Using petroleum based bore cleaners in BP barrels

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  • Last Post 24 May 2011
Tom Acheson posted this 09 October 2010

Can anyone explain why some BP cartridge shooters maintain the impression that the use of petroleum based bore cleaners/solvents in the barrel of a rifle that shoots black powder is undesirable? Jeff Bowles told me his Voodoo lube does not use any petro ingredients which is helpful.

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tturner53 posted this 09 October 2010

Petroleum based solvents work too good. A muzzleloader should be 'seasoned' like a good old cast iron frying pan. Lots of obvious benefits to that. Hot water is sufficient to remove bp residue. Petro based solvents remove the 'seasoning', leaving bare metal, then you're starting all over. But then, there's a lot of ways to skin this cat and if it works for you it's all good. Crisco is your friend here.

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bsdger45 posted this 09 October 2010

In my opinion, BP residue will dissolve in water and will not dissolve in oil based cleaners. I like a 1:10 mix of soluble cutting oil. Has water, detergents, oil, and rust inhibitors. Isn't it called moose milk or something similar?

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JetMech posted this 09 October 2010

BP residue is normally water-soluble.  Ballistol and water works great in removing BP fouling. The thing is, mixing BP fouling with petroleum based products tends to make the fouling non-water soluble and kind of gooey. I've found this to be true using mineral-based lubes in a 44 cap & ball revolver way back when.

So the thinking is that residue from the bore cleaner will change the fouling and if you're using a blow tube instead of cleaning between shots, you'll see a quicker degredation in accuracy.

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oldhoss posted this 09 October 2010

I agree with Mr. Turner, hot water is all you need to clean black powder fouling. After drying lube the bore and wipe down the outside with some kind of organic oil or grease, crisco, olive oil, etc. If you keep your bore seasoned it will always clean up easily. This is all contingent on the use of real black powder only. I can't speak for all the substitute powders out there as I have no experience with them.

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tturner53 posted this 10 October 2010

It is called 'moose milk' and works great, but is not necessary at the home range where you'll be cleaning up soon with hot water. Out in the boonies I keep either a small bottle of moose milk(water soluble machinist's oil and water) or TC “Number 13” bp solvent for wetting a cleaning patch to run down the bore. You can do a fair job of wiping the bore in the field with just wet patches, no pouring water out there. Then a cleaning patch lubed with your favorite patch lube. I mix the TC goop that comes in a yellow tube (1,000?) 50/50 with Crisco, and use that to lube my pillow ticking patches too. Make sure you have a patch screw to get the cleaning patch out if you lose it in there. My muzzleloaders are all over 25 yrs. old, shot plenty, and not a spec of rust. I hate rust.   EDIT; I have had everything go wrong that can with a muzzleloader, I think. Go prepared for a lost cleaning patch, a stuck ball over no powder charge, and a stuck ramrod. It will happen. Twice in my life I have had my gun go 'pffft' when I managed to find the buck of a lifetime, like magazine cover buck. Do your homework, everything goes great, get sloppy and ....    EDIT #2 I just reread the OP. Oops! Bp cartridge gun is a little different, but bore seasoning is probably the same. Sorry, I get carried away talking about muzzleloader hunting, lots of good memories.

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Mnshooter posted this 11 October 2010

I had problems with a 45-70 load due to the use of ALox in the lube, whcih is petroleum based. The fouling got very hard at the last 10 inches of barrel and the gun would shoot about 10 inches off after a couple of shots. Anymore and one might not hit the paper. Introduyction of petroleum based products do that. As to solvents, they do and do not work. It takes a great deal of solvent to get rid of all the BP crud in the barrel. Some however will wash a barrel out with normal BP solvents and then use something like Hoppes #9 to get rid of the carbons. If the barrel is properly cleared out before shooting it would not matter. I like to flash a small amount of powder to clear out oils and then do a small cleaning job to clean out the BP with water or a good BP solvent and make sure the barrel is dry. Using this methiod I ahve carried the same load for a few days with excellent ignition. I use flintlocks.

Mnshooter

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BerdanIII posted this 12 October 2010

I personally am envious of how easy it is to clean up after blackpowder. A BPCR silhouette shooter told me he could get his rifle clean in four patches and proceeded to prove it. Three patches wet with his special brew of a bottle of Mean Green window cleaner with vinegar in a gallon of water and one dry patch. The dry patch had no fouling on it at all.

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rmrix posted this 19 October 2010

Forgive me if I sound like I am chest pounding but I will give you a short background that makes the bases for my opinion.

