Continued 30-06 Plain Base Quest

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  • Last Post 07 March 2024
pat i. posted this 26 February 2024

Had some decent luck with my 670 today. The details are.... 

Winchester 670 30-06. NOE 309-172-FN. Sized diameter .3095. 9 grains of WST. Winchester LR primers. Lapua brass. Wheel Weights. Emmerts lube. 100 yards. No idea on the velocity.

I'll have to get it out again to see if things repeat or if it was just a fluke. BUT at least it keeps my interest up. It was pretty calm with temps in the 40s. I'm sure some wind will make things real interesting but it's a start.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 February 2024

Looks good. I've been shooting 8.5 of WST or 452AA in the '06 with Accurate 31-155D and Winchester large pistol primers in Winchester 54.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 26 February 2024

Thanks Ed. I planned on trying some large pistol primers next time out. And you're the one who recommended trying WST in the first place so thanks for that too.

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Shuz posted this 26 February 2024

Pat, any plans to try powder coating this bullet?

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pat i. posted this 26 February 2024

No plans on powder coating Ray. I coat the few pistol bullets I shoot, have a hell of a time seeing the sights anymore, but will stay a tradionalist when it comes to rifles. I'm not looking for blistering speed. Just an easy on the shoulder and wallet toy that'll shoot decent groups.

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Ed Harris posted this 27 February 2024

I use LLA diluted with equal parts by liquid volume of aliphatic mineral spirits. 50-50 one light coat to turn bullets uniform brassy color. Wheelweights and plumber's lead with 1% tin added - about 8 BHN.

Fellows I shoot with have good results in a dozen or more Springfields, US M1917s, Winchester 54s, pre-64 Model 70s. 8 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup also good or 9 grains of 231. Typical 4-5" ten-shot, 200 yard groups with 600 yard sight dope for Ball M2.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John Alexander posted this 27 February 2024

I would call that a hell of a good start. I'll look forward to the next step.

John

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Ed Harris posted this 27 February 2024

John, Wr've been using essentially the same loads with various bullets, for 20 years. Started with Ideal 311241, then old Walt Melander NEI#69, also #311291 and #31141 with GC heel bored out to make .312 base band to size adjust to throat size. Accurate 31-155D our most recent iteration. The 31-171D is GC version used with 16 grains of #2400 or 20 grains 4227.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

I use LLA diluted with equal parts by liquid volume of aliphatic mineral spirits. 50-50 one light coat to turn bullets uniform brassy color. Wheelweights and plumber's lead with 1% tin added - about 8 BHN..

The first plain base mold tried was a 165 grain Accurate something or other. Im not sure but I'm thinking 311-165s, could be wrong. I compared Emmerts to LLA cut 30% with mineral spirits and the Emmerts shot better for me across the board.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 27 February 2024

Lookin' good, Pat!

Glenn

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linoww posted this 27 February 2024

I've had good luck with large pistol primers with the "faster" powders in the 30-06 as well.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

We shall see what we shall see when it comes to large pistol primers. I wish there was a way to use small rifle primers in this 06 since I have an abundance at the moment. And thanks to all who gave me encouragement and suggestions. I've been fighting it for a few years so far. I need all the help I can get.

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linoww posted this 27 February 2024

Didn't one of the big BR supply houses make bushings from large to small? I too am flush in SR and SP but have less large variety. Might have been Hart?

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 27 February 2024

It didn't work out well. The BR 6 PPC guys had them backing out of the primer pockets at 65,000 psi loads they used in the '90's. I may have a dozen or so in my BR box if interested. 

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

It didn't work out well. The BR 6 PPC guys had them backing out of the primer pockets at 65,000 psi loads they used in the '90's. I may have a dozen or so in my BR box if interested. 

I'd definitely be interested Rick. Let me know what you want for them in a pm. Are they glued In or just seated like a primer? I'll never get anywhere near 65,000 psi so it'll be something to try.

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Premod70 posted this 27 February 2024

Nice groups for one hundred yards, ever try the bullet at 200?

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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pat i. posted this 27 February 2024

Nice groups for one hundred yards, ever try the bullet at 200?

