Dual Tempered Bullets

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  • Last Post 12 December 2012
GBertolet posted this 16 November 2012

Is it possible to have heat treated WW bullets that have the nose area annealed after heat treatment. I am using a 35 Whelen with a SAECO 245 gr bullet. I was sort of thinking after heat treatment, put the bullets standing in a tray of water, covering the bearing surfaces with the noses exposed. As long as I could keep ample water around the bearing surfaces, and allowing the bullets to cool in the water, I would hope to soften the noses, and ultimately have a bullet I can drive 2500fps that will still expand. Did anyone ever try this with any success?

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RicinYakima posted this 16 November 2012

Ed Harris has published an article in one of the Lyman reloading or casting books on this subject. You could PM him. Ric

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CB posted this 17 November 2012

My understanding is that it is possible to anneal the noses of hardened cast bullets by standing them in a pan on cold water and playing a propane torch over the exposed noses briefly. It takes a bit, and you will ruin the first batch, as you figure out exactly how long to heat each one. I think I'd rather experiment with two different alloys instead of this. Obviously, I've never tried this myself.

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jhalcott posted this 28 November 2012

I'm thinking that velocity will blow the soft nose away. It could lead to the bullet going astray inside the animal! The 2 alloy bullets do seem to work quite well, but are a bit tedious to make. the upside is you only NEED a few for each season. You can practice with your NORMAL alloy as it will shoot very close to the 2 alloy type. You can go to some lengths for prettier bullets, or just make tiny dippers for the “soft noses". One question that needs an answer is WHY do you NEED 2500 fps with that big bullet?

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delmarskid1 posted this 29 November 2012

A friend of mine is getting 2400 fps over the chronograph with his '06 using bullets that test out at 11 to 12 bhn. He said that they group great and he gets no leading. You may be able to do as well. Who knows. I'm glad that you have posed this question. I was about to ask the same thing. My thought was to stand the bullets in ice or frozen wet florist foam. I loved that Saeco bullet in my whelens. It grouped well and I'm sure they moved along just fine from the felt recoil. I used wheel weights with a little lino to get the tin I wanted. I'm going to try for the speeds you are after with my .375 because I may need it given my shots may go to 200 yds.

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onondaga posted this 29 November 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet:

Velocities anywhere near 2500 fps will splash soft lead into uselessness or shatter brittle hard lead alloys to dust on impact. There is a good reason that Lyman #2 alloy has been the number one selection for cast bullet hunting for over 100 years. #2 is pure lead plus 5% tin and 5% antimony. It is very ductile and expands without weight loss at hunting load levels.  It will expand double caliber on impact with game animals and retain 100% weight at 1,000 foot pounds or more on impact. This is better than any jacketed bullet can do at any speed. Hunting bullets don't need a lot of velocity to deliver 1,000 foot pounds either.

My .458 with a 350 grain FNGC bullet does this at 200 yards with a muzzle velocity of only 1,700 fps. My 7.62x39 with 165 gr bullet does this at 150 yards with a muzzle velocity of only 2,100 fps.. striking deer size game animals with higher impact levels than this with bullets that have expanded double caliber is completely unnecessary and destroys excessive amounts of meat.

Dangerous game, larger animals like bear, lion, rhinoceros or animals over 1,000 pounds need about 1,500 foot pounds to the vitals or central nervous system to bang flop them dead. These are the recommendations of hunting guides the world over for over 100 years.

The only thing impressive  about a 245 grain bullet going 2500 fps out of a 35 Whelen is capillary damage to the shooter and ruined game meat. That load will deliver 1,000 foot pounds out at 430 yards. You can't convince me that you shoot that well at 430 yards to hit deer with a Whelen, unless it is in real time with me watching you put 5 shots into a 10 inch circle at 430 yards. Is that your expected hunting distance and skill level shooting...then go for it, but be honest to yourself and put the 5 holes in a 10 inch paper picnic plate or target  a half a dozen times to assure yourself that there is no reasonable chance of crippling game in a non - ethical manner. That is a 100 year old hunting guide test at the expected maximum hunting distance, or a respectable guide will limit your range to where you demonstrate that accuracy level.

