"OLD POWDER"

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  • Last Post 17 May 2010
KRITTUR posted this 31 March 2010

LONG STORY HOW THIS HAPPENED, BUT BOTTOM LINE IS THAT I HAVE DISCOVERED SOME POWDER LEFT IN MY ATTIC BY ONE OF MY SONS THAT IS PROBABLY 20 TO 25 YEARS OLD.  IN NEW SEALED FACTORY CONTAINERS.

WINCHESTER 747   AND HODGEDON 4227.  BEING IN THE ATTIC MEANS THAT IT HAS ENDURED SOME HOT TEMPS IN THE SUMMER, MAYBE 120 DEGREES AND SOME COLD ONES IN THE WINTERS.  THIS IS A DRY CLIMATE HERE IN COLO.

I HAVE EXPERIENCED ONCE A SUPPLY OF SURPLUS 4831 THAT I HAD BEEN SHOOTING ON AND OFF FOR 30 OR MORE YEARS THAT DID GET A RUSTY LOOK TO IT AND A DIFFERENT SMELL.  I DUMPED IT, AND REPLACED IT.

BOTH OF THESE POWDERS, THE 748 AND H4227 LOOK JUST LIKE THE PRESENT DAY POWDERS LOOK, AND I CAN NOT NOTICE ANY SMELL THAT IS UNUSUAL.  THE 748 IN PARTICULAR IS A BRIGHT AND SHINY AS CAN BE.

I HAVE LIVED A LONG LIFE BY NOT MAKING ANY REALLY STUPIDS CHOICES, AND I AM TEMPTED TO KEEP THIS POWDER AND USE IT, PARTICULARLY THE BALL WIN. 748.  IF I LIVE ANOTHER 20 YEARS, I WOULD STILL BE SHOOTING OUT OF THESE 8 LB CANNISTERS AS I HAVE ONE DOWN IN THE HOUSE WHERE TEMPS HAVE BEEN MODERATE THAT I AM STILL USING.  SO SOME OF THAT POWDER COULD BE 50 YRS OLD BEFORE IT IS USED.

WOULD LIKE TO HERE SOME ADVISE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS KNOWLEDGEABLE ON THIS SUBJECT.

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT---AN OLD, BUT PERSISTANT SHOOTER

                                                                     KRITTUR

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Buffalo Bill posted this 31 March 2010

I have not had experience with a ball powder going bad.  Of course, it has not been available nearly as long as many of the “stick” powders.  My experience has been with a military surplus stick powder having a burning rate similar to IMR 4895.  First sign I noticed that it was going bad were “rust” flecks in the powder.  It still shot OK.  However, when I fired some 7 x 57 rounds that I had loaded 19 YEARS previously, most of the cases split in the neck area.  There were longitudinal cracks as well as circumferential cracks at the junction of the neck and shoulder (which was the location of the base of the bullets).  One case was so bad that the whole neck went up the bore with the bullet.  I had been chronographing the loads, and the velocities appeared normal.  But, after losing the one case neck up the bore (and another stuck in the chamber) I quit shooting, went home, and pulled all the remaining bullets.  The deteriorating powder had caused the cases to become extremely brittle, and as such, potentially dangerous due to gas leakage.  The loaded cases had been stored in 20-round boxes.  One had been stored with bullets up and one had been stored with rounds lying horizontally for some time, though I do not know for how long. 

Perhaps if the loaded rounds had been stored for those 19 years with the bullets down I would have experienced severe brittleness in the case base.  If so, one could possibly have a terrible accident due to a case rupture near its base.  I do not intend to do an experiment to find out.

I suspect your powder is OK.  You could load up a few moderate loads with each powder and fire them to check.  You may also wish to plainly mark the powder cans that there is some question about the contents.  Also, you may wish to plainly mark your reloads.  And, at least with the 4227 loads, you may wish to store them with the bullets up.

You may also want to do a search on this forum for some previous posts on this subject.

