Well, I have been noticing that when I FL size my brass (7.62x54r) that I get better groups, And today I did a couple of small tests and it remained true. When I first started neck sizing only I was CERTAIN that I saw an improvement. Looking back, It could have been other things (new press, technique, scale and more) This is counterintuitive; I don't get it. This cartridge IS rimmed, Could the rim and the “formed” shoulder be batt'ling for headspace?
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Vassal, Is the rifle in question a Nagant or the SVD Sniper rifle?
As you are probably fully aware there could be any one of many different reason for your accuracy to deminish by just neck sizing alone. I have always had much better accuracy neck sizing only as long as I had proper head spacing. Do you know what you have for head space, case rim to bolt face? If you do in fact have minimal HS you could very well be right in assuming that the shoulder & case rim is fighting each other. Unless your using a full blown charge you should only need .0005 - .001 HS.
When you do FL size how much are you bumping the shoulder back or are you staying away from it altogether? Sounds as though by FL sizing your bumping the shoulder back enough to give the cartridge the room it needs because of minimal or no HS at the bolt face. Do you notice a differance in bolt lift when NS only and FL sizing?
Is there a chance you are using different brands of brass and the rim thickness are different causing an inconsistant HS issue?
Just trying to lay some thoughts out on the table. Once your brass is fire formed to the chamber there should be no reason to FL size except for maybe every 4-5 reloads at which point you would want to anneal anyways. But the fact that the accuracy improves FL sizing leads me to believe there just may be a HS issue.
Bill
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I don't know about a measurement for headspace, But what I do know is that the rifles that seem to be benefiting from FL are those that show the SLIGHTEST change from before and after firing. Meaning the “lines” of the shoulder move little if at all. My FL die is set to touch the shellholder. I have not tried moving it around much. I have aleways een a bit baffled by headspace in these MOSIN rifles. THe rim fits so tightly behind the extractor that I dont see how it could possibly space from the rim. I am using all PPU brass from the same bag. I also put them in with the headstamp in the same direction each time. (by the way- the rifle that is shooting the best also has a weak/sprung extractor. Relevant? MAybe.) ALSO the rifle that I first started N sizing only, and believed I was getting a very marked improvement, is the ONE of these guns that shows the GREATEST difference before and after firing. PErhaps a test with that rifle is in order. OH DARN:riflebr:
Headspace Masters please comment! :kilroy:
I guess I should try setting the FL die to just touch the shoulder, and then use the N die to size the whole neck.
Stuff like this drives me crazy. I can't stand to not comprehend what is going on!
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I'm loading up a batch today with no sizing at all. These cases are once fired in my MN and marked for orienting. I'm using a GB custom 316299, a modified Lyman 314299 that are .316/.305. A dummy round at 3” OAL chambers fine and engraves a little on the rifling. I'm seating the Gator checks by hand and tumble lubing with LLA. Some will get a Lee Factory Crimp Die crimp, some won't, for comparison. Once I shoot them I'll report. My goal is to eliminate case and bullet sizing if possible, others have done it with great success.
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TT be sure to write about your results. Interested Minds want to know.
