38 Special/200gr LRN

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  • Last Post 09 January 2023
Clubkey posted this 18 November 2010

Anyone have recipes for this combination using Bullseye powder?

And/or 231, Unique?

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32ideal posted this 18 November 2010

Sorry Clubkey never used any of the powders you ask about but did load for the Lyman 358430 195gr bullet, my best load was 5.3grs of AA #5 powder, small pistol primer OAL of 1.545” in Federal 38 Special Match cases.

Was not very fast, only about 750fps from my 4” S&W M10HB Revolver but pretty accurate at 7 yards, tried this load out of my M36 2” and it was exciting.

If I still had the mould I would send it off and get it hollow pointed to reduce the weight to about 175-180gr with a large deep HP cavity and cast from 20:1 alloy or softer so it would expand at the low velocities. Always liked the heavy bullets, went on to the Lyman 358429 SWC that weighed about 172grs when cast from straight WW alloy from the 1970's.

I believe there is data in the older Lyman loading manuals if you can find them, or maybe some else here on the website can help you out!

:}

32ideal 

 

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dimebox posted this 18 November 2010

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook dated 1973 lists a 195 gr. bullet with Bullseye powder starting at 2.2 grs for 580 fps up to 3.3 grs for 770 fps  15,400 c.u.p.

It also lists Unique starting at 3.4 grs.for 650 fps up to 4.5 grs. for 830 fps 15,600 c.u.p.

Ken Waters discusses the 200 gr. “Super Police” factory load in a Sept. 1966 Pet Loads article.  He didn't give much load data in those early articles but he does indicate that 2.7 grains of Bullseye is a good place to start in seeking an accurate load.  This seemed to be the case regardless of which weight bullet was used.

The “Super Police” factory load was listed as 730 fps.

I hope this helps. 

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argie1891 posted this 18 November 2010

are you using this in the 38 special or 38 S&W?? I have used quite a few in the 38S&W with very good results. the Victory model really likes this bullet. I am not an expert but i think that heavy bullet would have a lot of knock down power. i dont have data for the special but if you are shoting the short case i can give you some of the loads i have used. joe gifford aka argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Clubkey posted this 18 November 2010

All very useful information so far, thank you Gentlemen.

Argie, this will be used in 38 Special (S&W Mod 642 and Colt PPS).

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tturner53 posted this 19 November 2010

dimebox wrote: My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook dated 1973 lists a 195 gr. bullet with Bullseye powder starting at 2.2 grs for 580 fps up to 3.3 grs for 770 fps  15,400 c.u.p.

It also lists Unique starting at 3.4 grs.for 650 fps up to 4.5 grs. for 830 fps 15,600 c.u.p.

Ken Waters discusses the 200 gr. “Super Police” factory load in a Sept. 1966 Pet Loads article.  He didn't give much load data in those early articles but he does indicate that 2.7 grains of Bullseye is a good place to start in seeking an accurate load.  This seemed to be the case regardless of which weight bullet was used.

The “Super Police” factory load was listed as 730 fps.

I hope this helps.  Welcome to the forum DB. That is the best first post I've seen. I have found the 358429 to be accurate in everything I've tried it in, but I'm using SR4756. Got a jug for free.

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gunarea posted this 19 November 2010

Hey Clubkey

    Alas, my experience does not include Bullseye as well, however the Lee 200 gr bullet is used by myself and others here at our club. This weight slug allows the 38 to be competitive with the big boys when shooting in large caliber class. One shooter in particular does use Unique and I will ask him his load next Wednesday. Large caliber class is restricted to velocities under 850 fps so you can be sure these loads are running under that mark.

   Red dot loading is at 2.7 gr with a very light crimp for the Uberti rolling block, 3.2 gr for use in either a S&W model 66 or a new model Ruger Blackhawk. A moderate crimp is needed in the revolvers as they do buck a bit with the heavy slug. For oal  length considerations, no die change was made from the settings with which was used to seat a Lyman 160 gr cowboy bullet. My specific alloy yields a 209 gr cast out at .3585 and used as is with 60% to 70% of lube capacity fill. Lee factory crimp die.

   Promo  is now my exclusive substitute for any and all former Red dot loads. It is my high quantity consumption and frugal nature, ( sounds better than tight wad or cheap skate) that brought me to make the switch. Alliant is up front with information concerning the inconsistency of Promo so I will refrain from giving factual loading data. The loading I do with Promo varies from keg to keg and must be dealt with individually. Even kegs with identical lot numbers have shown me velocity variations. I am now into my eleventh eight pound keg. This being said, Promo performs as a less expensive clone to Red dot.

   If it is of concern or interest, I will chrono some stuff from this most recently opened keg of Promo and give you specific load weights. As inferred, I would be reluctant to accept or divulge across the board loading data for Promo. In the mean time, I hope someone can give you the specific data you have asked for.

