Haven's annealed a case in 20 years and left my annealing set up in Maine. But my match brass is beginning to neck crack prematurely at 80 reloads (I use Lee Collet die) and hope to save them by annealing.
I have always thought that dipping the necks into the lead pot at a certain temperature for the right amount of time should be a way to get consistent results. Just theory, i have never tried it. Will this work? If not, why not?
John
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porthos said
there are instructions out there to make your own. you need to be a little "handy" in your shop.
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I found this annnealer on-line a few years back. Never got around to building it::
https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/an-inexpensive-annealer-that-works.237119/
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When you aneal bras cases you do not need to have ice water to "quench" them in. Even if you simply let the cases air cool the results will be the same. I spent too much time hand-forging sterling silver and flatware. We used to aneal and quench in a "Pickling " solution because it helped to clean the jeweler's bronze or German Silver that I would make copies of before making a silver utensile. The nonferrous metals will all aneal and soften whether you quench them or not.
B.E.Brickey
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MP1886 says"
"John I'm positive that this has happened to you. You're seating bullets and you can that there is a definitely difference in seating force required to seat a bullet. I have to think that changes things. Another thing that I think has an effective is dirty case necks. Not everyone cleans them."
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Yes, neck tension varies as felt at the press handle. The question isn't is there a difference but is the difference big enough to matter? The variations in force to overcome neck tension are tiny. The variations in chamber pressure (pushing to overcome neck tension) are a hundred times greater. That's basically why when you do shooting test to see if it makes a difference you can't detect and difference in MV or group size.
It's like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. It changes the list of the boat a bit but you can't measure it.
John
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Don't most benchrest shooters seat the bullet to the rifling, a slip fit and a tight neck to keep things straight. In that situation I would not think neck tension would matter.
I mostly shoot levers and milsurps with irons, I do like them to shoot well but extreme accuracy is like chasing your tail, at my age spinning to fast I'd just fall down anyway. I am more interested in brass life especially lately. I hold the brass in my fingers and spin in a torch flame and drop in water before it gets hot. I do try to be consistent and don't let the neck get red.
Seems Harbor Freight carries a circular tip for a propane torch, might have to check that out.
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Then as you keep shooting and reloading them they get harder each time. If you think about many benchrest shooters don't have a snug fit of the bullet in the case neck, but then again they aren't loading for hunting, they assemble the load at the bench. That right their tells me that John Alexander may be on the right track as benchresters ammo doesn't really have neck tension. Correct if I'm wrong.
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Of course, case neck tension will lesson after the cartridge case necks are annealed, because the brass is softer and expands more easily, when fired. You can size the necks down to a smaller diameter, but the annealed cases will still have less tension than un-annealed cases will have after the same increased neck diameter reduction. Thats the importance of getting every case neck annealed with the same temperature and the same amount of time the case is in contact with the flame.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
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John I'm positive that this has happened to you. You're seating bullets and you can that there is a definitely difference in seating force required to seat a bullet. I have to think that changes things. Another thing that I think has an effective is dirty case necks. Not everyone cleans them.
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MP1886, Ken has also raised the question about whether the neck expands before the bullet moves and maybe there isn't any neck tension in actual practice. I doubt that anybody knows yet but it is an interesting question.
Will have to look up and see what Litz actually found on neck tension. Dang, another expensive book.
John
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Read this John:
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/when-does-neck-tension-cease-to-matter.4000079/
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It seems to me that a uniform time of dip into lead held at a constant temperature only slightly hotter than required to annealing should have a pretty uniform effect on the metal.
Luckily it doesn't make any difference. Although uniform neck tension is believed to be helpful by those who have never tested to find out, readers of the Fouling Shot know it affects neither group size or uniformity of muzzle velocity. See the tests in Fouling Shots # 223, 224, and 229 where actual shooting tests are reported.
John
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if you are just trying to get longer case life; most anything will work. if you think that the bullet neck tension will be uniform you are fooling yourself. the only way to get uniform neck tension is to use a PROPER annealing device. there are instructions to make your own goggle annealing machines.
