someone ... i doubt i will ever get to it myself, i am into 358 cal right now. pm me if. i do have a 280 rem. reamer if that could help.
ken in Iowa, where we have constitutional carry ... no harassment, no fee; it can be demanded.
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pat i ...
oh, 7/8 x 14 pitch threaded rod.
.
I stand corrected. Thanks Ken. It's been quite a while since I made a die and 7/8 x 16 was the first thing that came to mind.
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Gave it a go again today.....unfortunately. I have to stop trusting the weatherman, it was supposed to be a little cooler today but wasn't. It was hot and humid. By the time I got set up and my targets hung I was drenched. Between sweat rolling in my eyes and the mirage off the barrel so bad I couldn't see the target I called it quits after the 4th group. A wasted day but at least I have bullets for my next trip. I cleaned when I got home and noticed I was getting a little leading which hasn't happened before. Looking forward to getting my Garmin so I can chase a velocity when shooting in different temperatures. Maybe #9 is a little sensitive to temps.
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Had another run at the bench this morning. Garmin? Worked great. Me? Not worth a sh-ite. It looked about what 3 loads of buckshot would do to a CBA score target at 100 yards. Maybe next time will be the charm. I'm not going to even bother showing a target. Funny thing was there were 5 benches occupied and 3 of the five were using a Garmin. One jacketed BR shooter had his attached to a real fancy front rest mounted on a post. He must have 2 grand wrapped up in that rest and the chrono. Wish I'd taken a picture. Garmin must be raking in the coin selling these things.
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Went out to the range today. Shot a total of 22 five shot groups. The weather was nice with about 75 degree temps and 9 mph switchy winds which didn't help much. The agg of the 22 groups was 1.457. Only had 4 groups under an inch and two over 2 inches so I guess that's a win. I ended up switching out the .310 H&I die I use to lube the bullet I tried last time back to my original .311 die. It seemed to help for some reason which I don't understand since the bullet is under .310. Only thing I can figure is the lubesizer is out of alignment and damaging the bullet with the .310 die. Either that or the way I put the die in ended up with it out of line somehow. The top punch is left floating and I seat the die by running in a bullet before tightening the die.....who knows?
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That is a pretty darn good average for that many groups. I'm sure somebody is going to post that has never tried the challenge plain base and fixed ammo that you should have shot ten shot groups.
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I think that was a good effort by Pat,looking at it another way,you could say there were 11 ten shot groups or one 110 shot group If all the shots were plotted to a single aiming mark.
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"Only thing I can figure is the lubesizer is out of alignment and damaging the bullet with the .310 die."
I've been through at least 10 lube & sizers over the years. I've kept a 1930's Cramer, a SAECO and one RCBS that are straight. Rest went down the road.
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For the use of PB on the 30-06 what would be the starting load and powders you can use and what would be the max ? thank you
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Can't answer for all the different powders you can use for pb bullets in the 06 because there's probably a pretty extensive list but I've tried WST and #9. I've shot 9 grs of WST for 1150 fps and 11.7 grs of #9 for right around 1300. In my experience your accuracy will go to pot long before you hit a max load. Thinking about maximum loads with a plain base bullets will be an excersize in frustration as I've found out. You have to take them for what they are and enjoy.
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I understand what you mean . I do not have any of the ones you listed. I do have Red Dot, 2400, Bullseyes, Longshot, IMR 4895, SR 4756, IMR 4227, IMR 4064,Blue Dot, Unique,H335 . What ones would one recommend and what would be the starting and max loads would be ?
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Red Dot or Bullseye....fast powders like these work good.
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I understand what you mean . I do not have any of the ones you listed. I do have Red Dot, 2400, Bullseyes, Longshot, IMR 4895, SR 4756, IMR 4227, IMR 4064,Blue Dot, Unique,H335 . What ones would one recommend and what would be the starting and max loads would be ?