This is first time I got anything to shoot this good at 100 let alone 200 and I dont even know it will be repeatable next time.. Figure I better learn to crawl before taking up running

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MP1886 posted this 27 February 2024

Pat you might freechex your flatbase bullets.  The method doesn't require a gascheck shank on the bullet, but does require that you have a lubersizer like a Lyman or RCBS.  They are good up to the low 2000 fps. I presume you know what they are, if not pm me and I'll explain them to you.

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pat i. posted this 28 February 2024

Pat you might freechex your flatbase bullets.  The method doesn't require a gascheck shank on the bullet, but does require that you have a lubersizer like a Lyman or RCBS.  They are good up to the low 2000 fps. I presume you know what they are, if not pm me and I'll explain them to you.

As I said in Frogs thread all it would be is a gas checked bullet then and I'm playing the plain base game right now. I have plenty of molds if I wanted to shoot a checked bullet but that's not what I'm after with this thing. Thanks for the suggestion though. I do know what freechex are. I've been shooting cast bullets for around 45 years but still can't decide if it's 45 years of experience or one year of experience 45 times. At the moment I think it might be the latter. I don't have one of those lubersizers though. All I have is a few lubri-sizers. Would that work if I decide to try freechex down the road?

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linoww posted this 28 February 2024

I had one of the original free-chex tools and didn't find it worth the effort. The challenge is getting plainbase to shoot as plainbase, not with a pseudo gas check.Pats current target is pretty amazing with a production gun and plainbase.Those who don't realize that have never tried to get repeatable accuracy with fixed ammo plainbase.**Or only shot one good group and bragged about that one for years. like,let's say an 8x57 at 450 plus yards***one group means nothing. isn't it called a loober-sizer..hehe

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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MP1886 posted this 28 February 2024

I had one of the original free-chex tools and didn't find it worth the effort. The challenge is getting plainbase to shoot as plainbase, not with a pseudo gas check.Pats current target is pretty amazing with a production gun and plainbase.Those who don't realize that have never tried to get repeatable accuracy with fixed ammo plainbase.**Or only shot one good group and bragged about that one for years. like,let's say an 8x57 at 450 plus yards***one group means nothing. isn't it called a loober-sizer..hehe

 

 

That's not exactly what I'm talking about. I probably should have said free check. The one I'm talking about is not a tool.  You use your Lyman/RCBS luber/sizer to apply the check as you lube and size your cast bullets.

Of course you didn't find it worth the effort because you don't know what you're doing half the time. Yeah, I don't care for you either pal.

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MP1886 posted this 28 February 2024

 Pat I'm not trying to talk you into the free check. What I am going to do is send you a pm show you the method just for the point that you know exactly what it is and how it's applied. I'll send pics with it. Remember I'm not trying to sell you on it, I merely want you to under stand it. The one the keyboard commando is talking about WILL slow you down and preparing the cast bullets, the one I'm talking about will not. 

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pat i. posted this 28 February 2024

 Pat I'm not trying to talk you into the free check. What I am going to do is send you a pm show you the method just for the point that you know exactly what it is and how it's applied. I'll send pics with it. Remember I'm not trying to sell you on it, I merely want you to under stand it. The one the keyboard commando is talking about WILL slow you down and preparing the cast bullets, the one I'm talking about will not. 

Thanks but I have absolutely no interest in freechex or learning about any configuration of them. If I wanted a gas check bullet I'd use a gas check bullet mold. Right now I'm interested in getting a plain base shooting so adding anything to the base isn't on the table for discussion. Appreciate the offer to school me about freechex but I have no interest in them at all.

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linoww posted this 28 February 2024

Good shooting Pat. Maybe PP86'ed can post his match results with plainbase bullets to school all of us... Waiting.....

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Premod70 posted this 28 February 2024

Can somebody explain ‘free check’ or would that require another thread.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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pat i. posted this 28 February 2024

Can somebody explain ‘free check’ or would that require another thread.

Probably best to start a new thread so your question doesn't get lost in the static.

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MP1886 posted this 28 February 2024

Can somebody explain ‘free check’ or would that require another thread.
Premod70 I'll send you a pm on the free check. 

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Premod70 posted this 28 February 2024

Great MP 1886, thanks for the effort.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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linoww posted this 28 February 2024

Charlie Darnall in California made the original "freechex" tool that you punched beer cans into gaschecks. I had one back in the late nineteen eighties or early nineties.

