anyone load for .223 in 1:7 twist?

CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 04 January 2017

MP molds makes the 22 Nato which shoots fine in a 7 twist.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

David Reiss posted this 04 January 2017

I just received a NOE 225-70-RN which I am going to be testing in a 1:8 twist AR. On paper this looks to be a promising combo. I will post my results when I have them. Your 1:7 twist would also handle this bullet just fine.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 04 January 2017

TRK

I shoot the Lyman 225646 cast in Lyman #2 sized/checked .225", tumble lubed Whites Deluxe 45:45:10 once before size/check then twice after. My charge is the lightest H4895 or AA2230 charge that gives reliable function in my AR. The load consistently groups 1.2' @100 yards benched. My rifle has a 22” HB 1:7. My bullet all up weight in #2 is 59 gr. My ammo is loaded on a Lee Classic Cast Turret. Cases are flaired .004 before seating bullets and the last step closes that slight flair with a slight .004” past FL size adjusted Lee FCD. Ignoring my specific flare then crimp steps makes the AR shoot groups twice as big. My brass is mixed NATO and checked for length /trimmed after every sizing with a Lee Zip Trim

The mold is currently available at Midway:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/790896/lyman-2-cavity-bullet-mold-225646-22-caliber-225-diameter-55-grain-semi-point-gas-check

Handles are separately sold and not included with the mold.

I use the standard Lee Lube and Size Kit .225” on my Lee Single station press for size/check:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/104209/lee-bullet-lube-and-sizing-die-kit-225-diameter

The load knocks over competition silhouettes to 100yd just fine and also murders giant snapping turtles with gusto. My bullets fit well and I have zero leading. That is pretty good for cast in an AR, The same load groups slightly better, just under 1", from my .223 NEF Ultra Varmint rifle. I only shoot cast all calibers I load to .458 WM.

Gary

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 04 January 2017

I've got the 646. I'll also look into the NOE moulds.

THANKS!

Attached Files

Standard Member

OU812 posted this 04 January 2017

When shooting cast I have heard stories of lead deposits stopping up the gas port and shaved lead collecting in flash suppressor of AR's. Maybe loading the rounds too hot caused this...I am sure.

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 04 January 2017

Not a concern - I expect to be able to clean the gas tube if needed. THANKS!

Attached Files

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 04 January 2017

OU812 you said, “When shooting cast I have heard stories of lead deposits stopping up the gas port and shaved lead collecting in flash suppressor of AR's. Maybe loading the rounds too hot caused this...I am sure.”

When load pressure and velocity is higher than needed to cycle an AR15 with cast bullets the bullet fit and alloy selection to the load level become exponentially critical. ignoring that is what causes all kinds of leading and cast bullets flying all over the place from an AR15.

Selecting bullet alloy strength to load level is simple book science but is not a given for stubborn people. It requires indicating ink on the bullets of dummy loads to show and verify cast bullet fit. A drop in and finger push of an inked dummy load tells the complete story of bullet fit for an AR15 with cast. If you are unwilling to do that then you rely on nonsense about bullet fit and depend on luck. The round should NOT drop all the way in but should take a 1-2 pound finger push to fully chamber the inked dummy and the ejected inked dummy should show smeared ink on the front driving band indicating fit. Accuracy of 1.5MOA is a reasonable expectation with good fit and good alloy selection to load level for an AR15 with cast bullets. If you absolutely have to do better than that, shoot jacketed bullets.

Gary

Attached Files

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 04 January 2017

TRK you said, “Not a concern - I expect to be able to clean the gas tube if needed. THANKS!"

Cleaning the gas tube is a non-issue when the bullet strength matches the load level and the bullets fit correctly. If your 225646 bullets lead your gas tube, they are the wrong alloy for your load level and they don't fit your rifle well enough.

Gary.

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 04 January 2017

Hmmmm. Alloy, as in which one. I have 30:1; easily made into 20:1; WW + 11% tin; linotype; and pure tin.

I would ASSUME that the WW+tin or linotype would be first picks; perhaps 20:1 for slower velocities.

Attached Files

CBA Member

David Reiss posted this 05 January 2017

WW + 11% tin is a big waste of time. Limit the addition of tin to no more that 3%. Start with 1% and only add more to get better fill out. With .22 caliber molds you may find the size of the sprue plate hole to have an effect on good fill. Also with .22 CBs start with as cast and check for leading. You may need to drop quench and/or heat treating to get them to the desired hardness. I've had some good luck with as cast with COWWs in some guns, others with a slightly softer allow. However most of my .22 CB experience has been with TC Contenders.

John A. or Joe B. should jump into this conversation, they both have a lot of experience with .22 calibers, but not in ARs as far as I know. But most of what they have found to work in their bolt guns will work with ARs also.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 05 January 2017

TRK

The minimum load to function your AR15 with any practical powder will have enough load pressure to require BHN15 both to handle the pressure and to resist deforming bullets cycling from your magazine. Your first choice from what you have sounds pretty good but may be too hard. Test it.. Bullets that are too hard -or- too soft in an AR15 shave at the barrel vent and lead the gas tube. That alloy match is a critical factor in getting the AR15 to shoot cast bullets well. I mix a BHN 15 recreational alloy with soft range scrap and Linotype scrap at 1:1 and it tests consistently BHN 15 as cast for me. I also shoot certified Lyman #2 from Rotometals and wouldn't hesitate to use their BHN15 certified Hardball Pistol alloy that goes on sale frequently.

The fun factor with an AR15 that shoots cast well is very rewarding and seriously economical.

Gary

Attached Files

CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 05 January 2017

You will have easier results using WW, either air cooled for lower velocities or water dropped for velocities that operate the action, and using a 0.227” as sized bullet. AR's are over gassed unless you have an adjustable gas valve on it.