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Just my take on milsurps. Most, not all, of them have a bit larger than modern sporting rifle chambers and throats. Thus enabling them to still shoot with minute of body accuracy for long term shooting between cleanings. The 20 rounds I shot this past weekend may not even get the neck sized as bullet fit in the case is pretty good, slip fit. I still really need to do a chamber cast on my M39. I suspect with just what I have observed in the 20 rounds that the brass I have and the chamber, that a .310-.311 bullet was meant for it. BUT, the throat and groove depth demand a .313+ for good shooting with cast. I load most all of my milsurps first firing brass to engage the rifling or throat, to hold the case against the bolt face. I find this to be of some benefit in brass growth, moves brass at the shoulder rather than at the web. After that I usuaully just size about 1/2 of the neck If I can get by with it. The bolt closing on a loaded round was , just enough to be felt when the lugs were in fully locked. The opening of the bolt on a fired round was just as smooth and easy of any modern sporting rifle. I don't index my cases as the games i play with my milsurps, time won't allow it. I used to think it quite silly to do so. The more I think about it the more sense it does make though on an out of line, or off center chamber. I would think FL sizing would just make firing in the off center chamber do the opposite of what one wants? I mean you fire the round and the brass “bends” to fit the “bent” chamber. Then you run it through a FL die and straighten it back out. Then shoot it in the bent chamber thus bending it again, indexing cases all along the way. The same goes for a lot of neck sizing, that is why I partial size the necks when I can. As long as they will feed, chamber and shoot good. LOL, I still find it quite enetertaining what lengths we will go to try to make these old war horses shoot with CB's. Though more than once when we find a combo the gun likes the will out shoot a lot of modern guns. Interesting thread once agin Vassal, stay after it. jeff
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One thing that has always worked for me anyways with cast bullets is, provided there is no mag to contend with is to NS only after the initial fire forming and seat that bullet into the lands as far as possible and allow the action to finish seat the bullet into the case. One, it allows the bullet to provide a good tight seal in the bore and two, it helps the bullet to align itself in the lands & grooves. However, there is a balancing act between what is to far to go based on how easy it is to close the action for proper & full battery. But that can be controlled with neck tention if need be. Not to mention I certainly would not do this with a full blown load as chamber pressures would surely be excessive. You would absoulty want to rework up the load to find the optimal charge weight and to insure you remain within safe pressure limits. I do this in a couple of my rifles with a hard cast bullet “25 bhn” that is sized .003 over groove diameter with excellant results. This is a break action that has .001 head space at the firing pin plug and the case head is flush with the end of the barrel.
Not to blow my own horn here but I am talking about 200 yard accuracy with a 0.532 CTC 4 shot group.
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7mm, a little hijack here if it's ok? Is that an H&R/NEF you're getting such great accuracy from? I'd like to know the particulars of that combo, if you care to share them. Maybe start a new thread, Handi Rifle accuracy. I'm always messing with one of these, right now fighting a .243 barrel I just got.
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I am always to reduce work(I do HATE work),so I full lenght size,with carbide dies pistol rounds ( no lubing and cleaning) and lube size full lenght and clean brass for semiauto rifles.
In all other situation I just neck size,with traditional dies or Neil Jones collet dies and last but not least use the Lee collet sizer dies.
I even use neck sizer Lyman dies in 45 /70 caliber,and 458 Lott.
I have two marlin 95,an Uberti Highwall and a Chiappa cavalry Sharps,and the neck sized brass is perfectly intercangeable.in those four guns.
Luck or moderate pressure cast bullet loads?
An accurate Winchester 70 Heavy Barrel 308 shoots well both full lenght sized brass and neck sized brass,Lapua brass,the best ,it needs NO case prepping.
Mi opinion is that accurate rifles and GOOD cartridge cases shoot well independently from the sizing system I use.
I believe good bullets and reasonable powder charges are more important.
And ,of course,you must know beforehand what kind of accuracy to expect from the different rifles you have.And better use the system your Mosin like best,mine likes the Lee collet sizer,die.
If memory serves me I use the same lee die for the 303BR and 7.5Swiss.
I put sow ears in the stew and own no silk purses.
A boar ham, cut into small pieces,is slowly cooking in the pot over the woodstove,with onions,mushrooms and riesling Oltrepò Pavese white wine.
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7mm, a little hijack here if it's ok? Is that an H&R/NEF you're getting such great accuracy from? I'd like to know the particulars of that combo, if you care to share them. Maybe start a new thread, Handi Rifle accuracy. I'm always messing with one of these, right now fighting a .243 barrel I just got.
The rifle I am speaking about is a T/C Encore Prohunter with a Bergara barrel in 300 WM. The rifle has been accurized with all of Mike Bellm stuff which I took care of myself to include a 13 oz trigger job. Pop on over to this thread for details on what I am using.
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HAs anybody else had a gun (rimmed caliber or not) that shot BETTER with FL sized brass.
Anyone know if it makes any sense to question the “interplay” of the shoulder and the rim on a Fire formed and rimmed case?