I shoot BPCR competition. Silhouette, Mid-Range and Creedmoor. I have been head long into it for a great many years. I shoot lots of matches each month and shoot all the national and international matches I can make it to and have tens of thousands of rounds down range. I was the 2002 World Creedmoor champion And the 2009 NRA Creedmoor National Champion (Big Deal, I put my pants on like everyone else)

(Creedmoor is 800y, 900y and 1000y target match shooting)

This is what I would offer.

Clean the Black Powder fouling out of your barrel. Use anything that pleases you. Water is fine. Water with some kind of soap in it is fine too.

When the shooting is done for the day OR you feel the need to (between relays in a match maybe) Go after the bore with a good bore solvent and very tight patches. I use Ed's Red. Ed's Red will pull out the lead. Lots of other products are used by competitors. The goal here is to clean ALL the other crap out of the barrel down to the steel and leave some protection in there.

I live in Colorado and shoot mostly in the west. It is dry here. I used this same system in 2006 in Cape Town where it is very humid.

I never have rust. I never take the Ed's Red out of the barrel before starting to shoot again. It works for me. YMMV

You might want to do something a little differently. Everyone does. This is a good place to start and then change it to what every you like.

-I learn something form everyone I meet

Michael Rix

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Daryl S posted this 02 December 2010

Yes - hot water works - but cold water is safer as it will not cause flash rusting of the barrel.

Cold water cuts BP fouling just fine by itself - there is no need for soap - many soaps contain salt or corrosives/acids, which is not good.

By itself, black powder fouling is inert - it will not corrode, will not rust - by itself.

Black powder fouling needs moisture before it will cause oxidation to metal - until the introduction of moisture in some form, it remains inert.

 Moisture in the form of humidity over about 35% will do the trick, as will straight water or water based solvents to cause oxidation - ie: rusting over time.  Even with the addition of moisture or water,  black powder fouling is NOT corrosive - it causes “oxidation” of the surface ie: rust. Rust is not good, but it isn't as bad as corrosive chemicals.  Chlorates are corrosive. There are no chlorates in real black powder.

 The prevention of rusting is why we clean our barrels, locks and stocks, then dry them, then put on a rust preventor - ie; some sort of oil that has proven to work for us.

Hot water, ie: water that heats the barrel and causes rapid drying due to the heat, can flash-rust the barrel before an oiled patch can be applied. Flash rusting is accumulative - over time, it becomes pits, which become deeper.

Cold water gives a lot of time to try, takes more patches (NO MATTER) and once dry gives a lot of time to oil the barrel prior to oxidation of the surface. The heat of hot water promotes oxidation - probably from the very moisture in the air - I don't know, only that it happens and happens in some barrel steels more often and faster than in others.  Damascus and 12L14 steels are especially vulnerable, I believe.

My friend, who'd had a 6 bore double ball and shot gun re-furbished and re-proofed by Holland and Holland, received back with the gun, a letter detailing their recommendation for cleaning it and all the rest of his black powder double guns, rifle and shotgun alike. I read the letter.  Their recommendation was cold water only primarily due to the flash rusting of the tubes when they are cleaned with hot water. 

After drying with soft clean patches, they said to use a water displacing lube like WD40. For years, I used Amsoil MP the best water displacer I've ever seen, but lately maybe the last 20 years, I've been using WD4 as MP is no longer sold here. After drying, I flush the barrels with WD40 spray until it runs out the vents or nipple seats, then put a dry patch over the muzzle, then the jag and shove hard, blasting the WD40 oout the vent or nipple seat. I run that patch up and down a number of times, then use it to wipe down the outside of the tube or tubes. For me, in this area of BC, that's all the rust preventative needed. A more moist climate might need something more - maybe not. Our yearly average humidity here is 50%. I've never rusted a bore using this H&H's method of cleaning. I buy WD40 by the gallon & use a quart size spray bottle - it's cheap.

Been in the BP game quite heavily since around 1972 and have done a crap-load of shooting the stuff ever since. I've probably averaged over 20 pounds of black powder a year since about 1974. You get used to the stuff and pick up some hints along the way about cleaning, shooting and loading it both ctg. and ML.

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codarnall posted this 12 December 2010

Chemically water does the trick as earlier posts indicate. I think anything beyond that is voodoo. The only thing I know that chews up carbon is Chromic Acid, a very strong oxidizer. --- Oh, and everything else too.

