Hard to remove black fouling

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  • Last Post 26 February 2011
CB posted this 11 July 2010

After shooting some cast bullet loads, etc that I can easily clean the bore down to bare metal as viewed with a bore scope with some Ed's Red and ten brush strokes or leave it alone and continue to get good accuracy.

Other loads produce a hard black fouling that can be felt resisting the first patch and is very hard to remove. If the bore isn't cleaned accuracy is degraded. In the bore scope it looks like a black varnish,with some fraction of bare metal depending on how many cycles of bore cleaner and brush have been applied It seems to be worse with some powders than others. It happens with rough bore as well as very smooth ones.

ER, Butch's Bore Shine, or Kroil doesn't seem to touch it. JB and a lot of elbow grease will eventually work. I tried Slip 2000 which is supposed to dissolve the carbon on gas piston parts in 15 minutes it is also supposed to be non toxic, non flammable, non hazardous, biodegradable and even smells nice -- but it doesn't do a thing for the black fouling.

The bore looks OK by eye after normal cleaning and I would like to ignore it but anything that makes it very hard for the first patch to pass can't be doing cast bullets any good.

Any suggestions to either the cause or the remedy?

John

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Capote posted this 11 July 2010

Mr. Alexander--in your second paragraph I suspect your reference is jacketed bullets.

If so and it is a .223 in particular, I had a similar problem which was solved by Lester

Bruno's suggestion to clean normally with (shooters choice), then clean with (hoppes).  Your patches will be clean after the shooters choice, then with the next cleaning with hoppes you will see the black come out.  Keep alternating until clean.

My understanding is copper layer, carbon layer, copper layer, carbon layer.  Hope this helps.

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CB posted this 11 July 2010

John, That hard black coating is probably carbon. Besides ER I've starting using cleaners from Sharp Shoot-R and they have alll been really good. I've never used the Carb-Out but if it works as well as their other products I'd expect a winner. The directions call for no brushing but from things I've read a little brushing after 15 or 20 minutes of soak time helps a lot. Here's the link.

http://www.sharpshootr.com/carbout.htm>http://www.sharpshootr.com/carbout.htm

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corerf posted this 11 July 2010

I would expect some of the carburetor cleaners that are spray on would cut that stuff, unless a copper layer is covering it.

Dunno if gumout spray and such are even mildly corrosive. I expect not since corrosives down the throat of a running car makes for a bad piston day.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 July 2010

I've only experienced this problem once. That was when I was experimenting with East Block / Israeli military surplus powders. If was so cheap, that I had to try several different blends.

What I think it is is unburned deterrent and anti-flash chemicals in the powder. These are consumed at 40,000+ psi loads with jacketed bullets. Several of these powders left the same type of residue you described, requiring JB to get it out.

FWIW, Ric

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giorgio de galleani posted this 12 July 2010

I may live in Wonderland, amongs the Fairies, but I never have such battles with my bores.

I use mostly light loads with cast bullets ,many plainbased and a little less with gas checks.

But I use He MAN loads for boars& Bowling Pins.

I very seldom have leading,mostly when I do something obviously wrong and  stupid,too much pressure ,too soft bullets,or too small bullets.

If I have heavy leading I shoot some full charge jacketd loads,then I clean the jacket fouling with a sinclair chamber plug and stronger ammonia.After that I pass Ed's Red ,or Hoppes,or WD40 .

I use rods as little as possible,because rods ruin the bores.

Sometimes I shoot some accurate Mod 70 Win HB rifles,,and use moly coated Sierra bullets ,because they need little cleaning.

In my  most NOT humble opinion, More bores are ruined by enthusiast cleaners (expecially the ones with Army education) than those that are ruined by rot&mildew,neglect corrosive primes et coetera.

I avoid like plague corrosive primers,old Gi ammo,expecially the communist production.

Anybody wants unknown maker's 303 br with corrosive primers? They would be free.

 

I Never clean the cast bullet bores,I just clean the chambers and the actions,and generously spray WD40 in the innards,triggers,and similia,then blow away the morning dew with compressed air.

When my rifle, pony and me get wet to the underwear in the boar mountains,  when I get into my van,I put the open Marlin at the foot of the passeger,raise the warm air at maximum,and after two hour plus ride,the Marlin is dry,and it deserves some  little oil in the bore at home.

To give their best accuracy my bores must be bore conditioned,a polite way to say dirty.

Our newsletter is not called “the clean bore".it is called :The Fouling Shot.

PS I realize when I throw a stone in the pond.(or beehive.9

 

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CB posted this 15 July 2010

Thanks for the replies.

I will try the Sharpshooter Carb out and maybe a carburetor cleaner. I will admit that after using it for 65 years I am out of Hoppes and should get some if only for the good smell.

Jacketed bullets aren't involved in my troubles.

Both 5744 and Varget cause this type of fouling for me but it may only be the lots of powder I have.

John.

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jaguarxk120 posted this 22 July 2010

I have used alcohol with good results. Since the stuff is cheap compaired to other cleaners, I use plenty of the stuff. Using a brass/bronze brush I douche the bore and brush well keeping the bore wet/flooded with the alcohol. You will be surprised at the amount of carbon/powder fouling that comes out of the bore. The using regular cleaning solvents to takes out the copper.

