Linotype vs. Wheel weights

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  • Last Post 07 July 2013
billglaze posted this 21 June 2013

I have been curious for some time now, about the use of lino for cast bullets. Looking at the results of the cast bullet matches, it seems that all the folks seem to use lino. At first I considered that the extra hardness, (about 22 on the brinell scale) was the reason. But, inasmuch as I can constantly achieve a brinell of 32 by tempering the wheel weights, (I know that most others can do this too)there must be more to it than this--the hardness situation seems to be down the list with the contestants. I've discovered a lot of things about cast bullets; one of the interesting things is that, of a 2 cavity mould, in some cases, one cavity will for some reason, shoot better groups than the other. (At least, that's what I have found with some moulds.) Anyway, I'm just looking for enlightenment here, and opinions are always welcome.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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delmarskid1 posted this 22 June 2013

It's like comparing butter to margarine. Lino casts such a nice uniform bullet without extra effort. I cast and shoot wheel weight mixed with lino when I can for the fun stuff. I made up from scratch my own lino for the picky bench rest shooting.

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onondaga posted this 22 June 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5098>billglaze

I'm not a Linotype bullet fan and shoot fine with Lyman #2 alloy, but I can address your question from a  metallurgical aspect. Hardened WheelWeight gets harder due to the heat/quenching drawing the Antimony to the surface so the Antimony re-organizes in a crystalline pattern on and near the surface . The physical properties of a hardened WheelWeight alloy relative to ballistic performance versus the physical properties of Linotype relative to ballistic performance are profoundly different in the area of ductility. Even if you carefully hardened Wheelweight to exactly the same BHN as Linotype, they wouldn't shoot the same because the differences in ductility and ultimate tensile strength would be very significantly different.

Difference in friction/drag factor in the bore would also be different between WheelWeight hardened to BHN 22 and certified Linotype at BHN 22 because the alloys are different and they would not shoot the same. They might be close, but I wouldn't interchange them in a match or change  bullets for a match and expect equal results.

Gary

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apbluebass posted this 22 June 2013

which one shoots better... I must test and compare!

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John Alexander posted this 22 June 2013

Excellent question Bill. Gary has discussed one part of the issue and Delmarskid1 has discussed another aspect by pointing out that linotype produces beautiful, easy to cast bullets. I can comment only from my limited experience and observing other competitive shooters.

Most competitive shooters, at least those that show up at the nationals, shoot linotype. Most of these competitive shooters have carefully fitted bullets (often swaged to fit custom throats except in hunting rifle class where that is not within the rules.) Also a high percentage of match shooters shoot at fairly high pressure/velocity for cast bullets to reduce wind drift. Linotype is hard to beat for these conditions.

I never shoot linotype in competition because I can never get it to shoot as well at the lower pressure/velocity loads with bullets of less than perfect fit (which seems to always be the cast for 22 CB for reasons discussed in my Fouling Shot articles.) As a result I use alloys of uncertain parentage with a BHN of about 15 which seem to always shoot better than either linotype or HT wheelweights in the rifles I shoot in matches as well as most other calibers I am just trying to get decent accuracy out of. I think this is because with these relatively low pressures the more ductile alloy upsets more and provides a better seal for the less than perfectly fitted bullets.

My conclusion is that, just like bigger, harder is not always better.

John

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billglaze posted this 22 June 2013

Thanks to all for the informative replies. Onandaga, I knew you had a metallurgical background, (read lots of your informative postings) and this posting is no exception. I had no idea that wheel weights had ANY antimony in them at all; surprise! John, I've tried to contact you directly at the email address in the F.S., and only get the dreaded daemon message. I wanted to tell you that your statement in the newest F.S. about your article being too long--well, it sure wasn't too long for me! Possibly the Editor had a tough time finding enough space, but don't ever worry about being too wordy or uninteresting--please! And my last word: my limited experimenting so far, is that, (no surprise here) I can shoot the lino bullets with accuracy at a higher velocity than W-Wts. Now I have an idea as to why that's so. Even though I'm not looking for velocity per se, it's still an interesting informational path I'm treading. I'm continually shooting targets at a known distance, (no hunting) so group size is paramount. If anything interesting presents itself, I'll let the group know. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 22 June 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5098>billglaze