With what you have on hand I'd start out with Red Dot, Bullseye, and Unique. Maybe down the line you can try Blue Dot and 4227 although I didn't have much luck with them or 5744 but I was shooting a different bullets that might not have fit too well. I'll revisit them some time in the future. I don't know if you'll ever get a definitive answer on start and max loads. I'd try starting at 5.5 grains with Red Dot and Bullseye and 6.5 with Unique. Just increase the charge .5 grains at a time until the gun shoots to your satisfaction using common sense to know when to stop or the thing leads like crazy and shoots scattergun groups. I'm no expert and just pulling my recommendations out of my arse and repeating others advice with those powders but you should be pretty safe there. Just don't go nuts with the powder measure and watch for pressure signs and you'll be alright. I've been trying to get something that'll agg under an inch since at least 2018 and 6 molds so don't expect miracles. Personally I think because of the skinny forearm, low velocity, and long barrel time it's an uphill battle but extremely rewarding when something starts to come together. As long as you accept the notion that a fixed cartridge plain base bullet out of 30/06 ( or any cartridge for that matter) production gun is more often a PIA than not you'll enjoy the few successes a lot more. This has been long winded I know but that's my opinions and I'm sticking to them
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fwiw ... for plain base ... and anything that looks kinda like a 243 or 35 whelen ... my load for 25 years has been 7 gr. unique ...
recently i ran out of unique so now 7 gr. of 700X .. especially since i found an 8 lb can under a bench .
funny that we might think of plainbase as not very powerful ... but I notice that a 415 gr flatnose at 1300 in my 45-70 is pretty dang impressive ...
ken
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Pat
do you have Fouling Shot no.89 Jan-Feb 1991, page 5 has an interesting article by Andy Barniskis, about plain base bullets and match shooting
if you do not have it I could scan it and post it
Chuck
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Pat
do you have Fouling Shot no.89 Jan-Feb 1991, page 5 has an interesting article by Andy Barniskis, about plain base bullets and match shooting
if you do not have it I could scan it and post it
Chuck
I'd appreciate that Chuck. I'll pm my email address.
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is there a way to attach a .pdf, my scanner works better with that format
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plain base and barrel heating up ..
i believe it is the lubricant/conditioning of the barrel changing, not the barrel itself ...
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it is probably the one thing i have played with most in my rare attempts at serious predictable accuracy.
i confess I am clueless as to how a tiny bit of the wrong lube ... or viscosity ... can change a group from 1.5 moa to 15 moa ... how is that even possible ?? you would think the bullet would have to be terribly malformed to do that ... but even my worst castings ... bend them with pliars, etc. ...... won't shoot that bad ...
are no-lube cast plainbase still allergic to barrels heating up ?
interesting ... like mosquitos are interesting ...
ken
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Thanks Chuck but now I want to ask if anyone has the article Andy wrote preceding this one? I lost all my old FS in a move so can't search myself. I'd like to know all the particulars of what he was using and the results.
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Pat
give me some idea when and I'll look
I have everything back to the first ones
this issue just happened to be in the bathroom 
Chuck
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Absolutely no idea where to look Chuck. Just thought maybe I'd get lucky.
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10 years ago I was shooting the 308403 Pope in.my 30-06 finger seating as Pope intended. I started a match using no lube and did well the first two targets.
After that I had wild flyers but strangely no leading.
I went to my lubed bullets and accuracy came back somewhat. At times I'd get better grouping with no lube over lubed bullets,other times the opposite.
I never figured it out
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I never figured it out
Truer words were never spoken!
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Pat
I looked back to issue 29, unless it is buried in one of his articles, I could not find it
Chuck
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Pat
I looked back to issue 29, unless it is buried in one of his articles, I could not find it
Chuck
Thanks a lot for looking Chuck. I appreciate the time and effort.
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Another curiosity question; what is the highest score shot in a forty round match by a fixed plain base bullet. If known specs would be appreciated.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Another curiosity question; what is the highest score shot in a forty round match by a fixed plain base bullet. If known specs would be appreciated.
