Haven's annealed a case in 20 years and left my annealing set up in Maine. But my match brass is beginning to neck crack prematurely at 80 reloads (I use Lee Collet die) and hope to save them by annealing.
I have always thought that dipping the necks into the lead pot at a certain temperature for the right amount of time should be a way to get consistent results. Just theory, i have never tried it. Will this work? If not, why not?
John
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This will work, I tried this method many years ago when I still lived in Illinois.
In summary, unless you have lots of time, I'd go with another approach.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Article from Fouling Shot:
An Alternate Annealing Methodology
Ric Bowman (RicinYakima)
Something as simple as annealing brass should not be as expensive or time consuming as it always seems to be in the doing. The following is not my invention, but that of Mike Rector, a noted metallurgist and engineer who also shoots Creedmoor Style BPCR. You only need three things: a PID lead pot controller, an aluminum plate that will float on the top of the lead pot and an aluminum cooling plate.
I have a small four pound Lee pot that is just about perfect. When almost full, I float a round plate of aluminum into which I have drilled a center hole for the PID probe to go to the bottom of the pot, and 12 blind holes for the case necks to fit into. I was only concerned with 30/06 case necks, so I used an 11/32” drill, but it requires sized cases or they stick when they get hot. The next time I get the drill press out I will open then up with the “S” size drill bit. It requires a temperature of 658 F. for one hour to anneal brass, but at 750 F. it only requires 30 seconds. The PID is set for 750 F.
The operation is simple: put 10 cases neck down in the holes one at a time, then with needle nose pliers, take the first in case out and set it head down in the aluminum block until you have all ten cooling. Put ten more into the floating plate, then remove them and put them into the cooling block. The first ten are cool enough to put back into the plastic boxes with bare fingers! But now the floating plate is back to temperature, so put in ten more cases, then put those to cool in the block. The second ten are ready to box up. It took me 20 minutes to do the first 100 cases, but in the next 30 minutes I did 300 more cases. There is a natural safety factor with cases over two inches in length. Regardless of the time I left an un-primed case heat, it would not get hotter than 650 F over one inch above the plate. I carefully checked with a heat stick crayon and 30/06 and longer cases loose heat so fast, it can anneal no higher than that at a setting of 750 F.
Some warnings: I tried to do 7.62 X 39 cases, but they have so little mass and are so short that it annealed almost up to the extractor cut in 30 seconds. 30/30 Winchester cases were done in 10 seconds, so you have to different timing and / or temperature values. The floating plate’s holes shrink as it heats, the first un-sized case I tried stuck and I had to take everything apart and cool it to get it out. There has to be enough lead in the pot for the plate to have full bottom contact, or you will not have the same heat on all cases.
April 10, 2014
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I used to anneal 45/70 cases this way and dipping in lead does work, but there is a trick at preventing the lead sticking to case. Do you leave spent primer in case before dipping in lead? Do you coat the case in oil? Sorry I fotget.
So I just use cordless drill, deep well 1/4" drive socket, propane torch.
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I have used the molten lead dip to anneal cartridge cases many years ago when forming 6mm TCU from 223 cases. The primers were removed to allow easy flow of the alloy into and out of the cases. Dry but dirty cases seemed to work well. And I timed the period of time in the melt. Then struck the case on a edge of a pan to dislodge any lead from the surface of the case. Then into the cold quench water. It has been too long ago to recall the time in the melt, but would suggest pure lead at 800 degrees. It tends to not stick as badly and will not solidify in the case so shakes out easier.
I did try the candle and a deep well socket in a slowly turning drill and then into the quench. The carbon build up on the cases became objectionable and difficult to remove easily.
I do not do enough cases any more so the preferred annealing machine would not be justified for me. The propane torch would be suitable for my casual use. Smaller cases need less time in the heat than larger cases so keep that in mind when trying this method.
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Mr Alexander, if you're in the Connecticut area you can run them on mine. Drop me a PM.
-------- Andrew BPCR in 45-70, and 38-55
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Stand the cases up in a shallow pan of water. Hold this around the case mouth or end of case for an X count and knock the case over. Been using this for over 30-years. I do all cases at the of the end of the shooting season.......40-70 SS, 38-55 and .22 BR. Bought the tip from a place called Woodchuck Den, might be out of business today.
Opinions vary on the merit of the water quench afterwards.
Tom
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John:
I have recently started annealing my brass in my lead pot.
I put a light coat of case lube on them and dip up just past the shoulder for a counted 5 seconds. I then lay them on the folded up towel that I drop bullets onto. Brass does not need to be quenched to anneal it.