Antimony  and/or  Arsenic are commonly found in small percentages in WheelWeight alloys. If there were neither at all, I mean really 0% of either of them in a bullet alloy, you could accomplish no meaningful results from heat treatment hardening a all. They are required for the process to work. There is other elemental metals that will also accomplish this in bullet alloys but they are very impractical to come by and difficult to alloy.

I personally maintain and have posted my belief that the harder a lead bullet alloy is, the more critical the fit becomes to achieve accuracy. I personally believe bore condition and bore finish are critical too and have posted my simple bore polishing method for accuracy on this forum.

The only real surprise I've gotten with cast bullet accuracy in decades is the effect of a polished Chrome lined bore and I love to brag about it. My Remington Spartan rifle imported from Baikal of Russia has a Chrome lined bore. It had a horrible trigger that I worked down and I polished slick the Chrome lined bore too. The inexpensive single shot break open rifle was then  remarkably easy to get shooting very well with #2 alloy bullets in the odd and generally inaccurate 7.62X39mm cartridge..

Gary

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billglaze posted this 22 June 2013

O.K., Gary, as I refer back to your previous postings, I seem to recall you stating that at least some arsenic (and antimony) must be present in the mix to permit hardening. I may have understood poorly this recent posting, but I got the (perhaps erroneous) idea that the antimony actually moves to the surface of the bullet. Is that correct? Because, it makes it sound like the antimony forms almost a thin plating over the bullet surface. (Or am I using a wrong analogy here?) If so, when I use my LBT tester, am I getting just a surface reading, or am I actually displacing enough metal that the radius of the compression screw allows a correct reading? Or is my reading of ~32 erroneous, and I'm actually reading something else, other than the actual bullet hardness near the surface? Lots going on here; more than I figured on, but I'm learning things. Thanks.

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 22 June 2013

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5098>billglaze You understood correctly, Antimony and/or arsenic must be present for heat treating lead alloy bullets. Antimony and Arsenic move toward the surface and re organize the crystalline surface of bullets from heat treating.  The hardening area thickness depends on 3 factors:

1) quantity of antimony and or Arsenic in the alloy.

2) Temperature of the heat soak.

3) Temperature of the quench cooling.

Your hardness test kit is measuring the only area relative to bullets, the surface area that bears on the bore. Don't worry how deep your hardening is or how to measure how deep it is. You would need Metallurgical lab grade cut/polished samples and an electron microscope to accurately measure hardness depth from heat treating of bullets. I don't have one anymore, I left it at the lab when I retired. It wasn't mine anyway and it took 2 young geeky nerds to run  it a white room.

What this adds up to for me Bill is this: I don't heat treat any bullets anymore. I mix my alloy to the hardness I desire achieved by air cooling after casting. Air cooling the right alloy  is much more consistent than any method of heat treating I have ever used or observed.

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 23 June 2013

I would love to see the photomicrographs of the molecular dispersion variations of arsenic and antimony. (Just curious as to how much of a concentration there is at the surface.)

There is one industry near here that does a hardening quench using liquid nitrogen (dispersed in sawdust) to get a maximum hardness. It WORKS!

