To size, or not to size?

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  • Last Post 27 April 2010
Vassal posted this 20 April 2010

Well, I have been noticing that when I FL size my brass (7.62x54r) that I get better groups, And today I did a couple of small tests and it remained true. When I first started neck sizing only I was CERTAIN that I saw an improvement. Looking back, It could have been other things (new press, technique, scale and more) This is counterintuitive; I don't get it. This cartridge IS rimmed, Could the rim and the “formed” shoulder be batt'ling for headspace?

 

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7mmxbolt posted this 20 April 2010

Vassal, Is the rifle in question a Nagant or the SVD Sniper rifle?

As you are probably fully aware there could be any one of many different reason for your accuracy to deminish by just neck sizing alone. I have always had much better accuracy neck sizing only as long as I had proper head spacing.  Do you know what you have for head space, case rim to bolt face? If you do in fact have minimal HS you could very well be right in assuming that the shoulder & case rim is fighting each other. Unless your using a full blown charge you should only need .0005 - .001 HS. 

When you do FL size how much are you bumping the shoulder back or are you staying away from it altogether? Sounds as though by FL sizing your bumping the shoulder back enough to give the cartridge the room it needs because of minimal or no HS at the bolt face. Do you notice a differance in bolt lift when NS only and FL sizing?

Is there a chance you are using different brands of brass and the rim thickness are different causing an inconsistant HS issue?

Just trying to lay some thoughts out on the table.  Once your brass is fire formed to the chamber there should be no reason to FL size except for maybe every 4-5 reloads at which point you would want to anneal anyways. But the fact that the accuracy improves FL sizing leads me to believe there just may be a HS issue.

 

Bill

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Vassal posted this 20 April 2010

I don't know about a measurement for headspace, But what I do know is that the rifles that seem to be benefiting from FL are those that show the SLIGHTEST change from before and after firing. Meaning the “lines” of the shoulder move little if at all. My FL die is set to touch the shellholder. I have not tried moving it around much. I have aleways een a bit baffled by headspace in these MOSIN rifles. THe rim fits so tightly behind the extractor that I dont see how it could possibly space from the rim. I am using all PPU brass from the same bag. I also put them in with the headstamp in the same direction each time. (by the way- the rifle that is shooting the best also has a weak/sprung extractor. Relevant? MAybe.) ALSO the rifle that I first started N sizing only, and believed I was getting a very marked improvement, is the ONE of these guns that shows the GREATEST difference before and after firing. PErhaps a test with that rifle is in order. OH DARN:riflebr:

Headspace Masters please comment! :kilroy:

I guess I should try setting the FL die to just touch the shoulder, and then use the N die to size the whole neck.

Stuff like this drives me crazy. I can't stand to not comprehend what is going on! 

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tturner53 posted this 20 April 2010

I'm loading up a batch today with no sizing at all. These cases are once fired in my MN and marked for orienting. I'm using a GB custom 316299, a modified Lyman 314299 that are .316/.305. A dummy round at 3” OAL chambers fine and engraves a little on the rifling. I'm seating the Gator checks by hand and tumble lubing with LLA. Some will get a Lee Factory Crimp Die crimp, some won't, for comparison. Once I shoot them I'll report. My goal is to eliminate case and bullet sizing if possible, others have done it with great success.

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Vassal posted this 21 April 2010

TT be sure to write about your results. Interested Minds want to know.

