Round ball in 1894 Marlin 44 mag?

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  • Last Post 18 January 2011
rhouser posted this 07 January 2011

I just posted into an Old 30 cal Bunny gun thread about this idea, but, it is getting funnier.  It starts with the 1 - 38 twist in my 1894 Marlin 44 mag Cowboy.  I believe 1 - 40 was the optimum twist in the old paper patched round ball squirrel guns. 

Ok then, thinking about this some more, I just pulled my SPEER Reloader 10 manual (1979) and there it is.  A .44 Mag load for a speer round ball.  According to the manual, 2.9 grains of Bullseye will deliver a blistering 549 fps.  3.6 grains delivers 566 fps. 

Questions to self:

1.  Where is my squib rod?

2.  Does Speer still make the .433 round ball.

3.  Should this be a paper patch trial.

Where are the experts.  My 1894 has the 24in barrel.  Any guesses on what it will take to exit the barrel?  Could a 1-38 twist modern barrel deliver the accuracy of the patched ball squirrel guns? 

I should stay off this sight.  It is too much fun.

thanks rc

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gunarea posted this 07 January 2011

Hey rhouser

   Not sure if Speer still offers the round ball. Lyman offered moulds for the 44 round ball. Again, I am not sure if they are available. Many years ago I toyed with shooting these balls through my old flattop Ruger. The idea of this came from a Speer loading guide as well but was listed under 44 Russian. I opted to get the Lyman single cavity mould and have it still today. It is relatively easy to reload on my Dillon press once the dies are adjusted correctly. A Lee crimp die is taken out of the cycle when loading the round ball and a standard roll crimp die is used. Rather than change my powder measure, an arbitrary 4.6 gr charge of Red dot is used. Standard 44 mag cases are easier to get than 44 special or 44 Russian and is what I use. While I did use it on smaller steel targets with acceptable accuracy, it doesn't carry much wump. Looking back, I wish I had gotten the two cavity mould. The soft cast balls shoot OK. The Speer balls have much less sprue than the Lyman mould produces. Grinding and filing off the sprue didn't make any appreciable difference, so I don't bother anymore. Just last November I had cast up some to make sure I had some on hand. In a Henry, golden boy rifle, the balls hold pretty good out to fifty yards with the same handgun loading. Using liquid alox and moly coating seems to make them shoot clean enough.      They are fun!                                                                                                                           Roy

Shoot often, Shoot well

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redball 2 posted this 07 January 2011

I have played with round ball in  '06 and 44 mag rurger and a 44 handi rifle

lee makes round ball moulds that fit either a .311 and a double cavity for the 44 at .433

in the '06 it will hold about an inch at 25 yds at 200 yds rthey will not penitrate a inch board.. I was looking something to shoot starlings in trees without endangering people a mile away as the round ball do not a very long max range. the handi rifle has the most sloppy chamber ever but will do about 3 inches at 50 yds.

Frank Marshal wrote quite a lot concerning round balls of course most modern rifles have too fast a twist to be ideal.

the pistol is a lot of fun and as frank Marshal they are not wrist wrenchers.

small charges of pistol powders are apporate. it doesn't take much

Jim Wilcox

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rhouser posted this 08 January 2011

My 1894 Marlin 44 Mag is a 1:38 twist with a 24” barrel. I just ordered 2 boxes of the .433 round balls (speer). Any thoughts on trail boss with this folly? rc

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nimrod posted this 08 January 2011

Have fun post results.

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gunarea posted this 08 January 2011

You go rhouser

   It's good to know Speer still offers the round ball. Your feedback on their performance will be quite interesting, especially to me. If I am being too nosey, I apologize here and now. How much do those factory balls cost? Have you a way to test the factory hardness? Do the modern commercial projectiles come with any data or loading information?  Loading with Trailboss might be just the ticket to eliminating the use of dryer lint as wadding. My small charges of Red dot are very position sensitive. In my quest for accuracy I have orientated sprues in various positions and also swaged them oblong. Nothing conclusive has arisen, now I stuff them in willy nilly. This size ball in combination with a couple of other sizes make for very good homemade buckshot loads into my 12 ga shotgun. While I have shot these balls a lot over a forty year or so span, only targets, water, dirt and air were hit by me. I am confident they would dispatch most small varmit type critters, apparently not by me though. Other than the black powder folks, I thought maybe I was alone in screwing around with these things. Please keep us posted on your observations. Now I gotta go find the thread on 30 cal round ball folly.

