IMR 4227 problem

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  • Last Post 22 September 2012
R. Dupraz posted this 18 September 2012

I have been using IMR 4227 since the 60's in handguns and a K-Hornet rifle with full loads and nary a problem. More recently, past five years or so, I have been using it in my 7.62 Israelie K-98, which has a pristine bore, to shoot the military matches. It has shot and continues to shoot some fine groups.

The load is 16 grns. behind the RCBS 30-165-Sil bullet which drops from the mold at 178 grns. However, this summer I began to notice a hard ring of fouling in the bore about three inches ahead of the chamber after about ten or twelve rounds. A few swipes with a copper brush and bore sovent takes the ring out and we are back in business again.

The only thing that I changed was, before this summer, I was loading 17 grns behind a heavier cast bullet, the RCBS 30-180-SP which came out at about 190 grns. 

Seems to me that some where in my foggy memory I remember reading about 4227 and fouling. but the strange thing is that i have never had this happen in this Mauser before after many many rounds of cast and 4227 through it.

The powder is from a stash that came in the old blue cans. Shoots good yet though.

Anyone notice something like this while using 4227?  Pressure not high enough?

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PETE posted this 18 September 2012

Not sure where you heard this about IMR 4227 but, like you and many others shooting in ASSRA competition, I've never had any problems. In fact I just got done shooting down an 8 lb. can of it. It's also one of the “go to” powders I try when working up loads for cast bullets.

Pete

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Ed Harris posted this 18 September 2012

I think your charge is a bit light to get a clean burn. I've found that 18 of 4227 works in about anything and is a good starting load. I creep up in small increments from there, but don't load any lighter, as there are better powders for that. When I was using 4227 I would use 18 grs. in a .30-30 or 7.62x39, 19 grs. in a .308 Win., Krag or .303 Brit, and 20 grs. in an 8x57, 7.62x54R or .30-'06.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 18 September 2012

I think your charge is a bit light to get a clean burn. I've found that 18 of 4227 works in about anything and is a good starting load. I creep up in small increments from there, but don't load any lighter, as there are better powders for that. When I was using 4227 I would use 18 grs. in a .30-30 or 7.62x39, 19 grs. in a .308 Win., Krag or .303 Brit, and 20 grs. in an 8x57, 7.62x54R or .30-'06.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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onondaga posted this 18 September 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=82>R. Dupraz:

You got a good and valid suggestion from http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=207>Ed Harris. I am going to add a bit to that.

Your fouling certainly doesn't sound severe. Some bore polishing and a wax treatment should also make it disappear and stay away.

Give my simple bore polishing method a try. It puts a slick hard shine in a bore that cast bullets love. After the shine, a top notch bore waxing will put your bore over the edge in slickness and fouling resistance. Use some Johnson's Paste Wax to finish up your cleaning routine when you clean your rifle. Put some JPW on a soft flannel patch and swab the bore with JPW. Wait 5 minutes and then buff the wax with a dry  fluffy bore mop, take about 10 strokes.

Here is a link to my simple bore polishing method:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8364&forum_id=63>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

Give this a try, your bore and bullets will like it, ballistic pressure will be slightly reduced and velocity will also slightly increase. Bore maintenance will be much easier after the polishing too. The polishing is also a great break-in procedure for a new rifle and eliminates the traditional vigorous shoot and clean repetitive break-in that takes a lot of ammo. This polishing method is a one time deal to polish a bore or to remove copper fouling to start shooting cast bullets and not a routine for cleaning. It takes some elbow grease and maybe a helping hand, but do the full 100 pull throughs adding polish after each 10 and your bore will be slicker than new and slicker than a top notch match barrel.

A brilliant hard shine in your bore makes a big difference when shooting cast bullets.

Gary

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R. Dupraz posted this 18 September 2012

Ed:

Thanks for the reply, This is kind of what I suspected and is consistant with what I remember reading about the characteristics of 4227 back when. Even dropping one grain and shooting a little lighter bullet probably is at the bottom of the envelope for the powder. I do use light neck tension, only enought hold the bullet firmly with NM cases that I annealed at the begining of this summer. And the case necks are only slightly blackened by blowback.

Thing is, I have tried charges from 13-18 grns with this bullet and the old beast likes  16 best. so maybe I'll just have to put up with the fouling untill my stash runs out and then try something else. 

R. Dupraz

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 18 September 2012

Gary:

I have read your posts regarding the bore polishing and waxing. Sounds interesting and think I would like to try it sometime. I'm just reluctant to change anything right now when the rifle is shooting pretty well and I think I have things pretty well figured out. Maybe when my present supply of 4227 runs out and I will have to basically start over again.

Thanks.