They were pretty thin so you could put them around plainbase bullets and then run them through a sizer.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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MP1886 posted this 28 February 2024

linnoww I'll bet you don't know what is wrong with that tool.

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linoww posted this 28 February 2024

Or is it this from one of your other posts.

 

 

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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muley posted this 28 February 2024

Had some decent luck with my 670 today. The details are.... 

Winchester 670 30-06. NOE 309-172-FN. Sized diameter .3095. 9 grains of WST. Winchester LR primers. Lapua brass. Wheel Weights. Emmerts lube. 100 yards. No idea on the velocity.

I'll have to get it out again to see if things repeat or if it was just a fluke. BUT at least it keeps my interest up. It was pretty calm with temps in the 40s. I'm sure some wind will make things real interesting but it's a start.well 'ole boy" the lower left target with the ,857 looks good. the right hole looks like operator error.keep trying.

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pat i. posted this 29 February 2024

Thanks for the encouragement Muley. The question on the lower left target is is the outlier operator error or was it the four that landed in the 9 ring? Seems like the one that's out would fit in better with the other 3 groups than the four in the 9 ring. So many questions, so little time.

I'd like to ask a question about something before my thread gets hijacked. Why would anyone want to put a gas check on a plain base bullet? Seems to be defeating the whole purpose of having a pb mold in the first place. In most cases you can order the same mold with a check shank so why mess around. If it's an old mold design you already have or was gifted just take it for what it is and use it as intended. Seems like a solution looking for a problem to me.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 29 February 2024

Pat,

   It's that old "I can fix it myself" attitude.  You know, spend $100 on equipment to "fix" a problem you created when you "went cheap."  Buy a plain base mould to save money on gas checks, then find out your super magnum revolver leads the bore with the plain base bullets, so you get a gas check maker to fix the leading issue.  Are we having fun chasing our tail yet?  But if you've got a bunch of plain base pistol moulds and leading problems, they do cure it.

Glenn

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pat i. posted this 29 February 2024

Thanks for the reply Glenn. I guess if I was in that boat I'd just lower the velocity or do something different until the leading went away. I have one of those 30 caliber freechex tools I bought on a whim thinking all the money Id save on checks would finance my retirement and found it to be a giant PIA and not worth the effort. If I was looking for a faster load I'd just buy a bullet design that took gas checks to start with.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 February 2024

People don't understand that plain-based bullets perform best and are most accurate when cast soft, 8-10 Bhn, and velocities are limited to approximate the performance of black powder ammunition when substituting  modern smokeless powders.

Gaschecks are entirely unnecessary with such loads and attempts to improvise GCs onto a bullet not designed for them almost always causes bullet base deformation which impairs grouping.

Pistol and revolver loads should provide adequate gyroscopic stability, clean burning and good ballistic uniformity while remaining subsonic. The most useful handgun working range is from 700-1050 fps.

IIn rifles you will likewise approximate black powder rifle velocities similar to the .44-40 or .32-40. The most successful working range being from 1000-1350 fps. To exceed these velocity levels with good accuracy requires "heroic" measures which are for the most part impractical.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John Alexander posted this 29 February 2024

Will the folks picking at one another on this thread please find another form of entertainment.

Pat has an interesting thread going and some excellent preliminary results. Let's not muck it up with bickering.

Thanks.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 February 2024

Pat I ...  

 I've been shooting cast bullets for around 45 years but still can't decide if it's 45 years of experience or one year of experience 45 times.  "

**************************

DANG !! ... that is a Jewel !! ... will be laughing at that one for a long time coming ...  thanks ... 

***********************************

and thanks also for respecting the plain base thing ... i haven't used a gas check for 25 years ...  ain't right that a gas check costs more than the bullet ...   I am proud to wear a Purista T-Shirt ...

[[[[[[  NOTE:  ok, gas checks add accuracy in cartridge cast ... but so do Hornady AMax ]]]]]]]]]

*************

your postings on pb in 30-06 might even inspire me to keep developing accuracy in my spiffy pair of Tikka 55 in 308 ...  my shop range is only 35 yards and i have been happily using up my large supply of 32-20 castings and fending off the attacking hordes of Ginger Ale cans ...