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JSH posted this 21 April 2010

Just my take on milsurps. Most, not all, of them have a bit larger than modern sporting rifle chambers and throats. Thus enabling them to still shoot with minute of body accuracy for long term shooting between cleanings. The 20 rounds I shot this past weekend may not even get the neck sized as bullet fit in the case is pretty good, slip fit. I still really need to do a chamber cast on my M39. I suspect with just what I have observed in the 20 rounds that the brass I have and the chamber, that a .310-.311 bullet was meant for it. BUT, the throat and groove depth demand a .313+ for good shooting with cast. I load most all of my milsurps first firing brass to engage the rifling or throat, to hold the case against the bolt face. I find this to be of some benefit in brass growth, moves brass at the shoulder rather than at the web. After that I usuaully just size about 1/2 of the neck If I can get by with it. The bolt closing on a loaded round was , just enough to be felt when the lugs were in fully locked. The opening of the bolt on a fired round was just as smooth and easy of any modern sporting rifle. I don't index my cases as the games i play with my milsurps, time won't allow it. I used to think it quite silly to do so. The more I think about it the more sense it does make though on an out of line, or off center chamber. I would think FL sizing would just make firing in the off center chamber do the opposite of what one wants? I mean you fire the round and the brass “bends” to fit the “bent” chamber. Then you run it through a FL die and straighten it back out. Then shoot it in the bent chamber thus bending it again, indexing cases all along the way. The same goes for a lot of neck sizing, that is why I partial size the necks when I can. As long as they will feed, chamber and shoot good. LOL, I still find it quite enetertaining what lengths we will go to try to make these old war horses shoot with CB's. Though more than once when we find a combo the gun likes the will out shoot a lot of modern guns. Interesting thread once agin Vassal, stay after it. jeff

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7mmxbolt posted this 21 April 2010

One thing that has always worked for me anyways with cast bullets is, provided there is no mag to contend with is to NS only after the initial fire forming and seat that bullet into the lands as far as possible and allow the action to finish seat the bullet into the case. One, it allows the bullet to provide a good tight seal in the bore and two, it helps the bullet to align itself in the lands & grooves. However, there is a balancing act between what is to far to go based on how easy it is to close the action for proper & full battery. But that can be controlled with neck tention if need be. Not to mention I certainly would not do this with a full blown load as chamber pressures would surely be excessive. You would absoulty want to rework up the load to find the optimal charge weight and to insure you remain within safe pressure limits. I do this in a couple of my rifles with a hard cast bullet “25 bhn” that is sized .003 over groove diameter with excellant results. This is a break action that has .001 head space at the firing pin plug and the case head is flush with the end of the barrel.

Not to blow my own horn here but I am talking about 200 yard accuracy with a 0.532 CTC 4 shot group.

 

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tturner53 posted this 21 April 2010

7mm, a little hijack here if it's ok? Is that an H&R/NEF you're getting such great accuracy from? I'd like to know the particulars of that combo, if you care to share them. Maybe start a new thread, Handi Rifle accuracy. I'm always messing with one of these, right now fighting a .243 barrel I just got.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 21 April 2010

I am always to reduce work(I do HATE work),so I full lenght size,with carbide dies pistol rounds ( no lubing and cleaning) and lube size full lenght  and clean brass for semiauto rifles.

In all other situation I just neck size,with traditional dies or Neil Jones collet dies and last but not least use the Lee collet sizer dies.

I even use neck sizer Lyman dies in 45 /70 caliber,and 458 Lott.

I have two marlin 95,an Uberti Highwall and a Chiappa cavalry Sharps,and the neck sized brass is perfectly intercangeable.in those four guns. 

Luck or moderate  pressure cast bullet loads?

An accurate Winchester 70 Heavy Barrel 308 shoots well both full lenght sized brass and neck sized brass,Lapua brass,the best ,it needs NO case prepping.

Mi opinion is that accurate rifles and GOOD cartridge cases shoot well independently from  the sizing system I use.

I believe good bullets and reasonable powder charges are more important.

And ,of course,you must know beforehand what kind of accuracy to expect from the different rifles  you have.And better use the system your Mosin like best,mine likes the Lee collet sizer,die.

If memory serves me I use the same lee die for the 303BR and 7.5Swiss.

I put sow ears in the stew and own no silk purses.

A boar ham, cut into small pieces,is slowly cooking in the pot over the woodstove,with onions,mushrooms and riesling Oltrepò Pavese white wine.