                                                                                                                       Roy

Shoot often, Shoot well

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rhouser posted this 08 January 2011

The Speer Balls are in the muzzle loading section at the MIDWAY website. Hornady's are 12.99 per 100. Speers (which I ordered) are 11.29 per hundred. The reason I am kind of interested in this is that I finally may have found a good use for the 1:38 twist that Marlin put on my rifle. (and it's fun) rc

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Ranch Dog posted this 11 January 2011

Okay, got a few minutes to play with this and found myself a Lee .433 Round Ball mold. First step was to find out what the ball weighs so I went to my Cast Bullet BC Estimator software and it calculated it for me, 124-grains, plus a BC and SD.

Next I ran the round ball data through QuickLoad for my 1894P, 44 Mag Guide Gun. I searched for loads that ran no greater than 13.0K PSI so that I could run pure lead, plus a case with a powder density of 50% or greater not to exceed 105% or less. This could be fun!

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gunarea posted this 11 January 2011

Hey Guys

   My Lyman mould throws a 135 gr ball. The alloy I use is my shelf stock which runs 9 bhn as cast and generally up at 11 or 12 after a couple of weeks. It has shown to be slightly softer than #2 lyman and the weights run a bit heavier than predicted using #2 lyman alloy. I will run some through the chrono this Friday providing I'm not too much of a cold weather woose. The estimated weight should be even greater for pure lead. Previous loads were with Red dot, Promo is now being used so I will publish data based upon Promo performance. Round balls have really come into their right with the advent of liquid alox and moly. This is cool that round ball is making such a conversational come back. 

                                                                                                                         Roy  

Shoot often, Shoot well

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Ranch Dog posted this 11 January 2011

Looking forward to the report. What firearms are you shooting the .433 out of Roy?

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rhouser posted this 12 January 2011

Ranch Dog,  I read your old thread and got caught up in it. Darn 1:38 twist ought to be good for something.  :)

I downloaded your Quick Load text file to try to understand what you see. (I have never seen the output of quick load before). Please post what powder and starting points you pick.

Gunarea, do you think I should Alox the speer .433 swaged round balls? Probably wouldn't hurt. You are going to try Promo powder? That is one I don't have.

I talked to an IMR tech about the low end of Trail Boss. I was told there are not quirks at the low end. The minimum safe charge as far as ignition is whatever it takes to get the ball out of the barrel. I am going to try Trail Boss.

My test guns are a Marlin 1894CB  24” bbl 1:38 twist lever gun and a Ruger Vaquero 44mag 5” bbl 1-20 twist. thanks rc

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gunarea posted this 12 January 2011

Hey Fellas

   My old faithful three screw Ruger has, will and does shoot these round balls. The big gun has, little/old, boy recoil and is very pleasant to shoot. It is charged with nearly every 44 cartridge testing I do since it has been with me since the sixties and is my standard. Not running them over a chrono has been an oversight of mine for many years. When I first got the Pact, everything I had loaded was checked just because I had a new chrono. Back then, not having a chronograph was as common as having one now is. There is an option of dragging out my Henry, if rifle data is necessary, but cleaning it sux. 

   Alliant Promo is the frugal shooters substitute for Red dot. The burn rate, gas volume and pressure, matches Red dot. Promo does not run consistant with respect to weight/volume factors and each 8 lb. jug must be very carefully checked in order to maintain load standards. As a large quantity user of Red dot, a substantial dollar saving was worth the extra effort required to make the switch. This powder was introduced to me at the 2000 shot show by an Alliant representative, I have not purchased a caddy of Red dot since.

   Damn, it is 36 degrees outside and I am dragging ass for my usual Wednesday shoot. This reminds me of days gone by when work was the cursed activity of the day. Oh well, a bad day at the range is still better than a good day at work.

