A Cadet conundrum

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  • Last Post 03 December 2020
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tony1960 posted this 01 December 2020

At the moment I am trying to clean the lead out of a 110yo leade which has been baked on since WW1. So far I've done pretty good but I am stumbling at the last post.

Now this is pretty good considering  what I started with.

I have tried all manner of brushing, soaking, scraping, everything from Ed's Red to Mercury and as any Aussie knows if there is a stubborn smear - out comes the Sweets 7.62, if that doesn't shift it then it's going to be difficult. My first question to the brains trust, has anyone tried the Acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide soak method? I know the dangers but if you could see the leade you would understand why I ask. Short bursts of soaking up to 2 mins max and plenty of scrubbing/oil after.

So that is the boring bit out of the way.

 

I have 3 moulds, one came with the gun, an old 125n CBE mould with a weird heel that tapers at the driving band making for a loose fit in the case. A 130 gn pointed and 120n round nose. The projectiles measure 125 -.706, 120 - .650 and the 130 - .723

as can be seen from the pic, they are of course different lengths which is what is causing concern for me, hence the conundrum.

My cases in the chamber fit up to the start of the leade so all of the projectile outside the case must fit into the leade as there is nowhere else to go.

Which under normal circumstances isn't an issue, except when you see the loaded cases.

With an overall length of 1.540, 1.480 and 1.640 respectively

both the 120  and 130 gn projectiles will not chamber fully (unless I "persuade" them) and have done with successful groups. Which is probably due to the nose diameter, the 125 has a narrower nose diam. allowing it to fit further into the leade.

but I really want a round that will drop into the chamber and allow me to close the action without having to use a mallet. I have not really tested the 125n projectiles yet as I felt that a wobbly projectile with no case tension is not going to perform that well. I have possibly overcome that issue by wrapping PTFE tape around the heel so there is now a tight fit in the case.

So here is the conundrum.

I know that the 130gn projectiles will shoot reasonable groups at present, and would probably shoot better groups if I didn't have to force them into the leade/barrel.

The 120gn projectiles are still an unknown as they are yet to be tested, but will still need forcing. As are the 125gn but without the forcing.

I haven't trimmed a case in over 40 years and don't want to start now if I can help it. I only have 100 cases but the daunting task of trimming them is making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. That and I would have to find my case trimmer, if I could find a 32 S&W trim die I could probably make it work but RCBS stopped making them some time back.

So gentlemen, thoughts and considerations.

 

Tony

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RicinYakima posted this 01 December 2020

1: I believe those are pits you are looking at not leading. If you used mercury, that is not lead. Swab the area with bullet lube and try to fill the pits before shooting.

2: I have the 130 CBE mould, and when cast of 30/1 or softer fits pretty well.

3. Pick your bullet, alloy and then trim the cases to just allow the cartridge to slide into the chamber.

4: Look for another powder, like Unique.

HTH

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beagle6 posted this 01 December 2020

Tony

When you used Mercury did you get all the oil out of the barrel using Acetone or similar? FWIW.

beagle6

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 December 2020

..i would reconsider your thought that you need good case tension on the bullet, at least for a single shot

in my 40 years of dithering with my project to make an amazingly accurate heeled bullet rifle ... the heel-neck-fit issue has not quite been settled ... but for the last several years i am thinking the most consistent neck clamp is none at all. ... that will keep me from having to set up a piezo-electric test rig for bullet pull ... and just go on setting accuracy world record after world record ..,, 

...BESIDES ... all my cba heros that shoot 1/2 inch groups  just seat about 0.050 of their conventional bullet's base in the case ... which is pretty much none at all ...

and my exquisite 22rf match ammo has bullets that easily finger-twirl  in the case ... close to least possible neck grip ...

just some thoughts ...   mostly hypothetical ...

ken

oh, i doubt that rough throat will be terminal .. guessing it will fill in with lead after a few shots ... " fouling shots " ....  our 1/3 moa 22rf match chambers all lead just in the leade ... heck, maybe it is the big secret ... 

and for cleaning the barrel, i just use 4x steel wool on an oily brush ...  on-lookers scream and faint, but works for me for 60 years of long-life barrels... and barrels don't need to be cleaned to chemically pure steel ...

