Pillar Bedding

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  • Last Post 27 July 2013
R. Dupraz posted this 22 July 2013

I have another stocking project in mind, maybe. And am considering using pillars to bed the action in a wood stock.

While I have stocked rifles since the mid 60's using both semi inletted and blanks, I have never bedded the actions with pillars, only just in the wood or with Acra Glass.

I have just finished reading an article on the net by Kelly McMillan that pretty much describes the process that they use. And writes that the primary advantage of using pillars is to eliminate any compression of the stock near the action screws over time. His piece is aimed at the composite stock mostly. And writes that, given good glass bedding of the action, there may be no advantage to using pillars. I intend to use a walnut stock.

So, my questions are ---

Do any of you have any personal experience with pillar bedding? Or had this done? have you noticed any measureable improvement in grouping? Is it worthwhile or no in your opinion? worth the extra effort or not as far as accuracy goes?

Don't need or want any long winded regurgitated tribe based the gun rags or the net. I can find all that myself.

In the words of Sgt. Joe Friday--

"Just the facts Ma'm, Just the facts

Thanks RD

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RicinYakima posted this 22 July 2013

Yes, I have done that in walnut wood blanks.

Yes, I have done that in laminated birch blanks.

No, I have never been able to measure any reduced group size over the 1903 Springfield partial pillar bedding.

However, it will allow you to accurately align and center a barreled receiver in a poorly made semi-inletted stock. It also allows you to repair a 22 stock that is only held with one screw.

That is all that I can state as facts.

Ric

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 July 2013

Thanks Ric:

So, in your opinion, think it's worth the extra effort or no?

RD

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 July 2013

barrels, bedding, and bullets.   gotta optimize all three.

BEDDING:   two main considerations 1) action screws can compress the stock, and stress ( and strain ) the metal parts in various degrees from shot to shot.  think of it as shooting a different rifle every shot. pillar bedding is an easy and relatively simple way to achieve constant ( repeatable ) stress from the action screws.

2)  recoil movement.  pillar bedding does not , and should not, provide this.  study your rifle and devise a scheme to provide rigid recoil structure bedding AFTER the pillar bedding is complete.

is pillar bedding worth the effort ?   yes.   if only 19 out of 20 rifles achieve better repeatability from shot to shot ... heck, take that chance !

i havent read that article, but after a few initial messy installations, i have developed a much simplified method   ... probably one of those things that everyone else knew but didn't tell me ... ( g ) . 

i now consider it a waste of powder to shoot a rifle that has not been pillar and recoil bedded.

doit toit   ken

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 July 2013

Thanks for the reply Ken, Just the kind of stuff that I was looking for. Would be interested in your method as I am trying to get my mind around the sequence of the steps without screwing things up. Pretty much get only one chance when messing with this business.

Also, the author of this article notes that the pillars prevent compression only and not shear, so that has to be taken care of separately. Consistant with your #'s 1 & 2.

RD

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RicinYakima posted this 23 July 2013

RD,

You want an opinion?

OK here it is: If your barrel has “V” threads and you want to experiment with “free floating” the barrel, I would consider pillar bedding. If you can standardize the torque on the action screws threads, you will have some type of consistency on barrel thread vibrations. If you are working with a square thread barrel (1903 Springfield, Krag, Newton, etc.) with the required barrel pressure bedding, it would be a waste of effort compared to normal glass bedding for seating and recoil control.

Consider finding a copy of Harold R. Vaughn, PhD, ME, book Rifle Accuracy Facts published by the defunct Precision Shooting, Inc. in 1998.

Best wishes, Ric

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 23 July 2013

Ken:

Tried to reply to your PM but keep getting an error message. I have all three and the rifle is a 1903 springfield.

RD

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R. Dupraz posted this 23 July 2013

Ric:

The rifle is a Springfield “03” that I have had for many, many yrs. It was blued and restocked when I got it back then. Nice shape and a good shooter with jacketed so thought that I would restock it and see what it would do as a cast gun.

I'll keep an eye out for that book,

Thanks RD

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CB posted this 23 July 2013

R. Dupraz wrote: Ric:

The rifle is a Springfield “03” that I have had for many, many yrs. It was blued and restocked when I got it back then. Nice shape and a good shooter with jacketed so thought that I would restock it and see what it would do as a cast gun.

I'll keep an eye out for that book,

Thanks RD

RD, with my experiences with many 03 Springfields over the years, both sporters and mil spec., the rifle does not conform to Benchrest type bedding with pillars. 1. The front action screw design does not allow a pillar because of the trigger/magazine guard. Even if used in custom wood without the military guard, use loose pressure needed for the recoil lug area. 2. The rear action screw or tang can be used with a pillar, as shooters for years have used the issue steel sleeve in that way. I find the pillar does not improve accuracy, but I use it there. 3. Because of the 03 design, I find you need a 3-point bedding system. Bedding at the rear screw, the lug area, and bedding under the chamber area. The 3rd bedding point under the barrel at the chamber area is needed to support the action. I have a heavy BR barrel on a custom stock, which when floated binds the action where the bolt will not func tion. 4. I find the 03 beds nicley with a coat of Accuglass throughout the action while the barrel is supported. The issue trigger guard also needs bedded. I find no pressure points needed except a lot of shooters like the magical 7lbs. of barrel pressure at the end of the wood, issue stock or custom wood, this with the issue light barrel.

I have pillar bedded 22lr rifles along with a few high-power rifles but have noticed very little improvement if any. I bought an inch-pound torque wrench to adjust action screws and still find no improvement. My opinion as I have not documented my accounts........Dan

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RicinYakima posted this 23 July 2013

RD,

As usual, I agree with Dan Willems about 95%.