....i feel a need to make closely spaced little holes in paper ... i think i hear my lonely rcbs 30-180 mold i got from Mr. Reiss here calling to me  ...    hope it don't mind traveling downrange with a bare fanny ...

ken

 

 

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linoww posted this 29 February 2024

CBA shooter Chauncey Roe in Springfield Oregon used to say" the downfall of western civilization can be traced the John Barlows introduction of the Gascheck"

He had a Bsllard he called Gertrude..Funny fellow.

gosh thst was almost 30 years ago!

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 29 February 2024

George I shot next next to Chauncey at a nationals in Springfield once and like you said he was pretty funny. A really nice guy too.

Ken I have my eye out for a 308 with a straight chamber and throat which my 06 unfortunately doesn't have. Its not terrible but not right. I think a 308 throat would make this all a lot easier as far as fitting the bullet. As for the experience thing I wish I could lay claim to it but read it somewhere in a different context so use it anytime you want. Give it a couple of weeks and I'll forget I ever heard it so will get to have a laugh all over again.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 February 2024

pat i ... i have an extra tikka 55 in 308 ... not sure why i need 2 ... i havent shot it seriously much, so not sure if it is a lucky one ... it had a crack behind the tang, so i glued it back together and pillar bedded it while i wuz at it ... if interested i might cave in .. it is the deluxe blond stock ... nice looking ..

i might mention these also have a terrific trigger ...

ken

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pat i. posted this 29 February 2024

Interesting Ken but two problems. I don't want to spend a lot of money, Tikka money that is, and more importantly I don't think pillar bedding would be allowed in hunter class but thanks for the offer. From what I've heard they're excellent rifles.

What's weird is with all the other crap I have I don't have a 308

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 March 2024

pati ... ok, then how about my remmy 722 in 300 savage ... condition 9/10 ... be the only guy shooting 300 sav in hunter class...   i only shoot this plinking standing so i don't know how accurate it is ... or even what the throat looks like in this gun. if interested i could send you a chamber casting.  i always wondered why the m14 didn't just shoot 300 savage ...

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pat i. posted this 01 March 2024

Again Ken I really appreciate your offer but think that short neck and brass availability would be a killer to work around. Let me do a little more research on it. I love the long neck length of the 06 and if it had a ball seat I'd love it even more but that's not the case.

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Ed Harris posted this 01 March 2024

The 03A3 Springfield has a cylindrical ball seat which earlier '03s and commercial '06s don't. Frank Marshall attributed the great success of the A3 in military matches to this and it's better sights.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 01 March 2024

That's interesting and something I had no idea about. I can't understand the reasoning behind getting rid of the ball seat in 06 commercial rifles. Maybe because bullets choices were getting shorter and more streamlined so they had more jump to the rifling and were less accurate. But on the other hand weren't the bullets used in WW2 147 grains? Who knows........maybe somebody does but it ain't me.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 March 2024

300 sav... i just looked up the saami specs and the 300 sav freebore and throat is almost identical to the 308 win. ... but with about 50 per cent longer ball seat ... hmmm .

i am thinking the short neck is better for cast accuracy ... in my mini-return to accuracy ... the biggest " tweak " improvement has  been inside tapering the 308 neck so the bullet is only actually grasped near the shoulder of the case ...   the core group is about the same but the " outliars " are fewer and closer to center ...   i think ... ...

hey this accuracy thing could be fun ... i admit i kind of miss the agony,  despair, and self-flagellation  ... heh ...

ken

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RicinYakima posted this 01 March 2024

Self-flagellation is correct term. 

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Ed Harris posted this 01 March 2024

The WW2 Ball M2 flat-based bullets were 152 grains. The APM2 bullets ran from 165-168 grains. Older stocks of 174-grain Ball M1 were used also until expended.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 07 March 2024

Took the winchester out again today. Results weren't as consistant or good as last time but I'll take it considering the cold.

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pat i. posted this 07 March 2024

I was digging around looking for something and came across a Savage 110 in 30-06 that I forgot I even had. Someone must have given it to me. It was missing the bolt head and a couple of other bolt parts. I had a spare bolt so took the parts I needed to get this one going. This is the same load as the Winchester. I looked at the barrel with my borescope and the throat leaves a lot to be desired. I'm going to firelap it to see if there's any improvement. I've always said if one aggravating project isn't enough pair it up with another

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