 

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7mmxbolt posted this 21 April 2010

tturner53 wrote: 7mm, a little hijack here if it's ok? Is that an H&R/NEF you're getting such great accuracy from? I'd like to know the particulars of that combo, if you care to share them. Maybe start a new thread, Handi Rifle accuracy. I'm always messing with one of these, right now fighting a .243 barrel I just got.

The rifle I am speaking about is a T/C Encore Prohunter with a Bergara barrel in 300 WM. The rifle has been accurized with all of Mike Bellm stuff which I took care of myself to include a 13 oz trigger job. Pop on over to this thread for details on what I am using.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=5556&forum_id=63&jump_to=36441#p36441>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=5556&forumid=63&jumpto=36441#p36441

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Vassal posted this 22 April 2010

HAs anybody else had a gun (rimmed caliber or not) that shot BETTER with FL sized brass.

Anyone know if it makes any sense to question the “interplay” of the shoulder and the rim on a Fire formed and rimmed case?

I am using the RCBS neck sizing die for this caliber. I guess it could be a bad one. Perhaps a Lee collet die would be better. I suppose I need a concentricity guage, but I am driving myself crazy already :caution:

I know these guns can shoot. I should probably just be pleased with getting the results that I am. Its just a matter of time untill I get there with cast.  It feels pretty good to shoot under an inch at 100yd with iron sites on a Mosin Nagant. Especially when some of the guys next to me are shooting modern rifles with scopes less succesfully.

BUT on the other hand, my pursuit is excellence. Excellence can come in many and varied forms. I am following an aspiration to knowledge about succesfull and precision shooting generally and the use of cast bullets specifically. For me excellence is using what I have and giving it my all untill I have achieved EVERYTHING that can be had from that particular toolset. Wether it be a Mosin, a Mauser, a BAT or an ol' Hog getter. I hope to take something and through hard work allow it to be more than it might have been before. To allow it to be something better than I or others thought it was.

OR maybe I just enjoy beating my head against the wall in a mad chase after something that can not be achieved.  :thinking:  Its a fifty fifty shot on that one.;)

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giorgio de galleani posted this 22 April 2010

Please,do not ruin the walls,as your head should be pretty hard,at least as hard as mine.

Rifles that shoot too well and easily are boring to me.

When you can master the Mosin's one stage trigger and the bedding problems of the long barrel models,,if you have a new or very good barrel your Mosin must shoot very well.

The II world War barrels are very well made,better than the SMLE barrels of the same vintage made in the UK.

I almost never full lenght size my rimmed rifle cases,and never touch the shoulders,even in a Marlin 30WCF.

I had case head separations in a 375H&H CZ using RCBS FL dies,and magnum cases headspace on the belt ,as rimmed cases headspace on the rim.

I believe that brass makers(expecially during wars,) use to make short cases and rifle makers make long sloppy chambers,to chamber  easily any dirty or deformed cartridge,and who cares about reloaders.

And,let me insist,do try the humble Lee collet sizer,in the other  types of sizers ,the  pull through expander  may deform your brass.

Custom bushing Neil Jones neck sizers do not need expanding after sizing.

And your RCBS neck sizer might work your brass back and forth too much.

Very little communications between Tula,Izmash and us Die makers.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 22 April 2010

And I have not found enough courage to get a custom throater to chamber that 200 plus grain bullet from an LBT mould

The long torpedo feed from a Lee Speed sporting rifle I cannot afford,but will not feed from the magazine of my SMLE.

It does feed well from my little 44 mosin.

And my walls are made of bricks,more than two feet thick.

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JSH posted this 22 April 2010

"Perhaps a Lee collet die would be better. I suppose I need a concentricity guage, but I am driving myself crazy already"  Do as you please, but when you index a case that is “bent” to fit the chamber of a particular gun, that should take car of any off center issues.  If you want to beat your head on a wall, get a cocentricity gauge. It will drive you nuts.  Are you going to check the neck or the bullet or both? Get ready for a lot of frustration.