Unless someone knew of a case of someone shooting fixed case plain base bullets in a match I image it would take 100 years to go back and scour all the match reports looking for one. If it even existed.
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guys to look for that shoot PBB fixed on occasion
Bev Pinney, Jerry Bottinger, and soon Pat Iffland 
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guys to look for that shoot PBB fixed on occasion
Bev Pinney, Jerry Bottinger, and soon Pat Iffland
Bev has not been to any matches that I am aware since before Covid. When I last saw him he was PBB breach seat.
Not sure about the other two.
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>
Bev has not been to any matches that I am aware since before Covid. When I last saw him he was PBB breach seat.
Not sure about the other two.
I'm one of the other two, the Pat one. Checking the match reports and talking to someone that knew Bev was shooting a single shot Musgrave that he made a breach seater for. It was chambered in 32-30/30 short. He had to remove the bolt to put in his breach seater. I don't know what Jerry was doing but I'd like to.
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Pat
I could not find a Tongue in cheek emoji
IIRC Jerry was shooting a 35BR at the Atglen matches, I thought some of the matches he shot the 35BR PBB, no BRseat, in the results
but then again "I can't remember all the things I forgot"
I shot at Ridgway with him a couple of times, there, I think he was using a 7-08, definitely not PB
Chuck
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but then again "I can't remember all the things I forgot"
You're not alone there and it seems to be getting worse every day
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Pat
A question, shooting the CBA 6 bul. , one shot per bul. or 5 shots per bul.
I shoot a match her, 100 yds is one shot per bul, 200 yds is 5 shots per bul., I have been shooting two different guns. Breech seating a 32-40 No.1 Ruger, and a 12BVSS 308 Win., had to quit the 308, recoil is getting to me,
with the 32-40, there is enough time for BS, I shoot better scores at 200 than 100, mainly because the gun needs to be moved for each shot, been doing this in one form or another, since 1978, and I still haven't figured it out , I tried shooting one shot per bul 5 times and I get groups that are reasonable, but in different parts of the target, similar to what your targets show, if you are holding center each time, then every now and then everything works like magic., and I beat some of the jacketed guys..
Chuck
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Chuck on the score (5 shots for record and a sighter bull) its supposed to be 1 shot per bull although I'm sure different clubs use different ways of going about it but don't think a record could be set if shooting more than 1 shot per bull. I suck at score shooting and always have. Never could get used to moving the gun around the target and getting it to shoot to the point of aim. For me anyway it's a lot easier to chase a shot than try to hit a spot. And just so people know, the target pictures I show is the target laying on its side. The target frames where I shoot aren't big enough to have it standing up like it should be.
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Pat
Not Glad you have the same problem, seems when I ask, Nobody has the same problem. I even use a joystick front rest, not sure it is a help, most of the Schuetzen matches I have shot, were re-entry, lots of leeway to do better
I really don't like to post targets, because that was yesterday, trying to do it today is difficult. for me at least
still having fun though, and better than most keyboard shooters
Chuck
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i too suck as a score shooter. I like to shoot in hunting rifle class so skinny frond, six pound rifle. I haven't solved the problem of moving from bull to bull and having the same zero.
John
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As far as shots per bull for records the rule is as follows:
6.1.2 For all score targets in the National Tournament and all targets submitted for scoring as possible national records, only one shot per bullseye is allowed. In regional or local matches either one or multiple shots per bullseye are allowed at the discretion of the match director. However, even if multiple shots are fired on each bullseye, a score aggregate must be fired as four separate 5 shot matches and each match must use the proper time required by Article 7.1 and consist of one shot fired on each of the five bullseye during each time period. If a shooter shoots a score in the first 5 shot match that makes it mathematically 8 possible to break the aggregate score record at that distance or 100/200 yard combined aggregate score record (if both distances are to be shot at the shoot or tournament involved) by firing a record breaking score in the remaining three or seven matches, he may shoot the following matches firing one shot per bullseye on three to seven separate target cards while the other shooters are firing multiple shots per bullseye during the same three to seven remaining time periods.
