Here's a question I got in an email. I'm stumped.

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Last Post 26 February 2012

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 12 February 2012

"I want to either find or design an optimum cartridge for shooting lead, based off a .308 case base dimension. I've got several 1903A3 Actions, and I want to make them into “Lead shooters". Now, I'd further like to design the cartridge such that it'll use well established powder, darn near fill the case, but deliver modest YET consistent velocities for a .30 caliber bullet at the magic velocity of ~ 1600 fps (no gas checks wanted). Has this ever been done? Has someone designed a reasonable wildcat off a .308 case, and made it shoot well with a simple cast bullet (full case, consistent velocity, reasonable pressure, clean burning)???"

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19 Comments

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Standard Member

onondaga posted this 12 February 2012

Bump the shoulder back and make the neck the same length as a 30-30 neck. Change the shoulder angle to 15 degrees to reduce case volume. That will do it.

Gary

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 12 February 2012

I think he is in fantasy land thinking he is goi g to get target accuracy at 1600 fps without a GC.

He doesn't need a wildcat cartridge, chamber his .30 cal. barrel to 7.62x39 Lapua. The Lapua chhamber design is VERY important. It is like a factory produced Ardito chamber which will accept 200 grain bullets like #311299 seated with the GC to the base of the neck. Use a nominal caseful of RL-7 with linotype bullet or use Varget, 4895, or RL-15 for wheelweights.

03A3 extractor will pull out 7.62x39 brass. Fit cut off Ruger Mini Thirty magazine body under receiver to get it to feed.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 12 February 2012

I replied to him, I'm interested in what others say and think. joe b.

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Standard Member

Sonny Edmonds posted this 12 February 2012

If you want to have fun and experiment, that's one thing. But why “reinvent” the wheel just to try and reinvent the wheel?

(I want to neck down a 30-06 case to .177 and push a BB to 10,000 feet per second. What powder should I use?) :D :P

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Standard Member

Pigslayer posted this 12 February 2012

1600 fps without a gas check? HMMMMMMMM. Maybe . . . that's moving right along for not using a gas check. But then I've always used a gas check on everything I've cast. I've been told that Lyman #1 has achieved close to jacketed velocities without a gas check. Using 23 grns. 5744 powder in my Mosin behind a 200gr. Accurate mold GC bullet. Wish I had a chronograph.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Online CBA Member

pat i posted this 12 February 2012

If he has his heart set on spending good money trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse for target shooting (the 03 action) tell him to forget the plain base idea and chamber up a barrel in 30 BR. If he just wants to shoot plain base bullets tell him to find a surplus 03 barrel and shoot it as is. If he thinks he's going to get any kind of target accuracy with a plain base at 1600 fps tell him good luck.

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Standard Member

shastaboat posted this 12 February 2012

I remember reading about the 30 JOHNSON SPECIAL somewhere that did just what you are proposing to do with the 30-30 based case. Found the article in COMBO EDITION OF WILDCAT CARTRIDGES page 380, published by Wolfe Publishing in 1992. A good read.

Because I said so!

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Standard Member

Sonny Edmonds posted this 12 February 2012

There is a rift in the force today. And posting here is acting odd, or it was.

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 12 February 2012

I have a 03A3 with a pitted 4 groove barrel, I got from Numrich a new two groove new ( Remington '43 vintage) barrel for the sum of 12 US$ and have the best cast bullet rifle and the most accurate possible between the limitations of that ancient action.

Non sufficiently rigid action ,enormous firing pin,military two stage trigger,terrible lock time.......................

It was thirty years ago when those things were legal on both sides of the Big Pond..

And I was younger and could shoot from prone.

OF course cast bullets only,at 200 meters.And I used to beat many people shooting the 6.5 Carlgustaf with full loads and Sierra HPBT. Envious fellows at my old gunclub , passed a law to outlaw cast bullets in competition,just when I was moving to another town and range.

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Standard Member

runfiverun posted this 12 February 2012

i push plain based cast to 1600+ with no problems in my 357,44,45 colt and others. ed's idea of the x39 case would work well, so would the 300-blackout,300 whisper. but they take a smaller bolt head. getting a 30 caliber on a case head that size that is only gonne hold 16-20 grs of slow pistol powder, is gonna be a challenge. he might just want to start grinding down some sizing dies till he gets there.

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CBA Member

Alexander Dembski posted this 12 February 2012

I agree that the best and cheapest way to go is with a surplus 30-06 barrel. Use the money saved on the barrel to buy a supply of gas checks. I have had great success with cast bullets in my Springfields with GC bullets at around 1600fps and have placed first in many matches with them, CBA postals 20 years ago and my local club's shoulder-to-shoulder four position matches over the last twenty five years. My current Springfield will group under an inch all day long with the Lee 150 gr. Flatnose GC (designed for the 30-30) and 12.5 grains Unique. I have won many 100yard matches with that load. It works well at 200, but I prefer a200-220 grain bullet at that range. Fights the wind better.