When you FL size and get everything back to square as we can make it, I have found them to shoot better some times than one that is just neck sized. It is better for the bullet to be in the center of the case, than to have the bullet be pointing left and the chamber off center to the right. Then you end up with twice as much 'skidding' or twice as bad off center.

Take a virgin once fired unsized case and run it through the gauge will tell you a bit about the rifles chamber.

As I mentioned above some of the lengths we  go to to MAKE these things shoot. There are some good shooting milsurps out there no doubt. But the benchrest one hole accuracy at 100 is more the exception than the norm imho. Can one get get good groups from them, why sure. probably better than most of the general public can honestly get from there modern rifle. As you have already attested to above.

I have looked at the 7.62x54 case and It seems it is a good candidate for crazy stuff going on when you drag the neck back over the expander ball. It can and will pull a neck off center. I have seen this on the  22 hornet, 30-20 and 30-30. I use an under sized expander that does nothing more than hold the decap pin. I then run these cases through a Lyman M die. Poor mans way around having button sizer dies for everything.

If you are indexing I would fool with bullet seating length more than concentricity. Maybe throw in trying a partial FL sizing? Run the brass into the FL die , but have it just short of touching the neck shoulder junction?

How much is your FL sizing die sizing the brass down? My RCBS sizes my 7.65x53 and 7.62x54 down to hold a 308 bullet. Once again and as mentiond by the gent above, sizing dies are being forced down our throats on these calibers that size properly for very few if any of these.

If I was better on a lathe than just knowing enough to be dangerous i would have fixed the issue already. A firend of mine is a good machinist, but at $20 per hour I will figure it out one way or anoither.

jeff

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Vassal posted this 22 April 2010

AHHHHHH!!!

   Great. Now not only do I need a concentricity guage, a better understainding of headspace, but also a better understanding of sizing dies! It seems such a simple thing,,,

I have been thinking about the expander ball pulling with differing resistance back through the neck (thus stretching the shoulder differently) but I lubed the necks and figured it was good enough. I will need to check into this. (I do have .310 expanders in the dies)

Perhaps I should remove the expander and use my M-die!?? That seems at least a little more controlled

I found other posts deriding the use of expander balls.:shock: I have never heard of that before.

Clearly this will take some testing. I will have to measure new brass against fired brass (from each rifle) against fired then resized brass. As a student, I simply don't have the money for a concentricity guage right now, and it will likely be awhile (I need some supplies). BUT I can at least check the amount that each shoulder is “moving.:"

WOWEE. It has been frustrating, but even ten years ago it would have taken umm ten years,, of trial and error, to learn about all this stuff. The Internet has sure increased the learning curve. Of course my stomach is “in my throat” and I feel a bit vertiginous.:puke:.

Thanks Guys-      I wil continue to shoot! -    Hard fought victory and all that,

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7mmxbolt posted this 22 April 2010

Vassal wrote: I know these guns can shoot. I should probably just be pleased with getting the results that I am. Its just a matter of time untill I get there with cast.  It feels pretty good to shoot under an inch at 100yd with iron sites on a Mosin Nagant. Especially when some of the guys next to me are shooting modern rifles with scopes less succesfully.

If your getting that type of accuracy with a cast bullet in your Mosin with the stock iron sites that's nothing to be ashamed about, in fact to me that would be exceptional. I own a M1903 Springfield “low Number” which after putting on a Williams peep doesn't get much better than your seeing out of your Nagant. Had to do trigger work and add the peep in order to close up the gap. On a good day when the sun, moon & stars are all aligned just right it does a bit better. So I guess my point being is have you done any work to the rifle to help it shoot better? Myself, I always try to eliminate any and all the variables within my control to get the most out of any rifle I own. Your round could very well be the best your going to get, it's just the rifle won't let it shine.