Back about 1992, before I got busted up in an arson fire and had to quit shooting prone, I built a 1000 yard prone Springfield, single shot with Douglas 26 inch XX, 1 1/4” diameter barrel. The front screw was pillar bedded with .060” clearance and the rear screw was bedded with a sleeve as I didn't have a mill at the time and could not figure out how to get the 4 degree angle set up. As you know, the rear screw is not vertical with the action. The only bottom metal was a Remington ADL trigger guard bow.

The action had a generous rear tang pad, the length of the action from center line of front screw back to magazine cut out and Forward under the chamber exactly the same length (!), and shot best with about 3 pounds up pressure at the fore end tip. I tried to make the action “just sit there” with no stresses or strains. The rifle shot the then new Sierra Palma 155 grain bullet very well. I sold the rifle before I discovered benchrest shooting.

I think pillar bedding is a tool that everyone should have in their toolbox, but not the first one I pull out when stocking.

Ric

 

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CB posted this 23 July 2013

Ric, it's always been said that rifles enjoy riding sand bags (in whatever form) when shooting off a rest, which is true. I also believe metal actions enjoy being bedded in wood (probably a vibration dampening thing) to improve accuracy, rather than resting on metal to metal, even pillar metal.........

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RicinYakima posted this 23 July 2013

Dan,

If I read the directions correctly, even over the top of the pillars, you have a few (several) thousandths of an inch epoxy bedding material.

Ric

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CB posted this 23 July 2013

My Savage 12 and Remington 700 Varminters do not. Ya, I find pillars are better if a .030” gap or so is left at the action some compression of the action into the bedding, thus the pillar allowing a solid dead stop for the screw and trigger guard.

Look at pillar kits, some have contours to match action bottoms. I've seen an article before where a certain gunsmith contours a 1” -1 1/4” aluminum billet for the action, then turns the bottom down to screw diameter to hide the large diameter pillar behind the wood stock.

Different ideas makes money when yer in the business.......

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 July 2013

RD  : yep my pm doesnt work because my name has a comma in it, and this system wont let me change that (  g  )

regarding the springfield, i certainly give great weight to the experiences of RIC  and DAN .... especially since i have never worked on a springfield !    i have shot some and had the impression that they were pretty stiff actions, and would support a floating barrel.   a pretty good gunsmith, art fruend of st. louis always liked to fit barrel threads to an almost welded-tight fit ... maybe '03 threads should be devcon-ed together ??

interesting project ... hey it cant be worse than those dang 77hornet rugers!

give me a call if you get a minute.  wish i had an '03 to look at ! 

i have had good luck pillar bedding 22 rf  squirrel rifles .... maybe because by the time they get to me the stock is oil rotted or water warped.  also i try to install a rear action screw somewhere; belt and suspenders ...

ken

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John Alexander posted this 24 July 2013

Yup. I think there is some science, some art, and maybe some voodoo in bedding a rifle. This isn't contributing to how to bed an O3 but fifty years ago I made a stock for a 222 Sako L 46 with the skinny barrel. I bedded it in straight grained wood as carefully as I could with endless scraping of the spots where the inletting indicator showed things were touching. This included the barrel channel because I wanted to minimize the gap between wood and metal. No “glass” bedding material or pillars were involved.

Everybody “knew” even in those dark ages that there was only two good ways to bed the barrel, either with some up pressure near the tip of the forend or free floating. Mine was bedded solidly in the wood from tip to receiver ring with the idea of shooting it and then relieving the wood except the tip. Shooting it some more and so on. I fully expected to have it free floated when done.

The problem with my plan was that skinny barreled thing shot better than any rifle I had owned and better than a lot of varmint weight rifles as it was with the barrel hunkered down into the barrel channel as close as my patience could make it. On the principle of “If it ain't broke -------, I left well enough alone. Now fifty years later the throat is showing signs of erosion but the rifle will still average easily under an inch for several five shot groups at 100 yards with good jacketed bullets and about 1.5 inches with the right load for the Lyman 225415. It shoots that way summer or winter and the zero has never noticeably moved around as all the gurus predicted. Maybe Dan is right that gunmetal enjoys being bedded in wood.

John

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R. Dupraz posted this 27 July 2013

First, thanks to you all for taking the time to respond with the kind of info that makes this forum unique. Good stuff. Exactly what I wanted.

Got back from visiting the Grand-daughters a couple of days ago, and have been in the recovery mode. Almost ready to do it again, almost.

Any way, A Semi-finished, inletted thumbhole sporter stock is on the way from Great American Gunstocks. I wanted walnut but the owner gave me a deal on a mertle wood thunmbhole stock that a guy wouldn't pay him for. Something a little different. So, should be interesting. More than likely this will become a winter project as the season is fast winding down already but maybe I will at least get some range time yet with the rifle before the snow flies. Pretty challenging when trying to finish wood in the summer humidity out here anyway.

Back to the pillars. The K-98 Mauser 7.62mm that I have been shooting in the military matches for several yrs. now, started acting up late last summer. While trying to find the problem, I discovered that the wood around the action screws was crushed. When they were loosened, the trigger guard/floor plate would rock up and down. And, there was no bushing for the tang screw, which there should have been in a Mauser. So I turned a couple of bushings, one for the front of the action and one for the tang, then epoxied them in. After a little scrapeing,the rifle was back to normal. Pillars, sort of.

John:

Think it was in the late 60's, I ordered a Sako Vixen .222 varminter. As I recall the retail was $230.00. That little gem was the most accurate rifle that I have ever had. It was a prairie dog eliminator supreme. It doesn't make one holers anymore cause I think the throat is pretty much gone.

Ken:

One of these days, I'll give you a ring.

RD

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