concealed carry with cast

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  • Last Post 10 December 2010
Vassal posted this 04 September 2010

Hey guys. Its been awhile since I've been in the forum. as some of you may have read I won't be able to make it to the regionals in KC this year. I've been trying to get ready for so long now:vio: But it looks like next year will have to suffice.

I wanted to ask about Concealed Carry. I am considering getting a bitty gun of some sort and a permit. Just out of curiosity I wanted to ask other CBA's who carry, about the type of tiny guns they carry and about those who carry cast bullet handloads. I have heard MANY times that any handload will set you up for trouble in court if you have to use your gun, BUT I read an article in Handloader which “debunked” that myth.

Nothin' too serious just thought it might be interesting to see how many carry with cast.:showdown: 

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Dale53 posted this 04 September 2010

My daily carry is an S&W Model 642 with Crimson Trace #305 grips (the long grips with a covered back strap). The grips allow me a full “handle” with the “rather brisk” +P loads. My chosen load is factory 158 gr FBI load (soft lead hollow point). This load has an excellent reputation in actual use for self defense.

I think the concern is overblown on using handloads for self defense. In the area that I live, I have had contact with the legal community for many, many years (I am a retired Major Case Claims Rep for a large company). A good friend is an actively practicing criminal att'y. At any rate, I, personally, would not be too concerned about what you shoot someone with, the REAL concern is whether or not the shooting will be “justified” by the authorities. That is the REAL question.

If it is a “good shoot” then the ammo will not likely play much part.

On the other hand, I am not suggesting that anyone else follow my lead. Your day in court will NOT be fun, regardless, if you are charged. A perfectly “good shoot” will definitely be followed by a civil lawsuit even if you are exonerated by the police. Shouldn't be, but “there it is"...

Dale53

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RicinYakima posted this 04 September 2010

Dale's point is excellent. Either it was a “good shoot” or it wasn't. In my state, you will need at least $25,000 to defend yourself in a Civil suit, because you will be sued for “excessive force” almost always.

S&W 633 in 32 H&R Magnum with #311316 @ 925 f/s chrnographed from the 1 7/8” barrel.

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corerf posted this 04 September 2010

My take is, shoot a JHP and understand that you buy one box per lifetime. I don't want any of my handloads going thru the wimpy human body due to better bullet design (cast that is) and doing damage to a wall, dog or other human.

A human is easy to kill with a bullet. Blow an organ up and make some trauma and it's done. Not many folks make it far with a 125gr XTP in them. When your lung is on a wall or street corner, after being vacuumed out of you, it's hard to fight back. I would think that it would take some doing to stop over-penetration, like a lyman devastator type design.

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RicinYakima posted this 04 September 2010

For what I carry, I worry more about under penetration rather than over penetration. Having worked the streets for 28 years and through two drug wars in the '80's and '90's, here is my most likely assailant: 16 -24 YOM from 5'8” tall weighting 200 to 300 pounds with a big belly. He will be wearing a leather coat, one or two wool shirts and have his arms, hand and weapon in front of his body. In his pockets will be cell phones and MP3 players and back up weapons. He has been using meth or cocaine/pot for several days. He will be with three others. He will also be turned 30 degrees away from his strong side.

We make our own choices, and my choice is based on my experience.

FWIW, Ric

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corerf posted this 04 September 2010

Ric,

Point taken. I don't think about people dressed or wired. I still think a human is as naked as a deer. I need to think about human targets completely.

Thank You.

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Clod Hopper posted this 04 September 2010

I think the biggest concern with hand loads is if they let you down. I am always experimenting with light cast bullet loads in the .45 Colt. They sometimes go “poof.” If I get one of those by mistake, bad things could happen. I recently discovered that my Lee auto-disc has a problem throwing consistent charges. I fixed the problem, but there may some left I haven't found yet. In Illinois, you can only have a cased gun in the vehicle, no canceled carry, yet. Therefore, if I take a gun for defense in a vehicle, its a big one. I take a Glock 21 with Federal .45 Hydroshocks and/or a rifle.