But then again!

Aside from accurizing the rifle, once you find your OCW “Optimal Charge Weight” with your powder, the remaining tuning is bullet seating and that's pretty much it. But the key is finding that OCW that allows for the round to hit the same point of impact regardless of the conditions as long as your case prep remains consistent which is probably the most important factor to consider. Your load could be balancing on that fine line between good and bad depending on the environment it is faced with. If your load development is done using the Audette ladder system, have a look at this site and see if it makes any sense to you. This is how I do it and it never fails me.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/>http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

I can use a few different powders in any firearm I own and see very similar results once the OCW is determined for a particular powder.

Again just trying to lay some options out on the table to be considered.

 

Bill

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Vassal posted this 22 April 2010

I should be clear.  I am NOT getting the bragadocoius groups listed above with cast.

    “it is just a matter of time untill I get there,"

     I don't know what sort of accuracy I will ultimately achieve with cast, I meant to imply that I am confidant that I will gleen the “best” that the rifles (and my anxious body and bespectacled eyes) can offer.

      I HAVE been bragging up the groups that I am getting from my Mosins for awhile now. It has taken alot of stress (and trips to the range) over the past year and a'half, refining my shooting and loading technique and learning from others here, in order to achieve something I am pleased with. I hope that it will be accepted in the spirit in which it is offered.

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 22 April 2010

I sure have a tougher and harder head than yours.

Invest a few greenbacks in a Lee collet die,study their instructions in their  web site http://www.leeprecision>WWW.leeprecision and you will see that their sistem is very clever,if the flash holes in your brass is centered.The cases will be perfectly staight.

My collectin of costly bras prepping instruments are gathering dust in a big box.

If your flash holes are not concentric in the cartridges, throw them away.

And if your loading press is a good one ,you can easily regulate the amount of sizing of your neck.

And,if you have been bitten by the accuracy bug,do not go astray,following the syrens  songs of costly case prepping tool, nd flea's hair measuring tools,throw away all the inferior brass made by the gipsy heirs of dracula and ,or vodka drinking tartars,east of the Urals,

DO get the lapua brass,it needs no trimming,flash hole deburring,inside meck turning ,or other magic operations,it is perfect from the factory.

The Lapua cases even nedd NO inside neck deburring for cast bullets. loading and shooting.

The original PPC cartridge,has nothing magic in its project,it is a derivation of the  7.35 Carcano brass captured by the communists in Finnland, shotrened and used by Kalashnikov in his gun,transformed in the 220 Russian target round. and finally made into 6 and 22 PPC ,USING LAPUA BRASS. By Pindell & Palmisano.

Only the very best US made match brass is comparable to Lapua or Norma regular brass.

And being a ferocious admirer of the US of A,or ,to be honest a part

of the US of A,you guess which part,i hate to admit that the  Finn brass is better  than the standard american bass.

PS if you are so unlucky to load for semiauto bottleneck rifles,you Must full neck size,trim the cases etcoetera.,But I still use the lapua brass in my ugly duckling.SKS.

But she sports US front and rear sights ,the issue sights were good for the hordes of oriental cannon fodder, not for this old ( fart)  gentleman,

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Vassal posted this 22 April 2010

I have been using “cheap” brass.

I am trying to sort out what EXACTLY is going on in the chamber / dies, so that I can better understand what is happening rather than just go with what works. I can tell that if I can really Understand this problem that I will have gained a very beneficial bit of knowledge  - for all calibers.

I have been using dry-erase markers trying to set my FL die to just touch the shoulder, BUT it is almost all the way down when I do so.

I guess the issue is with slightly non-concentric chambers OR dies, OR both. BUT I thought that (like a poster has written) that Indexing the cases when firing should have made those imperfections a mute point. I guess that if it is “crooked” and then the neck die straightens the neck only it MAY actually force the bullet into a MORE crooked position. FL sizing allows room to move, thus allowing a better entry into the bore.