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guys to look for that shoot PBB fixed on occasion
Bev Pinney, Jerry Bottinger, and soon Pat Iffland
Dave Stahl shot several ASSRA Hudson matches (100 shots offhand) at Beeson's range in Indiana in years past with fixed ammo. I think it was a .35 cal. using .357 Max cases.
I am trying to get fixed ammo to work for the offhand matches at Beeson's. 30-30 Ruger No 1 with a MATCO 12 inch twist barrel and a Hoch mold 177 grain plain base bullet.
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In a fit of financial madness I ordered the gas checked twin to my plain base mold today. If nothing else it'll give me an idea if it's the plain base bullet, the barrel, or the fact that I just can't shoot worth a damn. I'll use the same load and prep the bullet the same way so it'll be a meaningful test. Having a baseline to work from might be helpful or at the very least give me some other ideas to try out.
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Still following along, hoping the best for you!
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I think the biggest change one will see by going to gas check is the time in flight advantage as distance increases. Shooting groups at a hundred yards will show little to no difference, jmho. Hope you prove me wrong but then the questions will be in multiples as to why.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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I think the biggest change one will see by going to gas check is the time in flight advantage as distance increases. Shooting groups at a hundred yards will show little to no difference, jmho. Hope you prove me wrong but then the questions will be in multiples as to why.
I'm not going to change the load or anything else with the gas checked bullet so time of flight should be the same. I just want to see if adding a check will make a difference against a pb bullet and if so then try to figure out why and how to work around it. I'm not interested in shooting a checked bullet but a comparison has my curiosity piqued.
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pat i ... i bet you won't be able to resist shooting the un-checked gas check casting against the original full base mold ... both bare bottomed ...
we like to think there won't be a significant difference ..
but more data dots would be interesting ...
miss those 3 cent primers yet? we should start a go-fund-me for youse experimenters ...
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ken .. in his lazy boy thinking up projects for those who actually put out the effort to try things ...
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pat i ... i bet you won't be able to resist shooting the un-checked gas check casting against the original full base mold ... both bare bottomed
Ken I wasn't gonna try shooting the checked bullet unchecked but why not. The throat on my gun is noticeably off center and this might be an issue. I have a .310 x 1.5 degree PTG unithroater but I don't want to do anything because that would kick it out of the HNT and PRO classes so I'll just work with it. Maybe if I get bored someday down the road I'll run the throater in to see if there's an improvement. What the hell, there's not much difference getting beat in HNT. PRO, or HVY class. Beat is beat.
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I have shot gas cked vs. un cked with a few bullets designed for checks. The checks always improved groups substantially. I don't claim to know why. It will be interesting to see what happens with a true plain base bullet. The conventional wisdom is that the gas ck shank doesn't hurt anything with shooting plain base - but I wonder.
Great seeing someone trying to find such things out.
BTW, your rethroated rifle would still qualify for production class. One reason we invented hunting rifle class.
John
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Deleting the gas check from a bullet has never worked for me so far. I've tried with a number of 45s and 30s, none doing nearly as well. Looking at them and pondering, I really don't understand why but it is hard to argue with results. But you guys have piqued my curiosity about trying some actual plain base I have on hand.
Scott Ingle
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pat, why not try to breech seat the plain base , as the ss boys do and see if that would work ???
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pat, why not try to breech seat the plain base , as the ss boys do and see if that would work ???
Not a bad idea but my interest is getting a fixed case load shooting.
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7/19/24
Went out today. Temp 75 degrees. Wind light. Changes this time was adding a couple of strips of target paper up front between the barrel and forearm for a little upward pressure per Glenn Latham's recent post. Also cleaned the inside of the neck with an 8mm brush after every shot. The reason for this is after pulling a couple of seated bullets the base band was covered with carbon and maybe causing a little damage. 100 yards. Same 11.7 grains of #9 for 1300 fps. SD 9.5. White River primers in Lapua brass run into a Wilson die with a .336 bushing. Bullets started in the case by hand final seating depth gotten by chambering the round. The agg for the 10 groups is 1.155 so I'm sneaking up on that 1 inch agg I'm shooting for. Should be getting my gas checked twin to this mold this weekend. Looking forward to comparing the two. I hope this isn’t getting boring for everybody but I'm really enjoying playing with this thing and like I said before its record keeping for me which if I had to write it down would never get done.