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onondaga posted this 23 June 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=97>TRK It would look something like this in cross section, but this is not at the molecular level and only x500:

http://www.catator.se/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/SEM.jpg>http://www.catator.se/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/SEM.jpg

Gary

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billglaze posted this 23 June 2013

Highly interesting. A definite, if irregular, line of demarcation that indicates two metals with entirely different character. Following on: I last week shot two five shot groups in my Palma rifle .30-'06 that measured just barely over an inch at 100 yards. Shot one after the other, in 10 minutes or less. Both with lino, out of what I believe to be the better shooting cavity. (More proof needed; I'm working on it.) Next, I'm loading the same load, but, as soon as I can cast up some more Lyman 311299 bullets, I intend to see if: 1)these groups repeat. 2)if I can get the same or nearly the same, out of both cavities, and, 3)check out lino vs. W-Wts. Whole lotta stuff going on here at the same time, but I think it'll be worth the effort. It'll take a whole lot of loading, and a bunch of shooting. Hey, it's a nasty, rotten, lousy job, but somebody has to do it.

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 23 June 2013

Bill

This is nanoflake of zinc and antimony:

http://www.nano.org.uk/news/images/metallic-alloys-enhance-efficiency-and-safety-of-rechargeable-batteries.jpg

A crystalline surface pattern of  Antimony would look similar to this:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=electron+microscope+antimony+&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=electron+microscope+antimony+&sc=0-26&sp=-1&sk=&id=D36A39AF286C8444179128F3B2267D3951A8E209&selectedIndex=15#view=detail&id=D36A39AF286C8444179128F3B2267D3951A8E209&selectedIndex=0>http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=electron+microscope+antimony+&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=electron+microscope+antimony+&sc=0-26&sp=-1&sk=&id=D36A39AF286C8444179128F3B2267D3951A8E209&selectedIndex=15#view=detail&id=D36A39AF286C8444179128F3B2267D3951A8E209&selectedIndex=0

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 23 June 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=97>TRK It would look something like this in cross section, but this is not at the molecular level and only x500:

http://www.catator.se/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/SEM.jpg>http://www.catator.se/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/SEM.jpg

Gary

THANKS! Coool. Which is which, how far from the edge/surface?

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onondaga posted this 23 June 2013

The link you copied is cross section at 500X so  imagine a reduction of 500x for 1:1.  Not very visual but better than a punt.

Perhaps you get a better idea of why I prefer specific alloys rather than heat treating.

Gary

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JeffinNZ posted this 24 June 2013

I biggest quesiton I have is where do you get lino these days? Or are the competition boys shooting virgin metal produced to requirements?

Cheers from New Zealand

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 24 June 2013

Does that boundary occur 1/10” or 1/1000” from the surface?

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onondaga posted this 24 June 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=97>TRK .001"+

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onondaga posted this 24 June 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=80>JeffinNZ:

I buy it locally for $1.47/lb.

RotoMetals is popular for certified new alloy:

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/linotypealloy.htm>http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/linotypealloy.htm

Used lino scrap from my supplier is mixed letter blocks strips and spacers generally averaging BHN 27-30 for me and the ink on it is free. He will take phone orders and ships cheap Priority Mail with a 10 pound minimum. He has lots of other lead  bargains too, just ask:

Marty Gartz 144 Kentucky Street Buffalo, NY 14204 phone: 716-698-5586

this is what I get from Marty http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/Lino.jpg.html>

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CB posted this 24 June 2013

JeffinNZ wrote: I biggest quesiton I have is where do you get lino these days? Or are the competition boys shooting virgin metal produced to requirements?

Hi Jeff. I think all the local Wind Hill competitors using lino are using a supply gathered from a local printer back in the early 80s. I don't remember how much Ed Doonan said we got from the printer, but I think it was 6 - 7,000 pounds. We paid $.30 a pound back then. Here in the US there is still scrap yards that will watch for lino to sell you if you keep an ongoing contact with them or buy it on EBay.

I USE LINOTYPE because it is easy, no worrys about alloy for the most part. There are plenty of other problems to focus on shooting in competition, instead of smelting down smelly wheel weights and oven harden CBs..............Dan

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JeffinNZ posted this 25 June 2013

HOW MUCH!

I have maybe 40lb set aside. Will likely use it for .225 bullets.

Cheers from New Zealand

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