Dale M. Lock

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Vassal posted this 04 September 2010

Thanks for the responses. I do NOT have a carry permit right now, But after I read the Article in Handloader (which stated that handloads were not a legal burdon) I switched my home defense pistol - colt officers model 38 with W231 and Lyman devestators, and my car pistol - Berretta Mini cougar 8040 with AutoComp and RCBS 401-180 RNFP, to handloads. I keep putting off sending those two molds to Erik at Hollowpoint service, but I plan on getting some good pins for them and continuing to use them both. Without Children or visitors it does no harm to leave a revolver loaded, and the Berretta will remain my full size gun. When I get a license I will get some sort of pocket pistol also, 32 or 380.

the thread has entered into the enough penetration vs over penetration debate, which is something I struggle with. My first notion is to use lightly penetrating bullets as to reduce the chance of collateral damge -I.E. 135JHP's in 40SW and the Devestator in 38sp/9mm. But then arguments like Ric's come along and I don't know what to think. I'd sure hate to send one through a wall into an unintended target, in the heat of the moment, BUT I'd likely despise even worse knowing my family got hurt because I merely ripped up someones leather jacket before getting shot or stabbed.

Thats why I hope to get a good balance between the two with some custom pins from HP service.  EDIT:   I also hand weigh VERY carefully each piece of defense ammo.

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Brodie posted this 04 September 2010

Lawyers being what they are, and as many liberal no-think judges as have been appointed to the bench, if the DA wants your hide he will get it.  See The State of Arizona VS. Fish.  That being said : if you shoot an innocent bystander by accident whether with a pass through or straight on your a$$ is grass and they is the lawn mower.  I personally  considder overpenetration in light of where I am, what my background may possibly be, and what I may have to shoot.  ie. If I am going in the forest I don't sweat a pass through too much.  Generally, I carry low penetration rounds and figure if I have to it's two to the body and one to the head.

B.E.Brickey

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Duane Trusty posted this 04 September 2010

Vessal

My opinion only.

I would look at Ruger's LCR price is right, and Ruger's are tough, it's simple to operate like all double action action revolvers and safe.

Get a box of 38 plus p or the old and proven “FBI” load. Chrono and develope a reload to duplicate your store bought ammo.

Try the ammo to make shure it works in your revolver as I have had name brand 357 tie up my snub nose with primers backing out while Federal ammo worked fine in the same revolver.

Duane Trusty

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JetMech posted this 05 September 2010

RicinYakima wrote: For what I carry, I worry more about under penetration rather than over penetration. Having worked the streets for 28 years and through two drug wars in the '80's and '90's, here is my most likely assailant: 16 -24 YOM from 5'8” tall weighting 200 to 300 pounds with a big belly. He will be wearing a leather coat, one or two wool shirts and have his arms, hand and weapon in front of his body. In his pockets will be cell phones and MP3 players and back up weapons. He has been using meth or cocaine/pot for several days. He will be with three others. He will also be turned 30 degrees away from his strong side.

We make our own choices, and my choice is based on my experience.

FWIW, Ric I'm with Ric. Your first concern has to be stopping the threat. I carry a Kimber Ultra 2 stoked with Speer 200 gn Gold Dots in warm weather. In colder weather, the full size Springfield 1911 with 230 gn Gold Dots gets the nod. As to the lawsuite issue, “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

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Vassal posted this 05 September 2010

yea I'd like an LCR,, BUT that will have to wait, as I am needing something truly tiney. The Mini cougar is defenitely concealable, but heavy. It will be my main goto gun, but I want something I could conceal in a swimsuit for times when the Berretta is not not a good fit (not that I actually go swimming but,,,) so one of those little flat kel tec type autos is probably it. I'd ratther have a revolver but they are simply not as flat as the pistols.