Part of the problem is I can't tell where the dies or chambers are contacting, and where they are touching first. And of course not even understanding how the headspace works on these rifles isn't helping (i.e. I can't see how they space from anything other than the extractor, it is just too tight)

BUT What are the chances it would happen in EACH of Four seperate rifles, and NOT be a common issue with other shooters (who seem to nearly universally get better groups with N sizing.)

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canalupo posted this 22 April 2010

vassal

I really have not been following each reply to this thread, however it seems the problem could be a barrel bulge in the throat or very starting area of “freebore” ( the area just where the rifling begins). The FL casing would give a straight line support to bullet as it entered rifling improving accuracy. Neck sizing would miss direct bullet into bulge and cause deformation of nose and be detrimental to accuracy.

It is something to check maybe with a chamber cast or shooting into a medium so you could recover some bullets and possibly see a visual difference between bullets from FL cases and NS cases.

Good Luck Bob D

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7mmxbolt posted this 22 April 2010

A chamber cast is going to tell the whole story whether there is problem in the throat area or not. Just have to ask this, but did you or anyone else ever get a cast bullet stuck in the barrel after firing it?

As far as knowing how much your bumping the shoulder back on your brass this is a tool I use and I really don't know of another product out there that will give you as precise a measurement then this. http://www.larrywillis.com/>http://www.larrywillis.com/ Using this tool will allow you to set up your sizer die “no matter who makes it” properly and without doubt!

Simply setting up your dies per the instructions only gets you in the ball - park. Typically by doing so, your probably bumping them back as much as .004-.006 and over working the brass more than it needs to and shortening the case life. You don't need to buy expensive brass to get good results if you know how to properly take care of what you have. Staying away from the shoulder with your die is generally going to be a better proposition unless your die was made from the same reamer as your barrel was. Off the shelf dies are made to SAMMI spec's not your rifle. Good enough for minute of DEER but not for bench rest results.

For what it's worth, take your rifle to a gunsmith and have him/her measure your headspace so you know where you stand and can eliminate all this guesswork and focus on the root cause to your problem. Headspace on that rifle is measured from the case head to the bolt face PERIOD! In addition, you typically only need .0005 to .001 MAX! Any more and you will be struggling with this thing until the cows come home. Now if by chance you have excessive headspace and your bumping the shoulder back your only adding to the problem and spinning your wheels. You have to understand what you are dealing with in order to fix the problem if there even is one. 

Not every rifle made is a shooter but unless there is something seriously wrong with it, it should give you 1” MOA with the right cartridge you assemble. However, before you can get to that point you have to understand what you have to work with. Not knowing what you have for HS or how much your bumping your brass shoulders back ain't gonna get you any closer to your goal than you are right now, bottom line! Moreover, the chamber cast is a must if you want to shoot lead out of it and do yourself a favor and have that gunsmith take peek down the barrel while they are at it. It just may save you a lot of time, money, and aggravation  as appose to chasing something that isn't there.

Sorry if I sound cocky but I don't mean to be. Just that sometimes a good o'l fashion reality check can help sometimes. Good luck with whatever you decided.

Bill

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Vassal posted this 22 April 2010

I suppose I will just be patient. I will need to cast the chambers and measure them, as well as the dies, but I simply don't have the tools, And I surely can not afford to take all these guns to a gunsmith!:wow:   I appreciate all the help.  I guess I am just asking too much; NOT from the rifles (as they already provide MUCH better accuracy than I ever expected) but rather from my ability to learn about ballistics, rifles and gunsmithing. I guess if I want the sort of information I am seeking I will have to take some gunsmithing classes.

I do thank all of you that have responded.