 

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corerf posted this 01 April 2010

I have shot much very old powder. Smell is first indicator and yo have said it smells normal.

Not white.. good.

Load some 4227 in a handgun with known good brass. Load something, if possibkle, your familiar with the velocities and attributes. Test fire a round or two. If the chrono says thing look ok, and the extraction and cases look ok, I say run it. I would NOT load for long term storage though. If you plink, load plinkers and use them sooner than later. Don't expect the powder to continue to offer the same leggs it has today, now that it has had years to deteriorate. Use it up sooner than later if life permits.

Thats my .02, good luck with it. I have had grate luck.

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gunarea posted this 01 April 2010

Hey Krittur

    You are correct to check the smell, nitro will be aromatic. If the smell is there, the nitro is viable. High and low ambient temperatures have little effect on smokeless powders provided the container shows no deterioration on the inside. Most smokeless propellants suffer the greatest volatility loss from UV bleaching. Moisture only causes a loss with repeated cycles of evaporation. Cartridges stored correctly will loose no more power than the individual components themselves. Primers are considered the greatest culprits. 

   US military storage, permits the usage of ammo after periods of thirty years. Personally, I am presently using and have used powder in excess of thirty years old with no hesitation. The last can of Bullseye I opened is a square metal can manufactured by Hercules with a price sticker that said $3.50. My dwindling supply of 2400 is coming out of a bright red round metal keg, also from Hercules.

    This information is offered with no disrespect intended, nor to minimize the excellent safety concerns already offered. You are wise to seek education.

                                                                                                                       Roy 

    

Shoot often, Shoot well

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silverbuzzard posted this 27 April 2010

Think of it, powder sits in loaded rounds in Africa and NAM  and other heated areas and is trucked around in hot trucks etc

The advice above by fellow members is good and sound.

If it smells alright use it. If it goes phhlllewwww ! when you shoot the first one, stop and use it to brew beer

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CB posted this 27 April 2010

If at anytime you have a concern over the age quality of any old powder, a visual inspection FIRST should be implemented. When powder starts to deteriorate, the nitro in the powder is breaking down into acid (probably Nitric, which it was made from). This could burn the mucus lining of your nose, or if severe enough burn your lungs. Use caution sniffing old powder.

I've used rusty looking old powder with no problems. I knew an old timer who used all the deteriorated powder he could find for free, or practically nothing. He'd wipe it down with wet towels, let it dry and shoot it with fine results................Dan

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CB posted this 29 April 2010

=When I find a can of old powder that is getting gray or white, I pour the stuff into my compost pile. It helps to put nitrates in the compost. If it is not white or gray and doesn't smell like vinegar, then I shoot it.

Jerry

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galenaholic posted this 29 April 2010

It is my understanding that ball type powders store much better because they are a double base powder. I've had suplus 4831 and some IMR-4350 go bad, but a can of surplus H-335 is still going strong. These powders were for some reason left in my shed when I wasn't doing any shooting to speak of. The stick powders (single base) went bad but the double base H-335 is still good. In fact, I recently did some serious loa work up in a .35 Whelen with that powder and got excellent result with not only great velocity but excellent accuracy as well.

Paul B.

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testhop posted this 16 May 2010

i have 2 cans of 4198 with a price tag of 2.50 thay are the last of a lot i bought 50 years ago been useing it in a 222 allthe time not had any problums . BUFFALO BILL i think the split necks come from old brass not old powder just me i could be wrong as i have been before.