I do like the ruger though. I compared the kel tec next to the ruger and noticed right away that the trigger guard is MUCH larger on the ruger,,,GOOD JOB RUGER!

Of course I just realised that a scope setup I intended for a new rifle will NOT work,,, So now I have to make a choice.

I am pretty fortunate to live in the most beautiful state in the nation :coffee MISSOURI, which also has pretty good gun laws. I can have a loaded pistol on the seat next to me in my car---OR in the pocket behind the passengers seat ;).

EDIT: That really is the issue - If I was ever forced to use a lethal option (which is NOT the only option I leave myself with) It would mean I really though I or more liekly someone I care about was about to be seriously hurt. If saving my family's life means a jail sentence,, sign me up. ((I'm NOT really volenteering by the way))

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LWesthoff posted this 05 September 2010

For many years, my carry gun has been a Lightweight Colt Commander in .45 cal. After years of competitive bullseye pistol shooting (I earned my Distinguished Expert Medal in '82), operating a 1911 Colt was almost instinctive. However, a few years ago I had rotator cuff surgery (weak side) that came up with complications. Second operation a month later, and many months of therapy before I could use that arm at all. And I realized that with an autoloader, any kind of malfunction - misfire, stovepipe, you name it - I was effectively disarmed, unless I had full use of both arms.

Makes the old wheelgun look pretty good, when you look at it that way. Something to think about.

Wes

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tturner53 posted this 05 September 2010

Ric makes a good point, there's cold weather issues and then there's warm weather. I vote for a small frame .38 with appropriate loads considering the season(heavy clothing or not). After that I'd stress practice and stop worrying about perfect bullet performance. A five shot J frame DA only will help a lot on 3 assailants if you've practiced spreadfire and reloads with a speedloader. Find something that always goes bang and practice a lot. Go shoot somewhere where you can set up multiple targets and practice reloading on the move. Your weapon is your brain, the gun/ammo is a tool.

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biddulph posted this 06 September 2010

Heres a real life example of the sense of carrying a self defense weapon.

 

My wife was shopping with 2 of our kids: ages 6 and 4. She saw a couple of Aboriginal women fighting in the shopping centre car park. She told them that if they did not break it up she would call the police. One of them then pulled a knife out of her pocket and threatened my wife with it.

Crying kids in tow, my wife then tracked down the police. A young (26) cop came with her. He was walking slowly around, well away from the car park when my wife began to raise her voice and suggest strongly he quickly got a move on and arrested this woman before she got away.

He then gave her two warnings to calm down with the threat that he would arrest and charge her.

Wife and two kids in tears when they came home and I'm very pissed off.

 

Of course, woman with knife is free, un charged and at large.

 

A large caliber hand gun could have made all the difference in this situation.

What a joke. True story less than 24 hours old.

 

James

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biddulph posted this 06 September 2010

Heres a real life example of the sense of carrying a self defense weapon.

 

My wife was shopping with 2 of our kids: ages 6 and 4. She saw a couple of Aboriginal women fighting in the shopping centre car park. She told them that if they did not break it up she would call the police. One of them then pulled a knife out of her pocket and threatened my wife with it.

Crying kids in tow, my wife then tracked down the police. A young (26) cop came with her. He was walking slowly around, well away from the car park when my wife began to raise her voice and suggest strongly he quickly got a move on and arrested this woman before she got away.

He then gave her two warnings to calm down with the threat that he would arrest and charge her.

Wife and two kids in tears when they came home and I'm very pissed off.

 

Of course, woman with knife is free, un charged and at large.

 

A large caliber hand gun could have made all the difference in this situation.

What a joke. True story less than 24 hours old.

 

James

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JSH posted this 06 September 2010

Just some things on CC that I have observed. People that are non shooters and have no knowledge of fire arms. These types seem to just want a “gun” and a cheap one. A body goes to pulling a gun on a bad guy, it better DANG sure function! All good calibers start with a “4", though something is better than nothing.