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Wow! I'm impressed! Lots of shooters talk of 1" groups and most of them probably see one once in a while.
Darned few can honestly say that they averaged 1" for ten 5shot groups from a production rifle -- quite a different thing.
Most years 1.1" would be in the top three or so at the CBA nationals for the four group aggregate for 5 shot groups at 100 yd. in either Production or Hunting Rifle class.
John
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I received the gas checked twin to my PB mould yesterday. The good, the thing spits out the bullets like they're spring loaded. The bad. The check shanks diameter is too big to take either Hornady or Sage checks. I found some homemade aluminum checks I got from somewhere that were a struggle but I got them on. I don't know how this will effect accuracy so maybe a shooting comparison won't give true results. I emailed NOE explaining my problem hoping for a replacement with a proper shank diameter (hopefully) or a refund. We'll see what happens. Speaking of NOE molds in case someone besides myself didn't notice it the lock down screws for the sprue plate and stop screw aren't tightened when you get the mold, at least my last two weren't, which causes them to loosen up with use. Also you have to adjust both sprue plate screws on top to hold the plate tight to the blocks. At least that's been my experience and maybe other people's are different. I wish all moulds came with the heat resistant spring washer for the sprue plate like LBT used. Would be happy if they all had his sprue plate design too.
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Here's the bullets I'm going to try out next time for a comparison. I'm sticking with the PB bullet but have to see if a check makes a difference. From L to R. Plain Base, gas checked with a Sage check I muscled on, and a gas checked using the aluminum checks I got from Ed Doonan probably 30 years ago. I talked to AL at NOE today and the gas check mold is on the way back because the shank is too big. He's going to replace it or give me a refund. He's a good man to deal with.
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I have two versions of this bullet, the larger .311 and the smaller .309 diameter. I don't recall the Hornaday gas checks not fitting Maybe I flaired gas check before hand.
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I have two versions of this bullet, the larger .311 and the smaller .309 diameter. I don't recall the Hornaday gas checks not fitting Maybe I flaired gas check before hand.
Maybe I just got unlucky. The shank on mine is too big. As for flaring the check, I'm not getting into that. NOE said they'd make it right for me either with a refund or replacement. I told him the .311 mold would be alright too since its only a couple of grains heavier plus its in stock. Any of those choices works for me with my preference being a replacement with the proper shank diameter. They make this mold in .309, .310. and .311 diameters.
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Just in case you want to get into that (flairing gas check). I made one that mounts in my RCBS Lubramatic for larger 30 caliber. For smaller 22 caliber I turned down .250 rod to taper and flaired by hand. 🙂
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8/4/24.
Warm with minimal wind. 3 grooves lubed with Emmerts. 4 of the 6 groups under an inch. 1.131 Agg.
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Thanks Glenn. I'm going to go to a 10 shot group match at Windhill on the 24th. That should be interesting especially since I never shot it at 200 yards.
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Very good shooting and informative thread!
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Had a humbling 10 shot group match at Windhill today. It was hot and the wind was blowing but not huricane status. It was a lot of fun though and worth every one of the 400 miles round trip to spend time with guys I enjoy being around and consider friends. In the grand scheme of things that is, or should be, the most important part of this whole game we play. Ill just keep trying and hope next time sees improvement. On the bright side I'm pretty confident I'd be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 200 yards......assuming I'm on the inside that is. 
