45-70 Trapdoor Excursion

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  • Last Post 20 December 2013
tlkeizer posted this 06 April 2013

Greetings,

     Some of the readers will remember reading about some of my experiences with the trapdoors I inherited under the molds part of the forum with my Lee 405 Hollow Base Mold problems.  I am going to continue my experiences with the trapdoors under a new heading as the mold problem has been taken care of.  A big Thank You to Lee Molds for that experience.

     For new readers, I inherited a couple trapdoor Model 1873 Springfield Trapdoor 45-70's from my grandfather a number of years ago.  I had shot one a few times 25 years ago or so, and the other not until this past winter.  No serious shooting with the rifle a while back, just to see if it shot where pointed, and it did (mostly).  One had been re-blued, stock re-finished, then cut in half, then put back together with a couple nails for tenons.  Whether that was done by my grandfather or not I do not know, and will never know in this world.  That is referred to as the red trapdoor, and as the bore was not really good I have sent the rifle and receiver to Pennsylvania to have it lined with a new sleeve as the rifle is not a collectors piece at this point.  I also had the stock re-glued.  The second rifle, referred to as the original rifle, is all original, very good shape, and has a good bore.  That one I am currently on a quest to develop a consistant good load for hunting and “beer matches", though for me nowadays it is more a “diet coke match".  Sights on both are original, but on the original rifle there is windage adjustment, on the red rifle windage is either Kentucky or get out a drift pin for the front or rear sight.

     For loads I have used bullets from 525 grain, which gave a grouping of typing paper at 50 yards, down through 500 (Lyman 457125), 485, 435, 420, Lee 405 Hollow Base, and around 350.  The best groupings to date have been with the Lyman 500 grain bullet and the Lee 405 grain Hollow Base bullet.  Both have given  basically 1 1/2 inch groups.  I have tried a couple loads with modern powder, but elected to stay with black powder; nothing against modern powders, but these were designed for black powder so I will stay with that by choice.

     My loads have been from 62 grains FFG down to 55 grains FG.  Since I have had trouble getting black powder, I have settled on Hodgdon FG black powder.  I have used FFG, but as I have yet to see a difference in performance for my rifles and loads, I am using FG now (easier to get).  My two best loads so far use either the Lyman listed, or the Lee listed, 55 grains FG, CCI 200 primer, and either WW or R-P cases.  I have used Hornady cases, but they are significantly shorter, I have only a few, and they gave the worst groups early.  I have yet to see a difference between the WW and R-P case performance, so use both but only one type per shooting session to reduce one more variable.

     The lube I use is SPG, and so far have applied it by hand.  I just got a lubrisizer through Ebay, and need to get it set up.

     My last 50 yard groups were both about one and a half inches, then last Wednesday I tried shooting at a hundred yards.  That shooting is best described as abysmal.  When I cleaned the rifle I noticed that the cleaning rod seemed to go easier in the receiver half of the barrel.  But, after some soaked patches and good application of a new brush the extra resistnce was eliminated.  I have shot both non-brushed bore and brushed bore, and will need to compare groups again in the near future; in the past the non-brushing seemed to group better.  SPG is supposed to not need brushing, I will continue to see what works best for me and the original rifle.  I am interested in hearing if anyone else has experienced the same phenomena (or however the word is spelled).

     Enough ramblings for now.  IF you want more backround, find the track on the Lee 405 hollow base mold under the molds listing in the forum.  It will also show the last two good groups.  Enjoy your shooting.:fire

TK

 

 

    

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6pt-sika posted this 06 April 2013

I've got an 1884 Trapdoor . Had it for about 40 years but never got around to shooting it until maybe 8 years ago !

 

Mine is in extrememly good shape other then the fact that someone I think tried to make it into an artillary model . Still has stock to the end of the barrel etc and it may be original but I doubt it . Anyway the lock is still CC and the blueing is about 90% .

 

About 8 years ago I shot it some with the Lyman 388 grain RN PB bullet and a Trapdoor charge from the Lyman manual of SR4759 and it didn't do bad at 50 yards . Back then I was sizing for the 45-70 with a .459” die . Since that time I stepped up to a .461” die . Think perhaps this summer I may try it again with the Lyman 388 , the Gould 330 HP and perhaps the Ranch Dog 460-350GC . More then likely I'll use SR4759 from the Lyman book but I moght also try some 5744 .

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Ed Harris posted this 06 April 2013

When I shot an 1884 trapdoor for 200 meter ram bashing the best load I had was a 370-grain .462 diameter Old West mold shaped like the original carbine bullet, but without the hollow base, with 11 grains of 700-X, cast 1:30 tin/lead, pan lubed witb 1 part ATF 2 parts Gulf canning wax and 1 part Crisco. Typical groups were 4-5” at 200 meters. Load was subsonic.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tlkeizer posted this 07 April 2013

Ed,

I can only hope to get close to those groups with my black powder, nice shooting.

TK

 

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tlkeizer posted this 11 April 2013

Greetings,

     Well, after 2 days of snow and blowing wind, today wasn't too bad, so went out to the range.  I loaded 10 rounds to try 5 and 50 yards and 5 at 100 yards so see if the extra scrubbing helped.  In a nutshell, it did.  As most of my shooting has been without bore brushing between shots using SPG lubricant, I did not brush between shots today to remain consistant with my load development so far.  To insure the barrel did not favor one range or the other by fowling, I shot each range in alternating shots.  The 50 yard group was around 2 inches, the 100 yard group was 2inches vertical and 5 or so inches lateral; I was satisfied with this considering the day. 