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beltfed posted this 01 December 2020

Those so called pits in the first picture look more like "nodules of something" like perhaps rust rising from the surface.

I agree with Ken's thought to use 4X steel wool/oil on that leade/throat area

beltfed/arnie

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JeffinNZ posted this 01 December 2020

A few ideas.

1) Have you tried brass scouring pad material to remove any lead?  Works great with a couple of swipes.

2) Shorten the cases to allow the bullets to seat in the leade correctly.

3) Make the heel of the bullets match the I.D. of a fired case.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Squid Boy posted this 01 December 2020

Tony, I am thinking that there are two case lengths for the Cadet. I have seen 1.120" and 1.080" both listed for this case. I also shoot a CBE 130 grain RN that is .686" long x .322" diameter at the bands. The heal is .309" in diameter x .180" long. this produces a tight finger push fit in the case. The cases are 1.072" loaded ammo is 1.578" and just fits the chamber lead with no room to spare. These are cast 20:1 and use home made lube. Best to date is 5/8" five shot group @ 50 yards using Hodgdon Lil'Gun. I have a feeling you are going to have to trim your cases a little anyway. The bore looks like clean pitted metal to me and the highlight is just light from the scope. I confuse that with lead sometimes. Good luck, Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

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tony1960 posted this 01 December 2020

Thanks for all the input guys, most helpful. I really would like to believe that it is pitting but it looks nothing like the barrel, which IS pitted, the profile of the shading is all wrong (in my mind). And beltfed I recon you are dead right, maybe rust and not necessarily lead but definitely something I don't need in there. 

Especially if you look at the before and after shot of the barrel

Yes, I will admit that it is difficult to determine whether it is deposit or pit. But when you also see the barrel in its length it casts a different picture. This was midway through the cleaning process.

What I haven't mentioned is the process I took to get to this stage.

First of all I used a stainless tornado brush to take all of the surface crud etc off, (rust and lead), liberal amounts of Ed's Red drizzled through the barrel to keep everything lubricated.

After a day of doing this I then filled the brush up with JB's bore paste and spent the next day scrubbing also, mixing between short strokes and long so I don't end up with a barrel with loose spots the full length. Every 30 or so strokes I would clean the barrel with E.R. and start again, boy a lot of stuff came out early.

Then I used a bronze brush, once again with lashings of Ed's, full length strokes. When I had completely knackered the brush I wrapped bronze wool around it, filled it with JB's and started again. This was a tight fit in the barrel starting from the breech end, working on the leade I have managed to reduce the amount of "unknown" in there.

I have cleansed and filled with Mercury again and will leave it for today.

I have taken the advice from you gentlemen and have a 40:1 mixture which these projectiles are now cast from. As for powder, if I want to order Unique and wait an indefinite length of time but AP70 is it's ADI equivalent. I am trying TB only because I can, no other reason. The projectiles I am using do match the brass, except for the PTFE 125gn. I spoke to Dave at CBE when I first found the heel tapered on it, he was extremely helpful but couldn't do anything for it as he removed that cherry from his stock over 7 years ago when he took over. It's not a hard fix and if I had access to a lathe I would give it a go myself, because the heel tapers from the proj base to a smaller diam at the first band it is just a case of straightening it up.

So I may be resigned to reducing the case length to suit the longer projectile, knowing that the accuracy on the others shouldn't be affected. Has anyone used the Lee 32/20 trim die? would it get far enough down the trim the 310? I'm figuring not. And the 32 S&W die is unobtainable.

Squid boy, have you tried any Alliant 410 in your cadet? Seems like it could be an alternative. My issue is being able to get the powder, anything that has to come in from OS has the usual 6-8 month waiting list and is then snapped up fast, ADI on the other hand is homegrown, going though a patch at present as they are re-jigging and re-blending powder. a lot of the Hogdon powder is ADI so you will find the same issue soon.

 

Well guys, that's food for thought.

 

cheers

 

T.