I am using the RCBS neck sizing die for this caliber. I guess it could be a bad one. Perhaps a Lee collet die would be better. I suppose I need a concentricity guage, but I am driving myself crazy already :caution:
I know these guns can shoot. I should probably just be pleased with getting the results that I am. Its just a matter of time untill I get there with cast. It feels pretty good to shoot under an inch at 100yd with iron sites on a Mosin Nagant. Especially when some of the guys next to me are shooting modern rifles with scopes less succesfully.
BUT on the other hand, my pursuit is excellence. Excellence can come in many and varied forms. I am following an aspiration to knowledge about succesfull and precision shooting generally and the use of cast bullets specifically. For me excellence is using what I have and giving it my all untill I have achieved EVERYTHING that can be had from that particular toolset. Wether it be a Mosin, a Mauser, a BAT or an ol' Hog getter. I hope to take something and through hard work allow it to be more than it might have been before. To allow it to be something better than I or others thought it was.
OR maybe I just enjoy beating my head against the wall in a mad chase after something that can not be achieved. :thinking: Its a fifty fifty shot on that one.;)
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Please,do not ruin the walls,as your head should be pretty hard,at least as hard as mine.
Rifles that shoot too well and easily are boring to me.
When you can master the Mosin's one stage trigger and the bedding problems of the long barrel models,,if you have a new or very good barrel your Mosin must shoot very well.
The II world War barrels are very well made,better than the SMLE barrels of the same vintage made in the UK.
I almost never full lenght size my rimmed rifle cases,and never touch the shoulders,even in a Marlin 30WCF.
I had case head separations in a 375H&H CZ using RCBS FL dies,and magnum cases headspace on the belt ,as rimmed cases headspace on the rim.
I believe that brass makers(expecially during wars,) use to make short cases and rifle makers make long sloppy chambers,to chamber easily any dirty or deformed cartridge,and who cares about reloaders.
And,let me insist,do try the humble Lee collet sizer,in the other types of sizers ,the pull through expander may deform your brass.
Custom bushing Neil Jones neck sizers do not need expanding after sizing.
And your RCBS neck sizer might work your brass back and forth too much.
Very little communications between Tula,Izmash and us Die makers.
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And I have not found enough courage to get a custom throater to chamber that 200 plus grain bullet from an LBT mould
The long torpedo feed from a Lee Speed sporting rifle I cannot afford,but will not feed from the magazine of my SMLE.
It does feed well from my little 44 mosin.
And my walls are made of bricks,more than two feet thick.
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"Perhaps a Lee collet die would be better. I suppose I need a concentricity guage, but I am driving myself crazy already" Do as you please, but when you index a case that is “bent” to fit the chamber of a particular gun, that should take car of any off center issues. If you want to beat your head on a wall, get a cocentricity gauge. It will drive you nuts. Are you going to check the neck or the bullet or both? Get ready for a lot of frustration.
When you FL size and get everything back to square as we can make it, I have found them to shoot better some times than one that is just neck sized. It is better for the bullet to be in the center of the case, than to have the bullet be pointing left and the chamber off center to the right. Then you end up with twice as much 'skidding' or twice as bad off center.
Take a virgin once fired unsized case and run it through the gauge will tell you a bit about the rifles chamber.
As I mentioned above some of the lengths we go to to MAKE these things shoot. There are some good shooting milsurps out there no doubt. But the benchrest one hole accuracy at 100 is more the exception than the norm imho. Can one get get good groups from them, why sure. probably better than most of the general public can honestly get from there modern rifle. As you have already attested to above.
I have looked at the 7.62x54 case and It seems it is a good candidate for crazy stuff going on when you drag the neck back over the expander ball. It can and will pull a neck off center. I have seen this on the 22 hornet, 30-20 and 30-30. I use an under sized expander that does nothing more than hold the decap pin. I then run these cases through a Lyman M die. Poor mans way around having button sizer dies for everything.
If you are indexing I would fool with bullet seating length more than concentricity. Maybe throw in trying a partial FL sizing? Run the brass into the FL die , but have it just short of touching the neck shoulder junction?