     This to me did show that the barrel was fowling a bit more than I had thought, and I think the extra resistance felt in the cleaning was due to a new bore brush which made the fowling manifest itself.  I could be wrong, but that's my story and.........  Any way, the groups were satisfactory for me today.  Even at 100 yards the shots would all have been in the chest cavity, so now it is on to fine tuning the load.

     I have more lube on order, the lubrisizer through ebay, and the next step will be to size and lube the bullets by press rather than by hand.  That should help get a little more consistancy.  The lubrisizer will have to be cleaned and the old lube removed, so I will get a large container to boil out the old lube.  A friend of mine here has done that a couple times, so he will help me with the cleaning.  Gotta go clean barrel and brass,  TK

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tlkeizer posted this 09 July 2013

Greetings,

Thought an update on shootind was in order.  Lubrisizer is in, using .459 sizer, may try a larger one if I can get one reasonable. Have Lyman 500 grain mold, casts by lead about 527 as I use pretty soft lead.  I have not shot the original barrel for a while, and may try that tomorrow.  I have gotten the barrel back from Mr. Hoyt with a new liner, and the first 5 shots went extremely well, 1 inch (more or less) group at 50 yards with shots 2,3,4 & 5.  Shot 1 was slightly higher than the rest, but only another 3/4 inch or so.   :dude:  Thank you Mr. Hoyt.

 

I have been working on a hunting load for both rifles, and the new one likes the Lyman 500 grain bullet with 55 grains FG best, just like the other rifle.  I have shot both 55 grain and 60 grain loads, and the 60 grain load opened up not quite half an inch, not enough to change aiming points hunting, so I will do my homework with the 55 grain loads to save just a little bit of powder for a couple more shots per can.  I think the group is probably as good as I will get as I don't think my eyes will give me a better group, but then a couple groups measuring 1.35 and 1.40 at a hundred yards seem pretty reasonable to me.  Now to see what happens out to 200 yards.  The last time I was out and had one bullet left to try at 200 yards hit the dirt about 50 feet short of the target.  I think I may have to raise the sights a bit more.

I did have one rather interesting thing happen yesterday while loading.  I have a couple old boxes of primers, so thought I would use them (CCI 250).  I loaded 20 R-P cases with seating the bullet then crimping, then loaded 15 in W-W cases with seating and crimping in one step to see the difference if any.  Imagine my surprise when I pulled the 6th load out of the reloader, and the bullet came out about half way; I watched it rise like bisquits in a warmer.  Obviously the older primers give a bit more of an air seal than new primers, and the lube keeps the air from coming out the top.  What I wound up doing was taking all 5 loads that rose and putting them back in the seating die with the load all the way in the die for a few hours, that kept the bullets in the case.  I will report on how that group of 5 do compared to the other groups of 5.

Enjoy the summer shooting.

 

TK

 

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tlkeizer posted this 09 July 2013

Greetings,

First shot was inch and a half higher, not 3/4.  Noticed that on my posting.  Must have been the pristeen barrel.

TK

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docbob posted this 10 July 2013

TK, That looks like the rifle/load will certainly shoot! Glad You had a good shooting experience with the old Trapdoor. I have a couple of them and enjoy them a lot.

DocBob

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tlkeizer posted this 11 July 2013

Greetings,

Went out to shoot today, and for grins and giggles shot a 10-shot group at 50 yards.  Shot some at 100 yards, but that needs a bit of work yet; I think I need to deliniate my target better.  Anyway, here is a photo of the 10-shot group.  Load was R-P case, CCI 250 Magnum Rifle Primer, 55 grains Hodgen FG powder, Lyman 458125 cast bullet weighing 526 grains.  Original iron sights.

These were crimped, but I think I will go back to non-crimped bullets.  For single shots I am not sure the crimping does any good, and I want to try non-crimping the bullets with the magnum rifle primers.  We'll see what happens with the next batch of shooting.

TK

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tlkeizer posted this 19 December 2013

Greetings,

I noticed there was no photo of the 10-shot group as I read up on what I had done, so will attempt to add it here.  Also, was out a couple days ago and shot up a few rounds that I had left from last spring.  I will put the best group's photo here too (I won't put the hundred yard group the size of typing paper on view, but will admit to it with a new load I won't use again for a long while).   I know this is not a 5-shot or 10-shot group, but I had only 4 of these particular loads. 

The day was -15 (yes, minus 15), calm, overcast, and 8 inches of new snow.  Since the lane and yard were cleared, I decided I needed to go shoot.  By the way, no caribou for me this year; drat.  If both attachments don't come through I will add the second in a few minutes.

TK

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tlkeizer posted this 19 December 2013

Here is the 10-shot group.

TK

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delmarskid1 posted this 20 December 2013

Nice shooting. Outstanding considering the cold! Can you shoot like that wearing gloves?

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tlkeizer posted this 20 December 2013

Delmarskid1 Yes, I do shoot using gloves, but will admit to hands getting cold by the time I am done.  I use a light pair of jersys inside a light pair of leather “Wolverine” brand gloves.  It was not so much the trigger finger getting cold, but the rest of the fingers holding on to the stock.  Interesting to me, the left hand on the forearm did not get as cold as the right hand.   As the day got along, the groups got worse.  I think it was a combination of cold on the rifle, cartridges getting cold, me getting cold, and black powder residue getting built up in the barrel.  Normally I do not brush the barrel when using SPG lubricant, but I think the cold weather allowed the barrel to carbon up unlike during the summer when it stays a lot warmer.  The best group was the second group after brushing the barrel the one time I brushed it. I prefer to shoot when it is warmer, but if I waited it would be a long wait up here.  We are in one of the coldest parts of the interior, not the coldest, but a lot colder than most of the state. TK

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