I took a CC class and passed it with flying colors. I have sat in on several classes since then as I know the instructors and was curious as to some of the subjects and comments that are brought up. I was really suprised that a fair bunch of them always thought they were going to be some kind of super hero or somthing to that effect. Needless to say those types were set straight in short order. Then when they were told if they did shoot some one, fired the weapon or pulled the weapon, there was still a large chance they would go to jail along with the bad guy. Of course that shocked them. As to factory ammo. I have a lot of faith in my reloads. Factory amm can and does fail at times. But how many factroy loads have you heard of failing compared to handloads? For the msall savings of handloads compared to factory, I would spend the $ on factory and practice with a handloaded duplicate. Practice, I would also mention I think there to be a fair amount of CC folks that have not cleaned, fired or unloaded their carry gun since they got it. Most of these are the non shooting types to begin with. I know of two such instaces. One a woman and the other a gent, both shooters. The woman had here purse/holster and carried it all the time. Some kind of candy got onto the action and trigger, made it a single shot auto. The gent bought his compact 45 glock and carried it loaded for a long time. He had it at the range one day when the subject of CC came up. Pulled it out and decided he would punch some paper10-15 yards. He could no more hit it than fly! had feed issues also. Mag spring had been compressed so long it would not feed. They repalced the spring and then it ran fine. He did admit he had NEVER fired the thing since he bought it! needless to say I was totaly shocked. You can't fix stupid. jeff

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JSH posted this 06 September 2010

James I don't know the laws in your country, I have a hard time keeping track of the ones here,lol. Unless your wife was parked real close to the two fighting women, and they kept her from entering her car, and making a threat towards her, pulling a gun on them would have been out of line. Even “flashing” one would have caused issues with “brandishing". However I don't see where the LEO could have ticketed your Mrs. A call to the LEO was in line, but, I would not have given them ANY kind of warning. The “7” magic words “I was in fear of my life".

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Grant posted this 06 September 2010

Regarding using handloads for a carry gun, here is my opinion as a former prosecutor. Do it. Sure, I could use that against you to argue to the jury that you are a killer who was looking for someone to kill. And I could make the same argument if you used a hollow-point jacketed bullet, a soft-nose bullet, a laser sight, a DA-only gun, a gun that has a non-reflective finish, and the list goes on. And I would do it with factory advertising and the testimony of an expert witness. The two most important points are (1) use what works and (2) don't hit anyone else. Any time you launch a bullet you are absolutely responsible for any damage or injury the bullet causes, and most of the time the liability is criminal as well as civil.

Cops don't like handloads because handloads are usually against departmental policy (and a defense attorney can use that to help his client) and because cops are professional witnesses and don't want to look bad. Nobody wants to look bad. But if you launch a bullet and wind up in a trial, you will look bad. Lawyers are trained to make the most of the evidence, and they will use anything against you. The bright spot is that juries do not believe everything that lawyers argue ”€œ only half the time at most. So by all means use the bullet that will give you the best results, put it where it counts, and don't let any bullets stray.

And do not fire any warning shots. That is a felony, and you might wind up being convicted of murder under the felony-murder rule.

 

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frank l jr posted this 06 September 2010

BOY, LOTS OF CHOICES 1 st,MUST FUNCTION= EVERY TIME !!!! autos ok ,need to shot and practiced with bunches! wheel guns are probaly the most relibiale, just do not have enough holes. BUT, how many can one use in an alterciation? after 6 or 7, it better be over with, or the pile of mess is just to deep, hope you have some help. i carry a 9mm in the summer fed hp, 45 acp winter, fed hp. these guns have many rounds through then,with a big dollop of reliable practice!!! just my 2 c worth from an old coot,been around the block. if you havtto, just make sure it counts, no way is good. better by 12 than 6 pallbeares. frank l jr

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Brodie posted this 08 September 2010

Thank you Grant, you have made my points perfectly and with experience and authority.

Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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