How much is your FL sizing die sizing the brass down? My RCBS sizes my 7.65x53 and 7.62x54 down to hold a 308 bullet. Once again and as mentiond by the gent above, sizing dies are being forced down our throats on these calibers that size properly for very few if any of these.
If I was better on a lathe than just knowing enough to be dangerous i would have fixed the issue already. A firend of mine is a good machinist, but at $20 per hour I will figure it out one way or anoither.
jeff
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AHHHHHH!!!
Great. Now not only do I need a concentricity guage, a better understainding of headspace, but also a better understanding of sizing dies! It seems such a simple thing,,,
I have been thinking about the expander ball pulling with differing resistance back through the neck (thus stretching the shoulder differently) but I lubed the necks and figured it was good enough. I will need to check into this. (I do have .310 expanders in the dies)
Perhaps I should remove the expander and use my M-die!?? That seems at least a little more controlled
I found other posts deriding the use of expander balls.:shock: I have never heard of that before.
Clearly this will take some testing. I will have to measure new brass against fired brass (from each rifle) against fired then resized brass. As a student, I simply don't have the money for a concentricity guage right now, and it will likely be awhile (I need some supplies). BUT I can at least check the amount that each shoulder is “moving.:"
WOWEE. It has been frustrating, but even ten years ago it would have taken umm ten years,, of trial and error, to learn about all this stuff. The Internet has sure increased the learning curve. Of course my stomach is “in my throat” and I feel a bit vertiginous.:puke:.
Thanks Guys- I wil continue to shoot! - Hard fought victory and all that,
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I know these guns can shoot. I should probably just be pleased with getting the results that I am. Its just a matter of time untill I get there with cast. It feels pretty good to shoot under an inch at 100yd with iron sites on a Mosin Nagant. Especially when some of the guys next to me are shooting modern rifles with scopes less succesfully.
But then again!
Aside from accurizing the rifle, once you find your OCW “Optimal Charge Weight” with your powder, the remaining tuning is bullet seating and that's pretty much it. But the key is finding that OCW that allows for the round to hit the same point of impact regardless of the conditions as long as your case prep remains consistent which is probably the most important factor to consider. Your load could be balancing on that fine line between good and bad depending on the environment it is faced with. If your load development is done using the Audette ladder system, have a look at this site and see if it makes any sense to you. This is how I do it and it never fails me.
Again just trying to lay some options out on the table to be considered.
Bill
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I should be clear. I am NOT getting the bragadocoius groups listed above with cast.
“it is just a matter of time untill I get there,"
I don't know what sort of accuracy I will ultimately achieve with cast, I meant to imply that I am confidant that I will gleen the “best” that the rifles (and my anxious body and bespectacled eyes) can offer.
I HAVE been bragging up the groups that I am getting from my Mosins for awhile now. It has taken alot of stress (and trips to the range) over the past year and a'half, refining my shooting and loading technique and learning from others here, in order to achieve something I am pleased with. I hope that it will be accepted in the spirit in which it is offered.
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I sure have a tougher and harder head than yours.
Invest a few greenbacks in a Lee collet die,study their instructions in their web site
My collectin of costly bras prepping instruments are gathering dust in a big box.
If your flash holes are not concentric in the cartridges, throw them away.
And if your loading press is a good one ,you can easily regulate the amount of sizing of your neck.
And,if you have been bitten by the accuracy bug,do not go astray,following the syrens songs of costly case prepping tool, nd flea's hair measuring tools,throw away all the inferior brass made by the gipsy heirs of dracula and ,or vodka drinking tartars,east of the Urals,
DO get the lapua brass,it needs no trimming,flash hole deburring,inside meck turning ,or other magic operations,it is perfect from the factory.
The Lapua cases even nedd NO inside neck deburring for cast bullets. loading and shooting.
The original PPC cartridge,has nothing magic in its project,it is a derivation of the 7.35 Carcano brass captured by the communists in Finnland, shotrened and used by Kalashnikov in his gun,transformed in the 220 Russian target round. and finally made into 6 and 22 PPC ,USING LAPUA BRASS. By Pindell & Palmisano.