I do 7 .30-06 cases at a time, held in my hand. If any grains of unburned powder fall onto the lead, it will ignite and scare you. I dip them with the spent primers in place to keep the lead from going inside the case, and the case lube helps keep the lead from sticking to the outside. There is usually some lead on the outside but you can flick it off with your finger nail.
When I first tried this, I dipped a couple for 3 seconds and took them to work and our metallurgist mounted them and tested the microhardness. I don’t remember the numbers, but the 3 second dip was enough to soften them, so I figured 5 would be cheap insurance.
In the past, I used the socket in a drill and a propane torch. This works, but it is harder to control how hot the case gets. If the case gets red hot and is copper colored after it cools, you have oxidized some of the zinc out of it. Not good.
Wayne
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I anneal 223 cases and 308 or 303 cases with a small butane torch,which has a fine pointed flame.Do this in a dark area,hold the case at the base with your thumb and forefinger,put the flame on the case shoulder and rotate the case in the flame.Doesn’t take long to do a case and get the hang of it,you can drop into water but I now put them onto a metal tray without quenching.If you water quench,blow the water out of the primer pocket before drying as they will get a small crust in the primer hole.
This may be good enough for those that use the A.M.P. Machine,but it is far cheaper.
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How deep are your pockets? We have a pair of these at my club. They are GREAT but pricey.
Brass Annealing Machine | Annealing Made Perfect (ampannealing.com)
Cheers from New Zealand
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Yes, you can. Temperature needs to be 650-750 degrees F,
The rub comes in regarding the depth you insert the case and the total time of immersion. A consistency issue for case to case.
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Thanks to all for the many comments and suggestions. I am going to give the lead dipping method a try and see how it goes.
John
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If lead clings to case try wiping off with damp cloth. There is a trick to annealing brass cases in lead, but I do not remember.
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i use the torch in a darkened room scheme ... when the first test starts to glow just a little, i stop an estimated few seconds earlier on all the following brass necks; a light glow is a tad too hot ... seems to work, my goal is only to make any case forming easier and to avoid split necks in sizing.
if you have loaded brass a whole number of cycles, be aware also of loose primer pockets ... this can lead to pipping your bolt face from tiny gas leaks. is there a scheme to retighten primer pockets ?
*******************
a fun fact to contemplate when fiddling with these ... the glow you see is not from heating up the brass ... the glow comes from the brass cooling off ...
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there are instructions out there to make your own. you need to be a little "handy" in your shop
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I have finally given it a try and after some time spent figuring out what seemed to work I think it is a reasonable method to anneal cases for anybody that doesn't already have a setup that works for them.
A light coat of Mobile ! on outside of neck prevented lead from sticking to neck if spent primers are left in cases.
I set pot at 850 F and used 750F Tempilaq just back of case body-shoulder intersection to find out how long needed to melt Tempilaq.
Once set up with something to brace my arm on, I found it easy to control depth and time with good uniformity. I stopped the heat flow toward the case head by dropping them on a soaked paper towel.
150 cases took 30 minutes. Plenty fast if I only have to do it once per 80 loading cycles.
I like it. It is simple. You know what the max temp your brass has been heated to (850F in my case) with a torch method it could be much higher, It requires no extra equipment to buy or clutter.
I don't yet know if it worked. I have fired about 200 "annealed" cases in a match a couple of weeks ago but haven't cleaned, and reloaded them. The last few times I used the cases I would find a half dozen or so new cracked necks. If I have drastically reduced or eliminated the neck cracking. I will claim I have annealed them by my definition since cracked necks was the reason in the first place.
John
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I'll vote to deprimed the cases and stand them in water the proper depth and heating them with a propane torch. Much fast then the molten lead method. As far as knocking the cases over in the watey, I do that as then you can grab them out fast because they have cooled off.
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I notice neck tension is lower after annealing. Bullets are easier to seat and easier to be pushed too far back into case when chambered. After annealing I would have to increase neck tension with collet die adjustment.
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OU812, Thanks for the head's up. That's one of the great things about the collet die you can change the neck tension at will without buying another die or another bushing. Us depression babies love cheap.
MP 1886, Everybody to their own poison. I used the method you mentioned for many years and then pretty much stopped annealing when I got collet dies for most calibers. I sat the pan with the water on a Goodwill acquired 45 record player which let the torch heat the necks uniformly. I didn't find it particularly fast but them i am all thumbs.
Thanks to all the posters who offered information on annealing in lead. You saved me lots of time when I started trying to learn an efficient way to make it work.