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Pat, I feel your pain, disappointment etc at the result but I am glad your experience was with good friends. My first CBA match was with a 308 that was only going about 1200fps and shot really well at home, with nice conditions. The match was warmer and much windier with the same result. But I met several of the group of that day and learned alot. Been hooked ever since due to comradei and encouragement. Looking at your groups, I am thinking 'not bad in wind and mirage' for plainbase. Match conditions seldom give me the results I have during development at home so it's interesting to see I'm not alone. Thanks for posting the results and looking forward to see how the next round goes.
Scott Ingle
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PatI ... i feel better now ...
I suppose I should be glad I helped make you feel better but for some strange reason I don't.
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Not wanting to give up on this thread I thought I'd add something. I couldn't get that Savage with the bad throat out of my mind so found and ordered a 30/06 take off barrel from ebay. Just got it on the gun. It looks pretty fair and the throat and chamber is straight unlike my Winchester so maybe there's some hope. On another note I was getting burned out from casting and figured a break was in order so I dragged out a couple of 22s I have plus put some effort into my flintlocks. I have a CZ 452 and a pillar bedded 10/22 I put a Green Mountain barrel on years ago. When I got the gun it looked like it'd been ridden hard and put up wet more than a few times. My cure was to sand the action down to the bare aluminum, change the barrel, pillar bed it, and sand down the stock and paint it with truck bed bed liner. Also threw away the barrel band and angled the fore end for that custom "Bubba" look. Actually I think it looks pretty good. I forgot how enjoyable it is to just throw some factory ammo in a bag and spend a day at the range without beating myself up. George Damron was generous enough to send me an assortment of Eley ammo to try out. The flintlock shooting is just plain fun. The CZ outshot the Ruger across the board but that was expected. Going down another rabbit hole I ordered a Ruger BX trigger group for the 10/22 yesterday. And I wonder why I drive A 14 year old car and do all my grocery shopping at Aldi. I have a bunch of rendezvous coming up but will get back to cast bullets in a month or so. Looking forward to seeing what the Savage will do. My next post will show what my CZ did at 50 yards with the Eley and CCI SV I've had luck with. Not great but not terrible either. I like posting pictures obviously.
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you need more projects!
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Alright! Sounds like a great day and doing a bit of ammo testing as a by product. What is the out to out dimension of your aiming squares?
If you measured them, what was the average for each three group column? I may have to get that CZ 22 that I have been intending to for 20 years.
You have gotten me fired up. As soon as I can walk again, I have to do something about my stash of 22 RF ammo that will rot down if I don't take action. I must have ten different kinds much of it with "Match" on the box. Two Kimbers and a Ballard with a Douglas barrel have never been really properly tested.
John
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Yes John, for pure shooting enjoyment the 22LR is hard to beat.
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John the targets are 1 inch edge to edge. I know that novella I wrote wasn't cast bullet related but at least the .22s are lead. I've never been much of a .22 fan but have to admit it was a pretty good time and Im looking forward to doing it again. Hopefully they'll get that hip figured out so you're back in business soon.
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John asked for the aggs of the different Eley bullets and the CCI. Three 5 shot groups aren't saying much but.
Contact - .538
Club - .522
Practice 100 -.649
Semi Auto BR - .474
Match - .428
Tenex - Bottom group messed up the agg
And finally and surprisingly
CCI SV- .383
When I get the trigger for my 10/22 I'm going to repeat the test using it instead of the CZ, except for the Eley Match which I ran out of. When I get back to casting I'll start a new thread dealing with the Savage since this one is getting a little top heavy.
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Thanks Pat.
It looks like you could say that your CZ will probably shoot five shot groups that will average very close to one MOA with a wide variety of ammo.
I have had a variety of very nice rimfire that couldn't come close to that level of precision -- and a few that could.
John
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22rf ... a friend stopped by with his 2 grade school sons after supper last night ... I grabbed 150 rounds of 22rf and my handy Remmy 552 from behind the kitchen door and those kids made a dozen popcans jump all over the back yard for an hour ... 150 smiles in one handful ...
not to be political but a 22rf plinkerfest is part of the America we are trying to save ..
maybe 22rf should be the 11th commandment ...
ken
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CZ