Only the very best US made match brass is comparable to Lapua or Norma regular brass.
And being a ferocious admirer of the US of A,or ,to be honest a part
of the US of A,you guess which part,i hate to admit that the Finn brass is better than the standard american bass.
PS if you are so unlucky to load for semiauto bottleneck rifles,you Must full neck size,trim the cases etcoetera.,But I still use the lapua brass in my ugly duckling.SKS.
But she sports US front and rear sights ,the issue sights were good for the hordes of oriental cannon fodder, not for this old ( fart) gentleman,
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I have been using “cheap” brass.
I am trying to sort out what EXACTLY is going on in the chamber / dies, so that I can better understand what is happening rather than just go with what works. I can tell that if I can really Understand this problem that I will have gained a very beneficial bit of knowledge - for all calibers.
I have been using dry-erase markers trying to set my FL die to just touch the shoulder, BUT it is almost all the way down when I do so.
I guess the issue is with slightly non-concentric chambers OR dies, OR both. BUT I thought that (like a poster has written) that Indexing the cases when firing should have made those imperfections a mute point. I guess that if it is “crooked” and then the neck die straightens the neck only it MAY actually force the bullet into a MORE crooked position. FL sizing allows room to move, thus allowing a better entry into the bore.
Part of the problem is I can't tell where the dies or chambers are contacting, and where they are touching first. And of course not even understanding how the headspace works on these rifles isn't helping (i.e. I can't see how they space from anything other than the extractor, it is just too tight)
BUT What are the chances it would happen in EACH of Four seperate rifles, and NOT be a common issue with other shooters (who seem to nearly universally get better groups with N sizing.)
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vassal
I really have not been following each reply to this thread, however it seems the problem could be a barrel bulge in the throat or very starting area of “freebore” ( the area just where the rifling begins). The FL casing would give a straight line support to bullet as it entered rifling improving accuracy. Neck sizing would miss direct bullet into bulge and cause deformation of nose and be detrimental to accuracy.
It is something to check maybe with a chamber cast or shooting into a medium so you could recover some bullets and possibly see a visual difference between bullets from FL cases and NS cases.
Good Luck Bob D
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A chamber cast is going to tell the whole story whether there is problem in the throat area or not. Just have to ask this, but did you or anyone else ever get a cast bullet stuck in the barrel after firing it?
As far as knowing how much your bumping the shoulder back on your brass this is a tool I use and I really don't know of another product out there that will give you as precise a measurement then this.
Simply setting up your dies per the instructions only gets you in the ball - park. Typically by doing so, your probably bumping them back as much as .004-.006 and over working the brass more than it needs to and shortening the case life. You don't need to buy expensive brass to get good results if you know how to properly take care of what you have. Staying away from the shoulder with your die is generally going to be a better proposition unless your die was made from the same reamer as your barrel was. Off the shelf dies are made to SAMMI spec's not your rifle. Good enough for minute of DEER but not for bench rest results.
For what it's worth, take your rifle to a gunsmith and have him/her measure your headspace so you know where you stand and can eliminate all this guesswork and focus on the root cause to your problem. Headspace on that rifle is measured from the case head to the bolt face PERIOD! In addition, you typically only need .0005 to .001 MAX! Any more and you will be struggling with this thing until the cows come home. Now if by chance you have excessive headspace and your bumping the shoulder back your only adding to the problem and spinning your wheels. You have to understand what you are dealing with in order to fix the problem if there even is one.
Not every rifle made is a shooter but unless there is something seriously wrong with it, it should give you 1” MOA with the right cartridge you assemble. However, before you can get to that point you have to understand what you have to work with. Not knowing what you have for HS or how much your bumping your brass shoulders back ain't gonna get you any closer to your goal than you are right now, bottom line! Moreover, the chamber cast is a must if you want to shoot lead out of it and do yourself a favor and have that gunsmith take peek down the barrel while they are at it. It just may save you a lot of time, money, and aggravation as appose to chasing something that isn't there.
Sorry if I sound cocky but I don't mean to be. Just that sometimes a good o'l fashion reality check can help sometimes. Good luck with whatever you decided.
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