Charlie

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Daryl S posted this 20 December 2010

I should also add - the only reason there are BP cleaning products on the market, is because the company making them or merely selling them, can talk people will buy them.

They are NOT on the market because they are needed, they are on the market to make money for some company who is paying wages to employees who dreamup things to sell to people who read and follow advertizing campaigns. That is called marketing. The more cheaply it can be made, the better the advertising hype, the more money can be made. Take Bore Butter for instance - do a chem analysis on it sometime - oil of wntergreen and lip balm.

They will tell you their product is necessary to get your gun clean - they are lying to get you to spend your money on their product.

Petrolium products do not effectively soften or mix with black powder fouling. A water based lube or fluid is necessary to effectively soften and mix with the fouling - water alone is THE BP 'solvent' as it does not contain any chemicals. It softens and lifts the fouling form the steel's surface.

The addition of chemicals, soaps, oils or other products costs money - WATER is all that is needed - water is CHEAP. Why spend money on cleaning products if FREE water is all that's needed. It doesn't even have to be heated - as long as it isn't frozen, it will work- cold or tp cool is best as that won't cause flash rusting. Flash rusting is accumulative - oh, I aleady said that.

I've never 'seasoned' a barrel - I clean them to steel every time they are loaded - with tight ball/patch combinations. There is no buildup of fouling - ever - in the bore. There is a buildup in the breech, ie: the powder chamber area, as that area only gets cleaned after all the shooting is done for the day. Doesn't matter if I shot 20 shots on a short trail walk, or 85 to 100 shots on our home trail walk, no cleaning or wiping, not even a single patch down and out is necessary while the shooting is going on. The 100th shot is as accurate and loads as easily as the first. Because the bore does not change condition shot to shot, the SD's are under 10fps. The bore remains consistant. I win or place in more events than not, so perhaps I do something right - maybe?

Black powder barrels do not need to be seasoned unless you are cooking eggs in them without oil - in my humble opinion. Seasoning was invented as a methodology, almost a religion, to get you to buy their product. Seasoning was invented about the time Bore Butter came on the market - SEASON your barrel, buy this product because you have to season your barrel. That's bull. Seasoning was never before mentioned anywhere in black powder shooting - not until TC came on the market with Bore Butter. - oil of wintergreen & lip balm - oh yeah - said that.

There are a lot of opinons out there - some of the stuff works for those who use it, some of it works, but not well due to not knowing any different and some doesn't as it's only something someone has made up.

Many have been told that muzzleloading barrels foul, become difficult to load and you have to clean or wipe the barrels of a ML, often - every 10 shots, every 3 shots, every shot - this 'statement of fact' varies. It doesn't have to be true for you.

One of the best ways to weed out info, is to ask --- “how often do you have to wipe the bore while shooting for a whole day at the range.” If the person says NEVER - then, they have something to offer that could be of valuable to you in your shooting. They already know how to load their gun properly.

I don't have all the answers, but I have some. I've made shooting MLoaders a science - for me, studied it and it's methods of shooting and loading for almost 40 years - I'm not just a casual or sometime. Of cours,e all of this is my opinion - it might work for you, it might not.

If it doesn't, there is a reason - not hype, it's fixable. Please tell me and we'll get through the problems, whether it's the ball size, chosen patch material, crown condition, whatever is preventing you from loving this sport.

 

[email protected]

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gnoahhh posted this 20 December 2010

I too use water. Not too hot, not too cold- about what you would want coming out of your shower head. In fact, that's how I clean my guns after a day of shooting. I take the barrels into the shower with me and clean them while cleaning myself. Hop out and towel off, then run a few dry patches through the bore. An oily patch to prevent rust (in the barrel that is!), and I'm finished.

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Daryl S posted this 04 April 2011

tturner53 wrote: Petroleum based solvents work too good. A muzzleloader should be 'seasoned' like a good old cast iron frying pan. Lots of obvious benefits to that. Hot water is sufficient to remove bp residue. Petro based solvents remove the 'seasoning', leaving bare metal, then you're starting all over. But then, there's a lot of ways to skin this cat and if it works for you it's all good. Crisco is your friend here.

I disagree intensly - petrolium products do not disolve black powder fouling is why petrolium produces should not be used with black powder fired firearms - they are useless for this task.

As well, Black powder barrels do not have to be 'seasoned' any more than any other barrel - except when shooting moly in a modern vermin gun - a moly coating is required to consistant results.

 "Seasoning a gun barrel” is the verbal invention of a company who wants to sell you their chap stick/wintergreen oil bore butter concoction.  It is the invention of an overly imaginative advertizing agent. 