                                                                                                                          Roy 

Shoot often, Shoot well

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Ed Harris posted this 19 November 2010

Clubkey wrote: Anyone have recipes for this combination using Bullseye powder?

And/or 231, Unique?

2.7 grs. of Bullseye chronographs 640 f.p.s. from my 4 inch Ruger Police Service Six using a 200-gr. FN bullet seated to 1.55” OAL.  Don't exceed 3 grs. of Bullseye to stay within standard pressure.  To stay within +P limits you could go up to 3.2 grs. of Bullseye in a heavy frame .38 Special.    

3.5 of W231 or 4 grs. of Unique or PB should be within standard pressure.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Clubkey posted this 19 November 2010

Gunarea, thank you sir for additional enlightenment concerning the 200gr bullet in the 38 Special. I'm very surprised that with all the interest in this load that there isn't more information about it on the Internet.

I'm not a bullet caster myself, but I have found a source for the 200gr bullet on the Internet, http://www.westernbullet.com/ly3gr13.html>http://www.westernbullet.com/ly3gr13.html However, they are out of stock at the present time, but I do have an email in with them requesting when they will have them back in stock.

Thanks again Gents for all the excellent information.

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Clubkey posted this 19 November 2010

Morning Mr. Harris!

Thank you, I knew you'd jump in here sooner or later and I certainly appreciate your help.

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Clubkey posted this 20 November 2010

For anyone interested, I received an email from Western Bullet and they will have a batch of the 200gr. bullets made up by the end of next week.

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Clubkey posted this 09 December 2010

For anyone interested, I received my batch of bullets from Western Bullets yesterday. They appear to be of excellent quality and measure right at .358 at the flat base and weigh and average of 196.1 grains. I do not know the BHN of these bullets, but they do seem to be quite hard.

Being as how it's 10 degrees and the snow is falling pretty hard outside I think I'll spend the day inside reloading some of my new bullets for testing when the weather breaks.

Thank you all for your helpful advice and suggestions.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

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2frogs posted this 03 December 2022

Lee manual has loads listed for 200 gr cast bullets.

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Eutectic posted this 03 December 2022

I had maybe ~300 Winchester factory lead 200 grain bullets. Found cheap in Bob's bargain box because no one wanted them.

3.0 grains Bullseye worked nice in the 38 Special and my Combat Masterpiece liked them. The Chief Special, my carry gun, was another matter. The recoil would unlock the cylinder cause it to miss-index. Sometimes the cylinder would flop out. One of my friends observed the little Smith did not recoil as much as it "backed off the bullet" 

Have fun wink

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Ed Harris posted this 05 January 2023

Fouling Shot No. 275 p. 9 has .38 S&W data 2.1 grains Bullseye for 600 fps. from 4" revolver

Fouling Shot No. 277 p. 10 has .38 Special data 3 grains Bullseye 640 fps, 3.3 grains 720 fps. from 4" gun

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 05 January 2023

The purpose of the 200 grain load was to "knock down" the opponent and deliver a killing blow. All of our 21st century "knowledge" has little to do with the original load. 

If you read the reports, the 158 grains round nose was very bad about shooting through someone and hitting a person behind them. Plus it did not knock them out of the fight. The function of the 200 grain load was to knock them out of the fight so you could shoot them two or three times more. 

This shooting to "stop" is a modern 1970's political thing. Before 1940 it was shooting to kill the bad guy. 

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Ed Harris posted this 05 January 2023

Chas. Adkins once wrote that the 200-grain Super Police would indeed shoot through a German army winter overcoat and "take the fight out of Fritz." He felt it as good as the .45 ACP.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 06 January 2023

Chronograph data for factory 200-grain .38 Special:

Revolver barrel length...........2"............4"............6"

WRA Super Police 1930s......630 fps...688 fps...741 fps

Rem-UMC 1950s...................627 fps...702 fps...747 fps

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio the slim one posted this 06 January 2023

I am playing with 200 grainers  in   357 revolvers  and  carbines . using around 4 grains  of powders  comparable  to Unique  and 38 sp  cases .  No signs of high pressures  and decent  plinking accuracy . 

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tomme boy posted this 07 January 2023

Lee 1st edition shows a 200gr lead bullet with bullseye. 2.8gr-3.0grs. Unique 3.3-3.6  hp38/231 powder is 3.2grs thats it

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358156hp posted this 08 January 2023

It looks to me like all that bullet encroachment into the case is limiting this project to wadcutter velocities. Incidentally, the powder charges shown above are pretty consistent with wadcutter loads as well.

 

OP- are you looking at using this load for deer next year, or is it just for plinking?

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