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 February 2012

i applaud such ambition ... reminds me of all the windmills i attacked when i wuz young (g) ... i did wing a couple, tho (g) ..

not mentioned yet is the accuracy goal(s) ... if 2 moa is ok. maybe the triad could be accomplished ... for no commercial gas check, maybe check the archives for discussions of fillers used as gas checks...ken mollohan has tried this quite a bit.

forward and upward !!!

ken

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Standard Member

Sonny Edmonds posted this 13 February 2012

giorgio de galleani wrote:

And I was younger and could shoot from prone.

I bet you still could...

But if you are like me, getting back up is nearly impossible....

:P /images/emoticons/134.gif

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CBA Member

raytear posted this 13 February 2012

RE: getting up from prone.

Pshaw, that ain't nothin'! It's trying to balance on that basket ball that has developed on my front over the years while trying to maintain a sight picture with sights I can't see so well anymore that's the hard part. :P

Good shooting! RT

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 13 February 2012

The Members are right,I think I could lie down and shoot from prone,and see the front sight through a peep sight , the target being a gray blur thing,but the big probllem would be raising up ,and standing. again.

Now we have a very cold winter ,but if the global warming will rise the temperature,il put on my padded shooting jacket and try to shoot my 03A3 from prone .

Just have to find some help to rise afterwards.I have been thoroughly trained on the technique to rise after a fall.

This is the reason I like the fiber optic front sight,in my woods ,I see it like a red lamp through the rear ghost ring , and some lucky times ,connect with the black wild sows.

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 13 February 2012

Can a standard 7.62x39 chamber such as in an H&R Topper type be re-chambered to 7.62x39 Lapua?

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 13 February 2012

tturner53 wrote: Can a standard 7.62x39 chamber such as in an H&R Topper type be re-chambered to 7.62x39 Lapua?

You may be able to rethroat a bit.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 16 February 2012

My response.

The morning of the day the gossamer albatross flew across the channel, an expert whose initials are L.H. explained to me in no uncertain terms that the flight was impossible and the Kramer prize was safe. Maybe nothing is impossible, but your proposition extends the “difficult” envelope. Your recipe is 03A3 action, .473” case head, powder about fills case, .30 caliber, 1600 fps, cast plain based bullets.

Here's what I think.
Forget the 03A3 actions and get a Savage short action (10, 11, 12 etc) that comes with a good trigger, is drilled and tapped for scope mounts, is designed to switch barrels easily, and is generally a substantially better action than most.
I think it extremely unlikely that the .473&rdquo; case can be shortened to the point where a .30 caliber bullet can be moved to 1600 fps with a case (almost) full of any powder. With no gas checks, (GC), no leading and accuracy required; it's less likely.
I have found it difficult to shoot plain based = no GC bullets above ~1500 fps with accuracy and no leading. I suspect that plastic wads and a very good smooth barrel would be required.
About any Savage 308 Win. will shoot cast GC bullets into groups averaging ~1&rdquo; for 5 shots at 100 yards. 
John Ardito experimented with shortened 308 cases in various lengths, and picked the 308 X 1.5 as a/the good/best choice. 
Today the 308 X 1.5 with a small primer pocket is the 30 BR = Bench Rest. I make mine from R-P 7mm, BR brass. I'm sure that cases shorter than 1.5&rdquo; can be made from cases of the .473&rdquo; base size, 30/06, 308, 243 etc, but I don't know why one would do that.
If you must use the 03A3 action, consider a shortened 30-30 case. The 30-30 can be used in .473&rdquo; bolt face guns with a little gunsmithing. Single shot. 
The plain based bullet accuracy game today is about the 32 Miller/Short and near copies, and the .30 caliber 32/20 case, the .30/20. For bolt guns, the various .221/. 222/.223 based 30 caliber wildcats would give a case full of powder. Examples are the .300 Whisper and .300 Blackout. These are kinda sorta bolt gun versions of the Miller and .30/20.
A short action Savage rifle can be switched to .223 = .378&rdquo; head by changing the bolt head and barrel. Again, single shot. 
Teeny cases full of powder. If you go to     http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/

in “FILES", in the Third Edition, 7.12 CARTRIDGE SIZE AND ACCURACY, you may find it interesting. So, I completely agree with your recipe, except that you've got the wrong action, the wrong cartridge family, the wrong velocity or wrong GC decision and the wrong notion of the relationship between loading density and accuracy. But, nothing's impossible-maybe. Keep me posted, please; joe b.

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Standard Member

FilippoMo posted this 26 February 2012

giorgio de galleani wrote:

Sounds reasonable if you can't beat them outlaw them.I shot plane base bullets in a Schutzen rifle and velocity were around 1400 fps,plain based breach seated.Still have a nice group fired at 200 yards.The cartidge was based on the 5,6x50 R and 8 mm in diametre.It would not be adequate for a springfield though sincerely Filippo

Here's a question I got in an email. I'm stumped.

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