                                                                                                                     Roy

Shoot often, Shoot well

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Ed Harris posted this 12 January 2011

In .44 Magnum Marlin with Microgroove barrel I take .457 round balls I cast for my Ruger Old Army, then force them through a Lee .430 sizer, which forms a short cylindrical bearing surface on them, flattens the base and leaves a stubby roundnosed slug. I then tumble this in Lee Liquid Alox and load in .44 Mag cases with 5 grains of Bullseye. Crimp in case with the ball radius exposed and roll crimp into shoulder. Accuracy is MUCH better than using .44 round balls with minimal bearing surface. Velocity about 1000 f.p.s. from a rifle. Effective small game load.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rhouser posted this 13 January 2011

The speer round balls arrived. My speer round balls arn't quite round. Using the knife edge of my calipers I measure high spots out as far as .436 although I can find a .433 radius on every ball measured.

I have aloxed (is that a verb) the whole box of 100 and they are spread out drying now.

I used one ball to slug the cylinders of my vaquero. I needed my brass drift and rubber hammer. The cylinders slug at .4305 with one tight cylinder at something less. I am using a dial caliper so my measurements are what they are. There is a clear compression line on the ball once I pass it through the cylinder. I may slug the bore of the ruger with a ball just to see what kind of markings I am getting. These balls are pure lead so they are soft.

Does anyone see any issues with running the .433 ball into the .430 cylinder throat? I have a lee factory crimp die in my .44 set that will squeeze the loaded ball a little as a final step if I use it.

I guess I should slug one of the balls through my Marlin Barrel as well. I will probably have to steal my ramrod from my BP gun to get the ball down the tube. I may pull the bolt and slug it from the chamber just to get an easier start.

I think I will pull the trigger on the first rounds this afternoon. I have no great expectations (see Mr Harris's remarks above). A round ball may not do much but be fun. Fun is good.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 January 2011

I see no problems with using the .433 ball in your Ruger or Marlin. In the .44 Magnum case you will have alot of airspace, so you may need to use as much as 5 grs. of Bullseye just to get uniform ignition. Red Dot, 700-X, TiteGroup or Clays would also work well. I would go ahead with the snappy 5 grain load, and reduce only if it leads heavily. With the LLA you should be OK.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rhouser posted this 13 January 2011

Mr Harris, part of this started when I found a 44 Mag load for a speer round ball published in my SPEER Reloader 10 manual (1979). According to the manual, 2.9 grains of Bullseye will deliver a blistering 549 fps. 3.6 grains of Unique will deliver 566 fps.

I defer to your real world experience versus the old Speer Manual.

I am interested in using Trail Boss in this application. I talked to IMR Techs because they always show a 60% case fill as minimum charge. I was told that the only ignition based minimum for the powder in a 44 mag (or any straight walled pistol cartridge) is what amount it took to clear the barrel. (The 60% charge weight prevents unnoticed double charges).

Next post should include outcomes.

rc

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Ed Harris posted this 13 January 2011

No experience here with Trail Boss, but the 60% charge should light off OK.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rhouser posted this 14 January 2011

Well, under the “what the heck rule", I elected to use 2 grains of Trail Boss and my aloxed round balls for a first test. I love it when I get the result I was looking for right off the bat. Ok, so I sneak out into the back yard when the neighbors are not out just to see if it will clear the bore and just hope the muzzle blast is what I have estimated. (I've oops'd on that before with a 380 and 2 grains of BE from a short barreled pistol.)

I set up a card board box in front of my pair of 20 inch splitting stumps that stay pushed together. These form a perfect vertical V trap. These stumps sit infront of 3 racks deep of firewood. The ball is going no where.

Report was like an authoritative pellet gun but without the supersonic crack. Recoil felt more like a slingshot push than a rifle shot. The bullet thwapping the box made as much noise as the muzzle report. The lead bullet passed through both sides of the cardboard box and made a shallow dent in the stump then fell on the ground. Too funny.

The ball is not deformed but is burnished where it hit the stump. I really don't see much in the way of rifling cuts in the ball. I will have to look closer.