R. Dupraz  

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PETE posted this 18 September 2012

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. In the SS game as done by ASSRA shooters 14.2 to 14.6 grs. of IMR 4227 is used by many shooters along with 200/220 gr. PB bullets. MV's average in the 1400 to 1500 fps range and sub MOA at 200 yds. is not uncommon, if you plan on winning that is. :) Most competitors will shoot anywhere from 50 to 100 rds. without feeling the necessity of cleaning.

Pete

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Pigslayer posted this 19 September 2012

Ed, I see that you have used 4227 in the 7.62x54R. I have been using 5744 with . . . pretty good results @ 50 yds in that cartridge. (200 gr. Accurate bore rider) In your experience with that cartridge would 4227 be a better alternative?

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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R. Dupraz posted this 19 September 2012

Pete:

My CPA 38-55, when breach seated with the 300 grn. Hoch in front of 14 grns. of IMR 4227, put five shots in 1/2" at 100 yds once. At that time, I was just checking different powder charges and 14 grns was the most accurate. As I remember there were no fouling issues then. Although I think 4227 probably burns a little dirtyer than some powders, In these light charges, bullet weight might have something to do with the fouling issue, I think.

RD

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JeffinNZ posted this 19 September 2012

The other thing to consider is that IMR4227 and H4227 are now the same powder made by ADI in AU as AR2205. You may not be shooting the same powder that you once did. See the MSDS on the Hodgdon site and it displays the facts.

Cheers from New Zealand

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R. Dupraz posted this 19 September 2012

Jeff:

I think there is something to what you wrote. Several years back when I first started shooting this rifle in the military matches, I began with some old IMR 4227 that I already had to develope a load. It shot well so when It ran out I bought some H4227 at that time. Then I happened to be in a old local gun shop and noticed that “Doc” still had some of the old IMR 4227 in the blue cans yet, which I had started with at the begining. Made an offer on all and bought them all. This is what I've been using but I did notice that all cans are not from the same lot either.

Anyway, coming down to the end of it, so next season, I'll have to start over and try something different, thanks.

R. Dupraz

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JeffinNZ posted this 20 September 2012

I used to have a primo load for my .303 Brit using AR2205 and a couple of years ago with went off the boil. I changed, with great results, to 2400 as Alliant powders had only just reappeared in NZ. Wouldn't change back now. 2400 rocks.

Cheers from New Zealand

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joeb33050 posted this 20 September 2012

Yesterday I shot the final test for an article. The load was 314999 203 gr no g.c., Lyman super moly lube and 7/IMR4227. I've used as little as 6/IMR4227 during experiments. Yesterday I fired 27 shots for the test, then looked for any unusual fouling. Didn't see any. Cleaned the bore with Marvel Mystery Oil, the 4th patch was pretty clean. So in my 308 Win Striker, small charges of IMR4227 don't foul. The IMR4227 is from a plastic bottle, says “Manufactured in Canada, Packaged in USA". BTW, I've used 14.5/IMR4227 in my 30-30 bench gun for ~20 years with no problems. joe b.

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JeffinNZ posted this 21 September 2012

Joe, what date code is on the IMR?

Cheers from New Zealand

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joeb33050 posted this 21 September 2012

JeffinNZ wrote: Joe, what date code is on the IMR?

Is this it? 1120909 4481

The bar code is 7 54486 05405 6

joe b.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 September 2012

i believe that a source of powder fouling varnish can also be caused by a slightly enlarged spot in the barrel....i have seen this in new match barrels, but maybe could also come from some kind of “bulgeing ” .....

as forrest gump says.....things happen (g).

ken

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R. Dupraz posted this 21 September 2012

Barrel bulging !! Don't even say Things like that!!  While I think You are right, thankfully this is not the case.

I think it's just a matter of asking 4227 to do something that it can't given the low charges and relatively light bullets coupled with minimum neck tension.

I had a very small amount of Hercules 2400 in the square cube metal can left from back in the day. Never enough to do much with but enough to load a few 7.62/308 rounds with 16 grns behind the RCBS 30-165-sil. Shot them yesterday at 100 yds. and the load showed some real  possibilities. And, the bore was a whole lot cleaner than before. 

Granted, the new 2400 is probably somewhat different but If I can find some around here, I have a project for next week. If the wind ever quits blowing.

RD  

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LWesthoff posted this 21 September 2012

Are you trying to tell us that the wind ever DOES quit blowing in South Dakota?

Wes

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 September 2012

Well, cours it quits !  Right about dark and starts up again just before daylight, sometimes

We have lots of “calm” days in SD. At least that's how a local TV station's 24 hr weather channel reported it a couple of weeks ago one day." Winds, Calm". Actual wind speed--15-20mph with gusts to 30.

 

RD

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