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 December 2020

just a ( nother ) thought ... the JB compound is an extremely fine grade of almost-not an abrasive.  it mostly gives your patch or brush just a little better grip on the gunk in the barrel.

i once shot several thousand of 22rf bullets dipped in greasy JB down a match barrel just to see if an already excellent barrel got better ...  it didn't wear the leade any at all, as determined with a borescope looking at known marks in the leade .... and no, the barrel shot the same after all those hopefully-miracle shots.   i suspect JB  would just polish those lumps in your barrel ... whatever they might be.

if it were my barrel, i would apply some 1200 grit clover abrasive on your copper wool and give it 20 strokes, observing before and after.  i would guess it would take a thousand+ passes before anything other than even smoother would happen to your rifling.  plus, any microscopic grooves it could make are just finer rifling anyway ... heh ...

very interesting project you have there ...

ken

 

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Bud Hyett posted this 02 December 2020

I spent one late Saturday afternoon and evening some 35 years ago using J&B to smooth a Springfield 1903 barrel. The barrel was scoped by the gunsmith before installation and he pointed out it had slight (just visible) tooling marks on the tops of the lands. The barrel was even and smooth everywhere, but had these tooling marks.

Three hundred strokes, redoing the patch with fresh J&B every five strokes and new patch every five cycles. The shadows grew long and night fell. Setting up my study lamp,I could look at bore for inspection. After cleaning the bore with Ed's Red and then lighter fluid, the bore shone. 

Took the rifle the next Saturday morning to the gunsmith and he looked down it with the borescope. Then he handed it to me. All I did was to knock the edges off the tooling marks. J&B is a great cleaner, but it is not a lapping compound. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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JeffinNZ posted this 02 December 2020

Another good reason I don't own a bore scope.  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.  If you use a good soft alloy and LLA it will shoot fine.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Mike H posted this 02 December 2020

For a few cases to trim,a fine file is all you need,this would enable you to check if case length is important.

Re the powder to use,as an Australian I would be going for the local powders.There are some YouTube videos about 310 cadets by an Australian where he liked AP 90,it is not made anymore,the next slower powder is AP100,whether it would be better then AP 70 I couldn’t say,ADI shows loads with 2205 but it is said to be too slow.

I must confess that I do not own a cadet rifle,the closest was a 32/20,your efforts to get this rifle shooting well are very interesting.

Mike.

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barra posted this 02 December 2020

The Lee 32-20 die and shell holder will work for 310 cadet.

All I did was chuck the screw in arbor? In a drill chuck and used a file to make the length shorter.

leave the pin on it that goes through the primer hole that acts as the length stop.

This also makes a pivot point and acts like a bearing otherwise the case will rub on the shaft and the inside of the neck will get score marks.

For the taper heeled bullet.

‘you could always breach seat with a plugged case and then load a primed case behind it.

 I have gotten my best accuracy that way.

My barrels look shiny and perfect if I hold them up to strong light and apply a generous amount of Ed’s red in the bore first.

I can’t see much for a while after .....but they do shine brightly..

 

 

 

 

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Squid Boy posted this 02 December 2020

Tony, I have not tried Alliant 4100 but I have used Hodgdon 'Lil Gun, Viht 3N37, Alliant Blue Dot and Vectan A0 with good accuracy. I sent a PM. Thanks, Squid

"Squid Pro Quo"

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tony1960 posted this 03 December 2020

Well guys, I think I have come to the end of my quest. I spent today with another tornado brush but a larger calibre. One good thing coming out of it, I have great biceps/triceps now, well on one side anyhowlaughing

If you care to scroll up to the first picture I posted, now almost two weeks on I can say I think that it will not  get much better than this shot from today.

but I am not disheartened as although it won't come up as well as I thought, I don't believe it ever will.

Tried a different angle today after I put the brush down and a couple (lots) of patches through the barrel. You just have to love the legacy of Mercuric primers.

 

I think I can safely say that what I have is going to have to suffice.

On the bright side, the long 130gn projectiles do fit, not a drop in fit, but they do. The 120's I believe a too blunt  adius on the nose and is impeded by the leade. If I decide to shorten any cases then it would be to test these.

Out of all of this, I learned something, had some friends give some great advice, maybe even imparted some knowledge.

Now just have to get to the range and see if my efforts were not in vain..cheers

 

Tony

 

PS: Barra, it really is a sewer pipe.

PPS: George, my 130 grainers mike out at 1.640 OAL.

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