A superb velocity that delivers 1,000 foot pounds at 200 yards with a 245 grain bullet needs 1,830 fps at the muzzle for deer size game. 1,500 foot pounds at 200 yards for bear or lion needs the bullet going 1,845 fps at the muzzle.

These very useful and deadly load levels are well within the capability of air cooled cast  Lyman #2 alloy , gas checked bullets. They won't make you flinch, they are pleasant to practice and hunt with and devastating on game to 200 yards for bang flop kills with a vital hit. This is what made the Whelen famous, not velocity.

Gary

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jhalcott posted this 04 December 2012

I agree 100% with Gary. I have shot more than a few deer withMY .35 Whelen with 200 and 245 grain cast bullets a couple bears also. MOST were less than 100 yards. The farthest deer was at 179 lasered yards. I never found that bullet as it exited the far side of a 185 pound deer. I the right shoulder and out the left rib cage!

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GBertolet posted this 04 December 2012

The initial intent of my original post, was to see if it was possible to work up a load with the SAECO 245 gr bullet in my 35 Whelen Imp., that I could use on a hunt for elk at 300 + yards if necessiary. The profile of this bullet should fare well at long ranges. I am well aware that 1800 fps is adequate for big game at moderate distances. A flatter shooting bullet was my end goal. Where as, heat treated WW will allow me the velocity, at the expense of expansion, and untreated bullets will allow the expansion at the expense of velocity, I was attempting to find a work around to this conundrum. It looks like I will have my work cut out for me! Thank you for all your responses.

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onondaga posted this 04 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet: The path around the conundrum is air cooled, certified Lyman #2 alloy. The conundrum was solved over 100 years ago.

Gary

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Ed Harris posted this 04 December 2012

If you want stiff hard shanks and soft noses first quench-cast in the normal way, size and crimp GCs, but don't lube. Stand bullets nose up in a hard plastic 9mm ctg. box insert and place that in a bread pan, filled with water, covering the loading block, leaving only 1/4-5/16” of bullet nose exposed. Turn on oven to 375 degrees and watch through glass door until water starts to bubble. THEN TURN OFF OVEN and let all slow cool. There should still be some standing water left in the pan when done. If so lube your bullets. If all wated is gone and plastic ammo tray has melted, reduce your oven setting 25 degs. F and try again.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 December 2012

here is what i would do :

stick with the softer #2 or thereabouts alloy.

then get a laser rangefinder  and verify the readings.

then make a trajectory chart with YOUR GUN  and your loads ...and practice cold shots at gallon milk jugs at random ranges.

i recommend you make scope adjustments for anything over 150 yards ... ( g )...our little shooter group do this kind of thing here, but use a steel coyote!  we can hit it ( often ) at 500 yards with a rainbow 45-70 !

takes a few seconds for the clang to get back !

ken

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onondaga posted this 05 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1738>GBertolet:

Your initial question about your 245 gr bullet in a 35 Whelen for elk at 300 yards is just math to figure you need 2110 fps to deliver 1,000 foot pounds at 300 yards for a clean kill with #2 alloy. This is not out of the range of gas checked #2 alloy bullets. Hodgdon 380 powder would get you there with pressures that #2 alloy can handle with gas checked bullets with a good .002-.004” over G to G bore diameter bullet fit and any decent lube.

H380 is a slower powder with significantly lower pressures than other powders in the group that easily surpasses the 2100 fos with a 250 grain jacketed bullet with a maximum with 59 grains getting the 250 grainer jacketed bullet going 2416 fps.

Charge reduction software  puts that bullet 2110 fps with 49.8 grains of H380. This will put your cast bullet velocity just slightly over what you need to kill elk at 300 yards and is a load with very safe pressure for your rifle and within the range of #2 alloy gas checked bullets.

I recommend that charge for your 245 grain gas checked bullet in  #2 alloy in your 35 Whelen. It is a very safe load without pressure worries for your rifle. I'd just load em up and see how they shoot out of your rifle.