I only had loaded a couple of these, but, they do clear the barrel and they don't have any apparent report.

2 grains of Trailboss with a 121 grain speer .433 roundball and a Remington Large pistol primer will definitely clear a 24” Marlin barrel with ease.

I need to get out to where I have 10 yards and see if they go to the same point of aim at this velocity.

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gunarea posted this 14 January 2011

Hey Fellas

   After it warmed up a little this morning I broke out the chrono and fired enough round ball cartridges to fill up its little memory. Today the cartridges seemed to fit more tightly than I recall on past outings, maybe the cold.

   The 134 gr projectile is loaded into a W-W super, 44 magnum case along with 4.6 grs of Alliant Promo and enough dryer lint to make sure the charge stays in position. Standard CCI large pistol primers are used and the cartridge is assembled through the use of a Dillon RL 300 press.     

   A Pact chronograph checked for velocity over a 24” trap. It was 51 degrees, relative humidity was at 35% and there was a light breeze. It was a beautiful clear blue sky on this cold ass morning. First shot fired was to make sure everything was performing as it should be, which it was, then another 21 shots followed.

   Average velocity 926.9 fps, extreme spread 40.4 fps, standard deviation 20.2 fps

   After reading Ranch Dogs projected values, I got out my micrometer, then began weighing over fifty of the as cast round balls. Diameter is .434 and weight averaged 134.7 gr on an Ohler digital electronic scale. Michael, the weight ran very consistant and my alloy is not pure lead. There is a small protrusive bump on the opposite side of the sprue and the sprue is much larger than what is present from any of my other moulds. These two protrusions along with my tendency to cast hot is what I suspect brings the weight up. A picture is in order but my digital camera does not have a macro and makes lousy close up pictures.

   I was a bit surprised at the velocity deviation, the same powder charge under any of the four other 44 slugs I cast, run single digit values. Due to the large amount of empty space in the case, I use dryer lint as wadding and suspect this variable of composition and quantity may be the culprit. Another con to shooting these in a 44 mag case is that they don't produce enough pressure to properly expand the case enough to seal the chamber. All the spent cases are covered in smudge and it gets on your fingers, shirt, pants, chrono sheet, light baffle, face, camera, pencil, doorknob, soap, towel. Being a guy, I didn't notice until my wife pointed this out to me.

   Thank you so much for promting me to do this research, it was both enlightening and fun. This was something I should have done many years ago. I am anxious to see your results of more playing with this fun bullet.

                                                                                                                        Roy

 

post script;  Thanks Michael, for getting me past the fear of ruining my micro groove with the use of cast bullets. My old 336C has fired all seven of the different 38 cal bullets I cast and has done it extremely well. I see no need to ever again buy a bullet for my Marlin.  

Shoot often, Shoot well

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rhouser posted this 18 January 2011

Range report Speer .433 round balls, Rem LP primers, 44 Mag Starline and RP mixed brass and Trail Boss. 24” Marlin 1894 and 5 1/2 in Ruger. 2 gr Trail Boss - Cleared rifle and did not penetrate Cardboard Box at 10 feet. No report from 24” barrel. 7 yards grouped about 3” but not what I want. Too worried about squibs.

3.2 gr Trail boss. More authority. Grouped well at 7 yards and grouped about 3” at 25 yards from the rifle. Had sparks post report from unburned powder continuing to ignite. Too weird.

4.5 grains Trail Boss. This shot pretty well at 25 yards from the rifle. 3 out of 6 touching - 2 out about 2 inches and the last one about 3 inches.

4.5 behaved well from the pistol at 7 yards.

I don't like Trail Boss. It SMELLS bad to me. Lots of smoke. All in all, I want to retry this with Red Dot.

I think Mr Harris's call for 5 gr of Red Dot may turn out right. I won't get to try this again till later in the week.

I believe I am going to find a good round ball load for the rifle at least for 25 yards.

thanks rc

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Ranch Dog posted this 18 January 2011

Thanks for this report. I'm working on my 45 Colt bullet right now which includes the pressure testing and then I'm going to mess around this. Still haven't figure out why I want to shoot round balls but... I guess you do not need a reason for everything!

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