 

Clean your barrels to steel or you are not getting all the fouling out. Water is all that's needed. No high priced solvents - use Neetsfoot oil for a patch lube for hunting - buy it by the gallon if you like. Do not use Neetsfoot compound - that is synthetic. Trackofthewolf Mink Oil is also a good hunting lube.

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codarnall posted this 04 April 2011

Gotta have a gimmick!

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shjoe posted this 04 April 2011

i always bring a squirt bottle with a mix of water and murphy's oil soap in it. after any range session, while at the range, i rinse out the barrel and black powder shell casings. it cleans them fairly well enough leaving a light soap film on everything until i can get home for a more indepth and proper cleaning with either warm water or good ol GI bore cleaner. a few passes with a patch soaked in murphy's mixture does a fine job on muzzleloaders also. i use a “bore butter” mix (just my home made bullet lube diluted with olive oil)to protect and lube the bore and use Ed's Red to protect the outside. no rust or issues.

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 April 2011

When I started my BPCR experience, my bore cleaning “solvent” was some liquid detergent soap mixed with water, followed by a couple of patches with denatured alcohol to try to displace any residual water and finished up with a coating of oil.

Along the way I've been reading the two forums that focus on BPCR and following the country-wide BPCR silhouette match results for the last 2-years. Some names surface as frequent top scorers. Then one of the threads was asking the question what is a good bore cleaner? One of the respondents names was one that I recognized from the top placing silhouette match results shooters. He said that he had tried most of the commercial cleaners but only found one that was acceptable because it was the only one that removed all of the BP carbon deposits. That  cleaner is Butch's Bore Shine for BP. I've been using it for the last 3-months and it only takes 3-4 patches before they start coming out clean. But...for fouling control I do wipe the bore between each shot with a water/NAPA water soluble oil mixture. The powder is Swiss 1 1/2. When all done cleaning, Kroil is used to coat the bore.

FWIW

Tom

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JetMech posted this 07 April 2011

Tom,

Between shots, do you use 1 wet patch followed by a couple dry patches?

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 April 2011

Hi Bill,

When I went to my first match, I was doing that. One of the old timers walked-up and said why run the dry patch? Of course I said it seemed logical. He suggested I look around. Only 2 people were blowing and the rest (14-15) were wiping. And everyone that was wiping was only using the single wet patch. He was spotting for me (I think he had a mission to convince me) and said , OK use the wet/dry patch method on the first bank of pigs (300-yards) and do the single wet patch on the second bank of 5 pigs. The scores were 2 and 4 hits.

Yep, a very brief test and I was at only my first match. But I've stayed with it since then. But I'd be interested to learn what the 2 bore conditions are and how that influences accuracy, if at all.

Tom

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JetMech posted this 07 April 2011

Tom Acheson wrote: I'd be interested to learn what the 2 bore conditions are and how that influences accuracy, if at all. I would be too, Tom. The objective is to obtain a consistent bore condition for every shot. Maybe the wet/dry method leaves some residue that is harder than that left after just a wet patch. The harder residue have damage the bullet slightly while the wet residue is simply pushed out of the bore.

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 April 2011

Bill,

Your postulation sounds reasonable. Along those lines of post firing residue....

My barrel is a Badger 1:16 twist for .40-70 SS. I started out sizing bullets at .410” just following the old CB rule of sizing .001” to .002” over bore dia. But one of Paul Matthews books and my own subsequent 200-meter group testing showed that Paul's observation seemed correct.

He said that the bullet should be sized at or just under the bore dimension for BP. He didn't say if he was wiping or blowing but his thoughts were that for BP there is so much crud left after each shot that the bullet has to “plow its way” through. making this residue consistent the full length of the bore by wiping each time provides a common condition for each bullet to negotiate and reduces the inconsistency that blowing introduces. We don't do it the same every time. And we are just influencing the chamber area so that we can insert the next round.

I have another range test coming up with my new Paul Jones Money bullet (416 grains in 16:1) where I'll be trying the 16:1 vs. 20:1 alloy. The Brooks Creedmore mould I have preferred the 20:1 and .408” in my .40-65 (Badger 1:16 twist). Other Money bullet users have reported that 16:1 is better for reducing bullet nose “slump". My mv is about 1327 so maybe faster bullets with that nose shape suffer from the slump more. But look at a Creedmore nose...lots of bullet mass out front. Wouldn't that be more susceptible to slumping? Oh well...

Tom

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