I have no clue how accurate it will be, but you can walk  the charge a bit lower and higher and see what happens on paper.

I feel confident the load will punch through both shoulders,  through and through,  and leave a 70 caliber hole through an Elk as it bowls the animal over at 325 yards.

Sighting in the 48.9 grain  H380 load with your 245 grain bullet at 2110 fps to shoot 4 inches high at 50 yards with the rifle scoped puts your POI at 250 yards with this bullet path projected:

0 yards  -1.6" 25         +1.4 50           4.02 75           5.99 100         7.36 125         8.07 150         8.09 175         7.35 200          5.8 225          3.37 250           0 275          -4.39 300          -9.86 325          -16.51

Online free to use software I used used for these calculations is at:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/reduced.asp>http://www.handloads.com/calc/reduced.asp (reduced load calculator)

and

http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html>http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html   (ballistic calculator)

There are many tips and suggestions on this forum for maximizing accuracy with cast bullet loads. You will need 2 MOA accuracy or about 2” groups at 100 yards with this load to be serviceable at 300 yards on elk. If the load doesnt do that for you, Here are some tips I recommend in another post:

reply #251 on page 13 of this topic about getting .22 cast bullets shooting accurately: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8630&forumid=78&page=13

The tips are all valid for every caliber.           Gary

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pat i. posted this 05 December 2012

Ed Harris wrote: If all wated is gone and plastic ammo tray has melted, reduce your oven setting 25 degs. F and try again.

LOL

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 12 December 2012

pat i. wrote: Ed Harris wrote: If all wated is gone and plastic ammo tray has melted, reduce your oven setting 25 degs. F and try again.

LOL :shock: Double LOL! ROTFLMAO!

I'm sorry. But if I wanted high velocity, I would load up my tried and proven jacketed pet loads. I know exactly how they perform in game. At 3000+ FPS But anymore, my hunting comprises the steel targets out to 420 yards. (According to somebodies range finder) I love that shiny star the cast bullets put on those chewed up and repainted steels out there. Easy to see who smacked the gong. :dance

I don't shoot cast lead for velocity. I work for accuracy and fun.

Ma wife would have a fit if I melted my stuff in her oven. :shock:

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 12 December 2012

Man Gary, that is quite and arc in that data.

The bear ran over the mountain, The bear ran over the mountain, The bear ran over the mountain, So I dropped a lump on his hed.

Sorry, I'm just silly today....

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joeb33050 posted this 12 December 2012