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tturner53 posted this 22 April 2010

V., I think you may be over thinking it. If it was me I'd fireform some boxer brass, mark them for orienting, keep that brass just for that gun. Barely necksize, get some tried and true basic loads from here in the 1600 fps range, and go have fun. Don't get discouraged, it doesn't have/need to be rocket science. You're getting input from some very advanced experienced casters, that's good, but for now keep it simple. If it was me I would forget the word headspace for now and just cast, load, shoot. Stick to proven mild loads for a while and I don't think you will get into any trouble. After I get to the range to test my unsized loads I'll let you know how it went.  EDIT; A chamber cast is great, tells you a lot, but in the end for a good basic load I'd go with a bullet about .001” under fired case inside neck diameter and seat them out to just touch the lands, if that's possible, or maybe just somewhere between 2.9” and 3” OAL.

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Vassal posted this 23 April 2010

Yes, I guess I will just keep shooting and resign myself to not TRULY understanding what is going on. I suppose I can't expect to learn all this stuff through a forum, The communication is just too limited. I am not sure we even understand what we are REALLY saying to each other (past a certain point) :thinking: 

Example: These Mosins are merely an example, I want them too shoot, but they already do! I don't think I can expect much more. What I am really after is understanding. like why would knowing the headspace make any difference in this situation? If the shoulder moves = too much headspace right, but I am talking about results which are better with FL than N sizing and wondering why. IS it beacuse of the headspace? But it is doing it on each of four guns with different headspace, ANd why arent others experiencing the same problem? The list does not end there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It seems I am trying to achieve something without the proper means of approach (a common problem in my life) I will learn about these things when I have the money to buy enough tools and supplies to deeply experiment, and/or pay someone to teach me in person. UNtill then I guess I will simply shoot, go bang. 

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Vassal posted this 23 April 2010

UHH I simply cant stop myself.

THose of you that neck size, are you setting the die to touch the shoulder? can you even bump the shoulder in a neck sizer?

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JSH posted this 23 April 2010

I never ever touch the shoulder intentionally with a neck sizer, on anything I neck size for. I usually only neck size about half the length of the neck. 300WM is the only exception I do for now. I am lucky and have a fairly decent chamber with this.

I got to thinking when you index your cases, how are you doing it? If you are just laying the case in the action the same way then closing the bolt, that is not indexing in a true form. How much does the case turn when the xtractor or bolt facegrabs it when you rotate the bolt closed. IMHO, you need to take the bolt out, index the case , then push it all the way into the chamber, then replace the bolt. Single shots are bit more user friendly than a bolt gun when indexing. This may be why your FL sized cases are shooting better than a neck sized case.

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Vassal posted this 23 April 2010

yes I push it in with the bolt. I am certain that they are not EXACTLY indexed. I will not be able to index like that with Mosins (except the one that already has the sprung extractor) I used to push them in but after actually getting one with a sprung extractor, and being forced to consider buying several bolt heads with extractors at 17-18 bucks a piece (Which I need for spares anyway) I decided it wasn't worth it. Maybe I was wrong.

Thanks for the help.

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7mmxbolt posted this 23 April 2010

Vassel, I am going to suggest you try this using your RCBS FL sizer die. Back the die off and adjust it in small increments all the while examining the case neck after every adjustment. You will probably need a magnifying glass to see what is taken place. Only adjust it to the point that you can see you are only neck sizing 3/4 down the neck. If you feel confident, adjust it down a tad more but stay away from where the neck meets the shoulder. This will insure you are not touching the shoulder. The key here is to not disturb the shoulder by reforming it to the die. Make sure you trim all your brass to the “EXACT” same length. This will allow for each round to see the same amount neck tention. If you have what you feel is an optimal charge use it.