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many great ideas and methods here. when annealing and fire forming 7.62x54r cases to austrian 8x50r i used the hot lead/water quenching method with good success. important to keep water quenching area a distance from the hot lead. i shortened the russian cases to 50mm first. after annealing, a few gr of unique with 1/4" tissue, followed by cream of wheat and a candle wax neck plug. then fired in the 8x50 straight pull made a decent case for reloading. best regards
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I used to use the basic annealing method that Ken and MP1886 described but the last time I annealed I went to a new method. I put a socket that the cartridge will fit down into and use a short extension in the socket and put the extension in a hand drill. I place a pan of water on the bench and work in the darkest part of the shot. That helps me to read the color better. I light the propane torch and set it on the work bench, I drop a cartridge case in the socket and turn the drill on and hold the rotating case neck in the tip of the flame. When the desired color is reached, I turn the drill upside down and off and dump the case in the water. I found this method to work quite well and is very fast.
The next time that I anneal cases, I'm going to try using my little micro propane torch. I think that by doing so, I can control the case neck temperatures better. That way, I'll have much less BTU's to control. I did not invent this method; I saw it on U Tube.
That gadget that Tom showed in his picture, sure did look interesting.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
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OU812, Thanks for the head's up. That's one of the great things about the collet die you can change the neck tension at will without buying another die or another bushing. Us depression babies love cheap.
MP 1886, Everybody to their own poison. I used the method you mentioned for many years and then pretty much stopped annealing when I got collet dies for most calibers. I sat the pan with the water on a Goodwill acquired 45 record player which let the torch heat the necks uniformly. I didn't find it particularly fast but them i am all thumbs.
Thanks to all the posters who offered information on annealing in lead. You saved me lots of time when I started trying to learn an efficient way to make it work.
John
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I notice neck tension is lower after annealing. Bullets are easier to seat and easier to be pushed too far back into case when chambered. After annealing I would have to increase neck tension with collet die adjustment.
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I'll vote to deprimed the cases and stand them in water the proper depth and heating them with a propane torch. Much fast then the molten lead method. As far as knocking the cases over in the watey, I do that as then you can grab them out fast because they have cooled off.
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I have finally given it a try and after some time spent figuring out what seemed to work I think it is a reasonable method to anneal cases for anybody that doesn't already have a setup that works for them.
A light coat of Mobile ! on outside of neck prevented lead from sticking to neck if spent primers are left in cases.
I set pot at 850 F and used 750F Tempilaq just back of case body-shoulder intersection to find out how long needed to melt Tempilaq.
Once set up with something to brace my arm on, I found it easy to control depth and time with good uniformity. I stopped the heat flow toward the case head by dropping them on a soaked paper towel.
150 cases took 30 minutes. Plenty fast if I only have to do it once per 80 loading cycles.
I like it. It is simple. You know what the max temp your brass has been heated to (850F in my case) with a torch method it could be much higher, It requires no extra equipment to buy or clutter.
I don't yet know if it worked. I have fired about 200 "annealed" cases in a match a couple of weeks ago but haven't cleaned, and reloaded them. The last few times I used the cases I would find a half dozen or so new cracked necks. If I have drastically reduced or eliminated the neck cracking. I will claim I have annealed them by my definition since cracked necks was the reason in the first place.
John
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there are instructions out there to make your own. you need to be a little "handy" in your shop
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i use the torch in a darkened room scheme ... when the first test starts to glow just a little, i stop an estimated few seconds earlier on all the following brass necks; a light glow is a tad too hot ... seems to work, my goal is only to make any case forming easier and to avoid split necks in sizing.
if you have loaded brass a whole number of cycles, be aware also of loose primer pockets ... this can lead to pipping your bolt face from tiny gas leaks. is there a scheme to retighten primer pockets ?
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a fun fact to contemplate when fiddling with these ... the glow you see is not from heating up the brass ... the glow comes from the brass cooling off ...
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