Attached Files

Standard Member

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 05 January 2017

I've not loaded cast for 22's. But am starting on them in several calibers. (load for a couple of dozen other calibers)

Since I have several hundred pounds of WW+11% the waste of time (and money) would be finding more WW to thin it out. It makes sharp consistent bullets. Tin is much cheaper (for me) than lead or WW. (I happen to have a good source of scrap lead-free solder.)

So my guess is that the harder alloys would be better for the 22's based only on what I've read over the years. Just looking for verification or repudiation of that from someone who's been down the road.

Attached Files

CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 05 January 2017

I have several hundred pounds of WW+11%

In most references I've read, anything over 10% tin in an alloy will have unalloyed free tin in the mix. Tin is a grain refiner and doesn't really add much hardness. I've found less is better.

So my guess is that the harder alloys would be better for the 22's based only on what I've read over the years. Just looking for verification or repudiation of that from someone who's been down the road.

Hardness yes, but hardness can come from alloy constituents or by heat treating an alloy with a minimal amount of antimony with a trace amount of arsenic and less than 1/2% tin. The second one doesn't lead, but does give a lot better accuracy.

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 05 January 2017

TRK There doesn't have to be any guessing, look up your load pressure. Use the formulas in the Lee book if you need to,. You will not go wrong selecting an alloy hardness following Lee instructions but they are based on plain base cast bullets. Adding 10% pressure range to an alloy for gas checked bullets is a reasonable estimation I use. Gas checks extend the pressure range of an alloy and BHN15 gas checked bullets work well in an AR15 with minimum function level loads. If you go out of that load range you need a different alloy to work best. Any leading anywhere is the first sign you are wrong about stuff. Those rifles shoot great with cast when you do it well.

My AR shoots better with my cast reloads than it does with new South American NATO ammo.

Gary

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA President

John Alexander posted this 05 January 2017

I don't have an AR but have been shooting CBs in 22CF for over fifty years, a lot of them in 1:8 twists. If accuracy is the objective my experience has been that it is a lot easier to get it with the softer alloys air dropped COWW with nothing added usually works fine and if you aren't going for a lot of speed even 20:1 gives excellent results. If the objective is to empty magazines quickly at low cost I will defer to others. I too have read that 22s require harder alloys but I have found the opposite.

If nose fit is good I have found it very easy to get excellent accuracy with the NOE 22570RN and the NEI clone of it.

John

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

OU812 posted this 05 January 2017

Is full length resizing required for reliable feeding?

I have a Compass Lake Engineering upper (flat top) with heavy free floated Douglas 1-7.8 twist barrel. Gun looks like a factory compensated rifle and is designed for long range prone shooting (gun is heavy as hell). Rifle would require a different class to shoot in other than factory stock?

Trick open sight (smaller aperture) class would be very challenging... much like shooting cast in bolt guns.

Attached Files

Standard Member

onondaga posted this 05 January 2017

OU812 you said,

"Is full length resizing required for reliable feeding?"

Yes, and that is recommended by all major die makers. Additionally, I shoot my cast reloads in more than one rifle and FL resize is recommended for that also. Full length resize gives more feed leeway in semi-autos and fail to feed is much less with FL sizing than neck sized ammo in a semi-auto. It is pretty rare to be able to get high reliability feed in a semi-auto rifle with neck sized ammo.

Gary

Attached Files

Standard Member

TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 05 January 2017

Is full length resizing required for reliable feeding?

Maybe. If the case doesn't expand permanently - lower pressures usually used with cast it doesn't change size. It it expands a bit, then of course.

Attached Files

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 05 January 2017

David suggested that I chime in. I don't have, never had and never will have an AR or any gas gun. I've never had luck/accuracy with a heavy/long 22 CB. Never had a 22 bbl under 9” twist. I think I know a little about twist and 22 cf and bullet length.

Several experts have suggested that accuracy falls as twist # falls, slower twist = more accuracy.

A .225” bullet in a 7” twist barrel has a maximum Greenhill length of 1.085”, about an 80 grain bullet. 80 grain bullets must be single loaded in Ars?, and have little advantage under ~300 yards unless in a match where wind matters.

“GH” is the calculated minimum Greenhill twist rate for the bullet length

225415 bullet is .615” long; GH = 12.3”

Nosler 40 gr Varmageddon bullet is .665” long; GH = 11.4”

225646 bullet is .69” long; GH = 11”

Midway Dogtown 55 gr jacketed bullet is .7” long; GH = 10.8”

Striker 22-250 twist = 14”

M11 and M110 22-250 twist = 12”

Stevens 223 barrel rechambered to 22-250 = 9” twist

Iffland HV 223 barrel = 9” twist

All these guns/barrels will stabilize all the bullets shown, suggesting that the Greenhill formula is very conservative, that slower twists than Greenhill will stabilize bullets.

Impressions

With a pointy bullet, the point sorta doesn’t count as length, for Greenhill.

Some of these bullets tip in some guns/barrels sometimes, but not consistently.

Velocity = powder charge has a minor effect on stability.

As stability decreases, accuracy degrades, frequently without bullet tipping.

Maybe air density increases caused by temperature decreases produce stability decreases and accuracy degradation; I think I see accuracy fall in winter; same loads/bullets etc.

So, if I wanted a match 22 cf, I'd get a bolt gun and drive myself nuts trying to get it to shoot accurately.

If I wanted a match shooting AR with cast bullets, I'd work around 50-60 grains and maybe a 9” twist.

If I had an AR and wanted low cost reloads, I'd buy those 55 gr cannelured jacketed bullets @ ~ 8 cents.

joe b.