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codarnall posted this 16 May 2010

My Best Man Geo. Reis  and  author the FORTRAN program ONEGUN worked in interior ballistics at SANDIA NATIONAL LABORATORIES for 30 plus years.  He's gone now and I have lost a best friend and a fellow mentor physicist.  He's said, stored at or below room temperature the products would loose 15% of its punch every ten years.  It is often rejuvenated and that's how Hodgens essentially got in to business with military stock of 4831.  Stored in hot garages say in New Mexico I tried some Bullseye which when stuffed full in a 30-30 cartridge would hardly make it out he barrel of 94. 6” low at 50 feet.   For someone who should have known better ( in the sciences ) I couldn't figure out why the darn thing didn't blow up.  Under the microscope it was definitely BE.  Only the coloration and the density had changed.  30% by weight or more had out gassed.   Really old ammo that I have taken apart because it was weeping yellow goo, semi-liquid in fact had a few hydrogen bonds broken , turned in to a small amount of acid and away it went.    Powder burn rates are proportional to the total surface area of the grain, holes etc.  Ball powder shrinks and and the radius squared comes it to play.  With this in mind I would test it carefully and work up new loads and say if it was 4831 I call say 4832 and go from there. Charlie

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Buffalo Bill posted this 17 May 2010

Testhop, glad your 50-year old 4198 powder is still in good shape.  I suspect that it has not been subjected to harsh storage conditions for any appreciable length of time.  A lot of the .30-06 ammo loaded in WWII (65+ years ago) with stick powder is still quite reliable if it has been stored in reasonable environmental conditions.

Regarding my experience, posted above, the brass was NOT old brass.  It was once-fired, relatively new, commercial Remington and Winchester brass.  The problem was definitely the deteriorated stick powder.  Following are some more detailed notes of my experience.

On July 4, 2003 I fired some 7 x 57 cartridges that I had loaded with BL-32 military surplus stick powder (roughly equivalent to 4895) in 1984 (yes, 19 years before shooting them).  I had noticed some time before the loading (or perhaps a few years later) a few “rust” specks in the powder.  The powder did not have the odor of original solvents or acid, as I recall.  Note the picture below the descriptions of what happened when I fired the ammo.

Case #1  Second round of 5-shot group with Remington brass, first reload, 44 gr. BL-32, 120 gr. Sierra bullet, grouped 0.52” at 50 yards.  Case neck “cut” halfway through near shoulder/neck junction. (Looks about like someone had taken a hacksaw to it.)  Other four cases look OK.  Average velocity was 2826 ft/sec but with 114 ft/sec extreme spread.

Case #2  First round fired with case that showed a vertical neck split before firing.  Now shows some horizontal split starting at shoulder/neck junction. (This also happened to be where the base of the bullet was.)  Winchester brass, first reload, 42 gr. BL-32, 130 gr. Speer PSP.

Case #3  Second round fired with same load.  Case “lost” its neck.  Apparently up the bore WITH the bullet. (Yes, I checked the chamber and bore.)

Case #4  Third round fired with same load.  Case neck separated and stuck in forward end (note taper) of chamber.  Retrieved with bronze bristle brush without difficulty.

Needless to say I had enough “pushing my luck,” in the interest of the art and science of reloading.  I pulled the bullets from the remaining loaded rounds.  Interestingly, when the bullets were pulled there was sometimes a “pop,” either from very negative or positive air pressure in the case.  Also, on the inside of the case between the bullet base and the powder there was considerable green crud.  The bullet bases also showed some corrosion.  The powder clumped pretty badly.  If I remember correctly, some of the loaded rounds were stored in plastic boxes with the bullets up and these (Remington brass) did not deteriorate QUITE as badly as those stored horizontally in typical 20-round cardboard boxes.  Regardless, loading stick powder that has started to deteriorate is asking for trouble.  Apparently, the acidic fumes and/or other chemical reactions serve to corrode and/or make the brass very brittle.  Serious separations and splits happen.  Excessive pressures may also result.

DO NOT LOAD STICK POWDER THAT IS STARTING TO DETERIORATE!!  

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codarnall posted this 17 May 2010

I believe the brass you speak of was be etched away and the coloration was due to the acid and copper reaction. Brass turning a bit red at the reaction site.  My experiences we very similar except the powder (goo emulsion) had deteriorated more so.  I love this stuff!  One of the same box of factory ammo split almost 50 years ago.  The the gooey stuff was a more recent development of the same box antique ammo .

Charlie

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