Now take a fired case and one of your bullets, perferably without the GC on it.  Hand seat the bullet in the case and chamber it in the rifle. Remove and measure the OAL, either at the tip of the bullet or off the ojive. Better to measure the ojive for it will give you a much better idea how far to seat the bullet as the ojive is what touches the lands and grooves. Do this a few times until you are confident you have a consistant measurement. With that measurement, add .020 to it and seat a bullet in a prepared case. Chamber the round in the firearm to make sure you can still close the action. If it is too tight, seat it another .002 deeper in the case and retry until you can close the action. You will be forcing the bullet into the lands and finish seating the bullet into the case. This will give you the best possible alignment for the case & bullet in your chamber.

When you get to the range have at least 25 rounds ready for fire. Use a target that has 5 points of aim and fire each round in a “round robin” format. This will insure each round will see the same variable and represent what you will truley see from a cold clean barrel to a warm fouled barrel. Keep in mind when you are done firing these round that you do NOT clean the barrel and leave it fouled. As long as you have no leading there is no need to clean. Think of it as seasoning the barrel like you would a cast iron frying pan.

If you try what I am suggesting, let us know what your results are and we can take from there. If you can post a target, that would be ideal.

I am willing to bet that with all the knowledge on this site we can get that rifle shooting better than you ever thought imaginable.

 

Bill

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Vassal posted this 23 April 2010

I will try that, Though I will post the results in the other post I started

MOSINS AND THE PURSUIT OF EXCELENCE

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=5775&forum_id=49>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=5775&forumid=49

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JetMech posted this 23 April 2010

Vassal wrote: Yes, I guess I will just keep shooting and resign myself to not TRULY understanding what is going on. Understanding will come with time (trigger time), examination of results, carefull notes, and thoughtful consideration. You'll get there.

As to “If the shoulder moves = too much headspace right,", the 7.62X54R normally headspaces on the rim. Rimless cases headspace on the shoullder. By neck sizing, you achieve a level of headspacing on the shoulder, and if you always either neck size or partially F/L size, you'll maintain that headspace on your cartridges.

Indexing: I seat bullets in my Springfield to engage the rifling .030. If bolt rotation caused th case to rotate, it would have shown when I extracted the case. In this case the bullet would have rotated back and forth in the case, but I see no such evidence. Even if yours do rotate, it will relatively consistant and, IMO, is worth your effort.

Just my $.02.

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tturner53 posted this 25 April 2010

Shot my unsized loads today. Can't really call it a success, but did get one 4 shot group I liked. 3 shots went into 2 1/2” and a fourth made it 3 1/2 “. That was with the Lee Factory crimp, light crimp. The uncrimped had about a 2” horizontal dispersion but 12” vertical! I think that tells the whole story right there. My guess is I'll end up neck sizing a little bit, but need a die that doesn't work the brass so much. The inside diameter of my fired cases is an easy .32.

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Vassal posted this 25 April 2010

Yes my Russian guns (with PPU brass turne for consistancy only) will hold .317 {+MAYBE a smidge} And my Finnish will hold .315 even. They seem to be a bit touchy but accuracy can be obtained. It just isn't easy. ;}

I cast up some LBT's and Lee 155-2r's last night, lubed and chacked/sized them today. I will be trying some experiments intended to assertain whether it is the shoulder or the body that is causin troubles. I will then try to minimally “touch” that part and see what happens. I have decided to remove the expander balls in my sizing dies and use the Lyman M-die exclusively for now. I will continue to shoot. I will continue to report back here.

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CB posted this 27 April 2010

I have one well loved milsurp type of rifle, a Spanish FR8, I shoot the cast bullets “as cast", I tumble lube them with Xlox and load them up. These shoot better than any of the bullets I tried to size, even when I sized them out to .311, for this 308 rifle.

This rifle was shot a lot, from when it was a Mauser 98, then converted to the FR8 in 308 Win (Cetme or lightly loaded) It was lovingly clean religiously as well as vigorously. It has seen better days, but is a nice shooter and great for plinking.

I used to cast the chambers and that high tech approach, but with older, used military rifles, it's easier to just use “as cast". I am not sure it that method would work in anything gas operated.

Jerry

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