can alloy change diameter much?

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  • Last Post 02 May 2011
biddulph posted this 20 March 2011

Hi all, I cast up a bunch of lyman .224 cal bullets out of about 15% antimony lead and found that the gas checks dont really fit on. I did a bunch out of plain wheel weights and all was well. Any ideas?

I want to fire them in my Weatherby .224 mag fairly fast so wanted them hard.

cheers

James

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Dale53 posted this 20 March 2011

You ARE correct. Alloy DOES change size. More antimony, larger bullet. Less Antimony, smaller bullet.

I would suggest that you dilute your alloy with either scrap lead, pure lead, and make sure you have some tin (I normally use 2%) for castability.

Linotype is 86% Lead, 3% tin, and 11% Antimony.

Lyman #2 is 90% Lead, 5% Tin, and 5% Antimony.

Somewhere between those two alloys you should find happiness.

Dale53

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joeb33050 posted this 21 March 2011

If you tap a ball bearing or round-head screw into the gas check it will open up and let it seat on the gas check shank of the bullet. Takes a few minutes per lot, but not that long. I'd seat the gas checks then in a separate operation.

joe b. 

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Dollar Bill posted this 21 March 2011

joeb33050 wrote: If you tap a ball bearing or round-head screw into the gas check it will open up and let it seat on the gas check shank of the bullet. Takes a few minutes per lot, but not that long. I'd seat the gas checks then in a separate operation.

joe b. 

Good tip, Joe. That way you maintain good bullet diameter and don't scrape any of the shank off the bullet when seating the check.

Is that the issue, James: The shank is too large?

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Clod Hopper posted this 21 March 2011

Yes! This is well documented. Goto:

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.html

Left side part way down.

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bsdger45 posted this 22 March 2011

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition, page 58, had a chart of weights and diameters from various alloys. For 225415.......... lead 47 g .2246 WW 46 .2248

2 45 .2250

Lino 44 .2252 total variance .0006

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biddulph posted this 22 March 2011

hi Joe and Dollar Bill,

thats right, its the shank thats too big. I also cast up some .375 and 30cal bullets in the same run but gas checks fit onto those fine.

I like the ball bearing idea, I'll give that a go.

cheers guys, many thanks.

James

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Clod Hopper posted this 22 March 2011

I have often wondered if this explains why so many are brainwashed that cast bullets must be hard, hard, hard. When you go from softer alloys to harder alloys, the resulting bullets are larger by a few thousandenthes. Even sizing may not reduce the harder alloy as much as the softer alloy. Since the importance of the dimensions of the throat and bore were not understood, the shooter assumed that the harder alloy itself solved the leading problem when the answer was more complex.

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RicinYakima posted this 22 March 2011

I agree, it is more complex than we think. Ric

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pschmidlkofer posted this 01 April 2011

I once had some cast bullets that after loading were to big to fit in the cylinder. I used to much linotype in the mix. But rather than just pull them and start over I just ran them thru the sizing die again and it worked.

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Dicko posted this 02 May 2011

Clod Hopper wrote: I have often wondered if this explains why so many are brainwashed that cast bullets must be hard, hard, hard. When you go from softer alloys to harder alloys, the resulting bullets are larger by a few thousandenthes. Even sizing may not reduce the harder alloy as much as the softer alloy. Since the importance of the dimensions of the throat and bore were not understood, the shooter assumed that the harder alloy itself solved the leading problem when the answer was more complex.

Brainwashing has nothing to do with it, and implies that those who recommend hard alloys have no solid basis.   Alloy hardness is one of the factors that relate to bore leading.    Despite arguments to the contrary, harder bullets foul bores less, all else being equal.   That's because pure lead is so soft that it readily smears when rubbed on harder material.  If you don't believe that, try shooting pure lead at 1500FPS !

Its true that harder alloys cast bigger than soft, because shrinkage is less.   But it is not a few thousandths.   I've measured lots of 'em, and the difference between pure lead and 4/12 linotype is about one thousandth in a 30 cal bullet.

Its also true that hard alloys come out of the sizing die slightly bigger, because they have more “spring” than pure lead.   But the difference is small enough not to matter in practical terms. 

You are of course right that fitting the bullet to the rifle is important, without which no amount of experimenting with alloy is going to achieve much.   But assuming everything else has been done right, it is well proven that hard alloys are more accurate.    Not by much, and only detectable in a very accurate rifle and load, but it is there.   Ask Veral Smith who tested it thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dicko posted this 02 May 2011

biddulph wrote: Hi all, I cast up a bunch of lyman .224 cal bullets out of about 15% antimony lead and found that the gas checks dont really fit on. I did a bunch out of plain wheel weights and all was well. Any ideas?

I want to fire them in my Weatherby .224 mag fairly fast so wanted them hard.

cheers

James While putting together my other post, I forgot to address the original question.   Yes, as others have said, it relates to the different shrinkage of hard and soft alloys.   Antimonial alloys shrink less than pure lead, and the harder the alloy the less the shrinkage nd the bigger the bullet.

Obviously your bullet is a close fit to the gas check when cast (relatively) soft.   So close in fact that the slightly bigger diameter of a harder alloy is enough to prevent fitting the gas check.    

It is not unusual.   Moulds are made to tolerances, and I have measured as much as two thousandths difference between two identical moulds.   I have two 30 cal moulds.   The Hornady gas check is a push fit on one and loose on the other.   Some moulds are so undersize at the gas check shoulder that the gas check won't crimp on.   The remedy is to bore out the mould on a lathe.   There are two possible remedies for your oversize shoulder.   The easy one is that a another make of gas check might fit, eg Gator instead f Hornady.   The other, is as recommended by others, expand the gas check.

Under no circumstances soften the alloy as has been suggested.    Despite some claims to the contrary, a hard alloy is better for high velocity.   15% Antimony is harder than linotype and probably unnecessary, but can do no harm.   Stick with it and see how it performs.   With gas check you can rely on it doing 2500FPS with no difficulty.   Probably a bit more, and I know of a 375H&H rifle that clocked 2700FPS with no trouble.    The limitation will be that, for various reasons, cast bullets can become wildly inaccurate above 2500FPS.  

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

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72coupe posted this 02 May 2011

I use the round end of a 1/4 inch drill bit for expanding 224 gas checks. Being able to hold it and use it to sort and move the checks makes it go fast.

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argie1891 posted this 02 May 2011

your post

I once had some cast bullets that after loading were to big to fit in the cylinder. I used to much linotype in the mix. But rather than just pull them and start over I just ran them thru the sizing die again and it worked.

i did this once with 45 acp ammo then pulled a bullet it did i wonderful job of sizing the bullet down to almost exactly to a 44 caliber bullet. like .430. when you run the case with bullet seated back into the sizer you really make a very small bullet. i shot some for accuracy and must admit i still hit the target but it must affect accuracy. i really dont recomend this. argei1891 aka joe gifford

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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