John
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I used to use the basic annealing method that Ken and MP1886 described but the last time I annealed I went to a new method. I put a socket that the cartridge will fit down into and use a short extension in the socket and put the extension in a hand drill. I place a pan of water on the bench and work in the darkest part of the shot. That helps me to read the color better. I light the propane torch and set it on the work bench, I drop a cartridge case in the socket and turn the drill on and hold the rotating case neck in the tip of the flame. When the desired color is reached, I turn the drill upside down and off and dump the case in the water. I found this method to work quite well and is very fast.
The next time that I anneal cases, I'm going to try using my little micro propane torch. I think that by doing so, I can control the case neck temperatures better. That way, I'll have much less BTU's to control. I did not invent this method; I saw it on U Tube.
That gadget that Tom showed in his picture, sure did look interesting.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
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many great ideas and methods here. when annealing and fire forming 7.62x54r cases to austrian 8x50r i used the hot lead/water quenching method with good success. important to keep water quenching area a distance from the hot lead. i shortened the russian cases to 50mm first. after annealing, a few gr of unique with 1/4" tissue, followed by cream of wheat and a candle wax neck plug. then fired in the 8x50 straight pull made a decent case for reloading. best regards
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if you are just trying to get longer case life; most anything will work. if you think that the bullet neck tension will be uniform you are fooling yourself. the only way to get uniform neck tension is to use a PROPER annealing device. there are instructions to make your own goggle annealing machines.
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It seems to me that a uniform time of dip into lead held at a constant temperature only slightly hotter than required to annealing should have a pretty uniform effect on the metal.
Luckily it doesn't make any difference. Although uniform neck tension is believed to be helpful by those who have never tested to find out, readers of the Fouling Shot know it affects neither group size or uniformity of muzzle velocity. See the tests in Fouling Shots # 223, 224, and 229 where actual shooting tests are reported.
John
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Read this John:
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/when-does-neck-tension-cease-to-matter.4000079/
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MP1886, Ken has also raised the question about whether the neck expands before the bullet moves and maybe there isn't any neck tension in actual practice. I doubt that anybody knows yet but it is an interesting question.
Will have to look up and see what Litz actually found on neck tension. Dang, another expensive book.
John
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John I'm positive that this has happened to you. You're seating bullets and you can that there is a definitely difference in seating force required to seat a bullet. I have to think that changes things. Another thing that I think has an effective is dirty case necks. Not everyone cleans them.
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Of course, case neck tension will lesson after the cartridge case necks are annealed, because the brass is softer and expands more easily, when fired. You can size the necks down to a smaller diameter, but the annealed cases will still have less tension than un-annealed cases will have after the same increased neck diameter reduction. Thats the importance of getting every case neck annealed with the same temperature and the same amount of time the case is in contact with the flame.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
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Then as you keep shooting and reloading them they get harder each time. If you think about many benchrest shooters don't have a snug fit of the bullet in the case neck, but then again they aren't loading for hunting, they assemble the load at the bench. That right their tells me that John Alexander may be on the right track as benchresters ammo doesn't really have neck tension. Correct if I'm wrong.
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Don't most benchrest shooters seat the bullet to the rifling, a slip fit and a tight neck to keep things straight. In that situation I would not think neck tension would matter.
I mostly shoot levers and milsurps with irons, I do like them to shoot well but extreme accuracy is like chasing your tail, at my age spinning to fast I'd just fall down anyway. I am more interested in brass life especially lately. I hold the brass in my fingers and spin in a torch flame and drop in water before it gets hot. I do try to be consistent and don't let the neck get red.
Seems Harbor Freight carries a circular tip for a propane torch, might have to check that out.
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MP1886 says"
"John I'm positive that this has happened to you. You're seating bullets and you can that there is a definitely difference in seating force required to seat a bullet. I have to think that changes things. Another thing that I think has an effective is dirty case necks. Not everyone cleans them."
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Yes, neck tension varies as felt at the press handle. The question isn't is there a difference but is the difference big enough to matter? The variations in force to overcome neck tension are tiny. The variations in chamber pressure (pushing to overcome neck tension) are a hundred times greater. That's basically why when you do shooting test to see if it makes a difference you can't detect and difference in MV or group size.
It's like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. It changes the list of the boat a bit but you can't measure it.
John
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When you aneal bras cases you do not need to have ice water to "quench" them in. Even if you simply let the cases air cool the results will be the same. I spent too much time hand-forging sterling silver and flatware. We used to aneal and quench in a "Pickling " solution because it helped to clean the jeweler's bronze or German Silver that I would make copies of before making a silver utensile. The nonferrous metals will all aneal and soften whether you quench them or not.
B.E.Brickey
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porthos said
there are instructions out there to make your own. you need to be a little "handy" in your shop.
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I found this annnealer on-line a few years back. Never got around to building it::
https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/an-inexpensive-annealer-that-works.237119/
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