8.6.5.1 HOW TO MAKE SOFT NOSE CAST HUNTING BULLETS Bill McGraw

I've read about several ways to make a soft-nosed hunting bullet and considered the difficulties of the two-part mould for nose and base, or casting a soft lead alloy into the nose cavity before pouring the base with a harder alloy. These two certainly will work, but seem to be either too expensive (different moulds for each caliber) or unreliable in keeping the two parts glued/bonded together after firing. For most purposes, any WW alloy of 12-14 BHN as cast can be reliably shot at 1800-2000 FPS and will serve most hunters. 30-30 Win. does well in this case. For the higher MV's up to 2850 FPS, the CB alloy must be heat-treated to 28 BHN at a minimum for WW and Pb mixtures. An 8 BHN alloy of 2:1 ratio of Pb: WW will heat treat to 28 BHN, then the nose may be annealed back to the original 8 BHN for the hunting CB. Straight WW alloy can be used but the nose anneal will be no lower than the as-cast BHN of 12-14. I heat-treat the pre-sized and gas-checked CB's in the oven at 450F for 45 min. and quench quickly in water. A small container such as a coffee percolator filter (aluminum with the bottom perforated) is what I use for the CB container in the oven, but a small 6.5 oz. tuna can may be used as long as the bottom is perforated (don't cut your fingers handling such). I fill a 1 quart plastic pail with tap water for quenching. Once the 45 min. time is reached, carefully use an oven mitt to pick up the container and quickly place, not drop the container in the water. Insure the quench is done quickly. These bullets must be aged at least 24 hours, 72 is better. Once aged, verify if the BHN is minimum 28 BHN with a proper tool. Without the tool (LBT or other), just cut samples of non-HT and HT samples with side cutting or wire cutters to verify the HT bullets are harder. To anneal the noses, I place one CB into a small container (a metal jar cap) of water to cover the body of the bullet, leaving the nose uncovered. The water is the heat sink. I use a grain alcohol flame, but a gentle propane flame, even a butane cigar torch lighter will work. Heat the bullet nose for about 5 seconds; a larger mass nose may take longer. Do not melt the nose. If the nose is a FN, place a drop of water on the nose; when the water boils off, the bullet nose is annealed. Use the same timing in seconds for each bullet nose. You may then want to verify the base and nose BHN. The nose should be the original BHN prior to HT and the base may lose 3-4 BHN; I consider 24 BHN as a minimum for hi-vel loads. Remove that CB and repeat with another. The water may get hot but does not seem to make any difference; you may add cooler water. Allow the bullets to dry; then they are ready to lube with your favorite lube and load. No more than 20 annealed-nose bullets are needed for any hunting season. I normally used only 5 nose-annealed with 15 others without nose-anneal when I hunted. In a pinch, the non-annealed bullets will hunt if a proper hit is made; A FN CB is usually better than a RN or SP. Sighting in and testing the accuracy (<2 MOA is typical) of these is necessary; however, the HT bullets without nose-anneal will shoot into the same group and saves the annealed nose bullets. This process may take some time to do, but once one does this, you will be hooked on this simple process. The rule for fitting the bullets is necessary. The CB nose and body should be slightly larger, 0.001-0.003” larger than the bore and groove of the barrel, and the throat should be only slightly larger by 0.0005” than the sized CB diameter. I seat the bullet to 0.015” off the lands or slightly touching the lands. Insure the loaded rounds will chamber from the magazine and seat the OAL for that purpose if necessary. Without this fitting, the bullet will gas-cut, foul the bore, and will be inaccurate. If the throat is much too large from wear, a wad, card or plastic (I use PVC, 0.062” thick and diameter cut for the largest part of the throat origin) will allow the load to shoot well; the wad serves as another gas check; its diameter may be larger than the bullet but will fit snugly in the neck. The wad must fit well inside the cartridge neck between the powder charge and bullet base for best performance. If the chamber will not allow the wad to fit in the neck, do not attempt to use a wad. I have used fillers in place of the wad for these loads, but they are controversial and sometimes decrease accuracy. For 25-30 cal. bottleneck cartridges, I use the slower powders such as AA3100, 4831, or 4350 for a 100 % density load, as long as the book load is proper for the cartridge and bullet weight. The faster powders in the 4895 range have not done well; I don't know why but I am testing 4895-S to see if I can make it work in 308 Win. and 303 Brit. I shot 3 white tail deer with these loads, two running and one standing. All rounds exited. The noses will mushroom on entry and the mushroom will usually slough off doing its damage to major organs and may exit if shot thru the lungs. The base will track straight without tumbling. The 2850 MV loads will penetrate from front to back of a white tail deer. The bullet acts much like a Nosler Partition; perhaps better since the base of the bullet will not upset. These loads have normal heavy recoil and will wear the barrel throat much like any hi-vel load. Check the bore for any fouling; keep the bore clean, but if accuracy is maintained, no severe cleaning is necessary. I used a 30-30 Marlin, 311041 at 1900 MV (IMR 3031); 250 Sav. with a custom 90 gr. SP CB at 2775 MV (AA3100) for two white tails, three total with 30-30 and 250 Sav. I developed loads for a 30-06: RCBS 165-Sil at 2550MV (AA3100), 2850MV (H4350) and 314299 at 2475MV (AA3100); but did not get a shot. My 35 Whelen with the 358009 at 290 gr. prefers a soft 12-14 BHN at 1900 MV (RL7). 45-70's seem to do well with any BHN, but soft alloy at any MV over 1000 MV seems to work well. None of these ideas are my own. I give credit to Veral Smith (LBT), the CBA Fouling Shot Journal, and other publications.