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tturner53 posted this 21 February 2011

Anybody try 'RIG Lead Wipe Gun Cleaning Cloth'? It comes in a sheet, you cut it into small squares and run it thru on a brush. After several soakings/scrubbings with Ed's Red and Hoppe's #9 the black stuff still comes out heavy using the RIG cloth in my Steyr M95. I don't know how this cloth works, but if you rub it on the outside it'll remove bluing. I would like to know what the black fouling is, it just keeps coming. The RIG is very effective for removing lead in a handgun, I know that. If you have a lead buildup inside the frame it wipes off easily with this magic cloth. I suspect it is a combination of abrasives and chemical, but don't really know how it works. It sure cleans up a fouled .38 barrel nice, lead and all.

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John Boy posted this 21 February 2011

A deep cleaner for consideration ... http://www.shilohrifle.coms/viewtopic.php?t=16625&highlight=oven>http://www.shilohrifle.coms/viewtopic.php?t=16625

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Brodie posted this 21 February 2011

John Boy;  The cleaner sounds a lot like Bon Ami, or other abrasive cleaners.  Of course JB bore cleaner is in that catagory also.  The only real difference is in the size or the grit, and it's composition.  '

Just how bad do you want the gunk out of your barrel?

The cleaner as described is not something I would use regularily in a rifle with a really good bore.  I don't see how you can control which part of the bore gets abraded (even if it is a very small amount of abrasion) .  Will it round the lands of the rifling?   Qustions like that which I cannot answer keep me from jumping head long into a new cleaning regimen.

Maybe someone like Ed Harris or Rick in Yakima can give us a more informed opinion.  If I sound like I'm babling it must be the cabin fever talking!

B.E.Brickey

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Brodie posted this 21 February 2011

John Boy;  The cleaner sounds a lot like Bon Ami, or other abrasive cleaners.  Of course JB bore cleaner is in that catagory also.  The only real difference is in the size or the grit, and it's composition.  '

Just how bad do you want the gunk out of your barrel?

The cleaner as described is not something I would use regularily in a rifle with a really good bore.  I don't see how you can control which part of the bore gets abraded (even if it is a very small amount of abrasion) .  Will it round the lands of the rifling?   Qustions like that which I cannot answer keep me from jumping head long into a new cleaning regimen.

Maybe someone like Ed Harris or Rick in Yakima can give us a more informed opinion.  If I sound like I'm babling it must be the cabin fever talking!

B.E.Brickey

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RicinYakima posted this 22 February 2011

I have never used that brand, but it removes blue, it is abrasive. The “black” that you see can be just plane old steel that you are rubbing off the inside of the barrel.

Usually, I use the boiling water and nylon brush through the bore several times before I use the abrasive cloth. Then it gets wrapped around a bore brush and stroked maybe 10 times maximum before some wet patches of Ed's Red.

Foam-Out is a very good product, but really expensive, for copper fouling. And it eats wood finishes for lunch, so be careful.

Ric

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CB posted this 22 February 2011

I agree with Ric the never ending black is simply the nature of steel. You can do the same thing by rubbing a bare piece of steel with fine steel wool -- the black never ends. The magical lead out cloth will do it in spades -without end.

The Sharpshooter Carb Out recommended by Pat works better than other things I have tried for the hard black fouling.

I am more interested in avoiding it than getting it out. In fact I don't want to clean at all if I can avoid it and with lots of combinations I can. But not this stuff. Accuracy clearly goes to pot after 15 or 20 shots and probably sooner.

Unfortunately I have a good supply of 5744 and Varget and both seem to produce the hard black stuff with the loads I was using. Many powders don't seem to create that type of fouling at all and I guess that's the answer.

John

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tturner53 posted this 22 February 2011

Maybe I've discovered a new way to polish a rough bore. Now that I look at it I can see a “brushed” look to the chambers in my ..357 BH. I did get out that annoying ring of lead left just in front of the throats though. Avoiding leading is definitely the best route.

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Brodie posted this 23 February 2011

Just how does this “Black Goo” affect accuracy?

It seem to me that if it the effects are not sufficiently deleterious why bother with it?

B.E.Brickey

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tturner53 posted this 23 February 2011

My original intent behind using the RIG Lead Wipe was to remove lead that I could see. There is no black goo fouling visible in the bores I've used it in. The cloth turns black when used, I was thinking it might be lead, but I'm not sure. I'll run a patch thru a gun that has never had lead thru it, only copper. Yes, I do have one, an EBR. If it turns black it'll indicate something, either it's carbon or steel. My AR is kept very clean, so I'd bet on steel, as suggested above. The directions on the package advise not to toss it just because it's black, that it works better the blacker it gets. My hunch is I've been lapping my bores and chambers without realising it. Not smart, but it could be useful as a tool in the tool box.

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JSH posted this 26 February 2011

IMHO sounds like a lube issue? Petro turns to coke, aspahlt at high pressure and heat to my understanding.

I had an issue with a lube sizer and some lube I bought a few years back. The lube turned to goo (tar) no matter what speed or caliber I used it in. I work at an aspalt plant, so I grabbed a bit of the Big Orange cleaner we use in the lab. Problem solved and bore cleaned. I promptly boiled the lube sizer in a pot of water to clean it. I used the remaing sticks of lube for a flux in my smelting. it left a tar like goo on top of the dross. I will stick with my tried and true for me home made lube. jeff

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tturner53 posted this 26 February 2011

Follow-up on the RIG Lead Wipe Cleaning Cloth: For a comparison I ran a couple patches of the RIG cloth thru my .223 AR. It has never had a CB thru it. I cleaned heck out of it first with #9 and then Ed's Red until patches were clean and dry. The RIG cloth started right off with black streaks on it that increased with each pass. So at least now I know the black stuff isn't lead. That said, it sure does remove stubborn lead fouling, just maybe a little of your barrel with it. I'm going to ease up on using this for general clean up.

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