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joeb33050 posted this 12 December 2012

8.6.5.1 HOW TO MAKE CAST HUNTING BULLETS Ken Mollohan

Here's a topic for discussion: Expansion of cast bullets, particularly in the context of hunting bullets. How do you get it, and how effective is it in your experience? I only know of a few techniques: 1. Adjust the alloy hardness to the velocity: Takes a lot of playing around to get good accuracy with soft bullets, but it's great when you've got it right. 2. Hollow points. Not too effective in my limited experience. Or perhaps TOO effective: The hollow point tends to shatter rather than promote mushrooming. Lost a substantial portion of a deer's forequarter from this one time. Same effect, whether the hollow point is drilled or cast. You can play with the depth and diameter of the HP, but they mostly don't expand, or they shatter. 3. Anneal the nose: Play a torch on the nose of the bullet until it softens / begins to melt, while keeping the base in a tray of water. Works, but not consistent, due to variables in application of hand-held torch. 4. Bump the nose: This is the same technique used to fit the nose to the bore. The expansion will also break down dendritic structures, and produce a softer nose. Never tried it, but it should have a noticeable effect. 5. Pure lead nose. Lyman used to sell a two-part set of molds for pistol bullets, so you could cast a hard base and a lead nose, then super-glue them together. Supposed to work well, but a lot of trouble. Another version is a cast lead round ball or commercial buckshot dropped in the mold to give a softer alloy nose. The base will be the (presumably) harder alloy you are casting with. A lot depends on technique: Low alloy temperatures tend to just wrap around the cold ball, especially if it's buckshot, with a graphite surface. Cast lead balls seem to work best because they don't have the graphite coating that inhibits blending, but the amount of work is doubled, and that doesn't even consider much higher reject rates. 6. Cut an X into the nose with your knife. Learned this as a kid. I also quickly learned it's a BLEEP of a lot of dangerous blade work, and doesn't work worth a flip! Took several weeks to heal my finger, each accompanied by a lecture or two or three from my dad about cutting toward myself. 7. The ancient “nose divided by a sheet of paper” trick: Just insert a bit of paper between the halves of the mold and close them on it. With proper positioning, the paper will divide the nose of the bullet (and as much of the base as you want) in half. The paper can be shaved off after the bullet is cast, so it doesn't interfere with sizing & loading. Works great, but it's a lot of trouble. I've also used household aluminum foil with good results. On impact, the nose shears off into two secondary projectiles that go flopping off into the target, while the remaining base - now almost a wadcutter - bores right on through. Also works great, if you can be reasonably consistent with placement of the paper strip. Best part is, this will give reliable 'expansion' of even low velocity pistol bullets if done right. Added note: I shaved half of a .38 wadcutter off, and got it to cast a short, stubby bullet @ 75 grain in wheelweights. The durn things are actually a bit shorter than they are long, even with the little nose dimple. They're great to play with, and I can get THREE of them into a .357 case over a moderate charge of H-110. Across the length of my basement, they spread out into a pretty regular triangle with sides of about three inches. Separation is very consistent, I think due to the little nose dimple. A cylinder of them gives me 18 .38 slugs, the equivalent of a double barreled 12 gauge with 000 buckshot. This isn't expansion per se, but the increase in impacting surface area is similar to a very effective expanding bullet.

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onondaga posted this 12 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6130>Sonny Edmonds:

The OP is shooting at Elk. he'd only have to hold over at 325 Yards, Just aiming at the center would do it out to 300. Anyway Sonny, the bullet path to line of sight relation through the scope can easily be optimized differently through a change in sight in distance or chosen holdover at a given distance. I didn't play much with the software and was just giving an example I'd likely use if it was my 35 Whelen.  Actually the path is pretty similar to my .458 WM bear load.  For a moment, I almost un-blocked Joe, but then I'd have to change my page size and take a pill. I think the OPs trajectory is nice with the load I recommended.

Gary

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