WHAT DID THIS????

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  • Last Post 01 April 2010
Vassal posted this 23 March 2010

I went to the range today to get some cheap trigger time. I had loaded some ammo in my usual jacketed brass. The brass has worked well and fine for about 9 times. Since annealing I have fired them either once or twice before today, without trouble (and with good groups.) I had about fourty rounds of corrosive Bulgarian Surplus that I decided would better serve me as powder and bullets. I pulled them, Noting the average charge, and then weight sorted the bullets. When I loaded them I used several different primers behind a charge 3-4% less than the original. I seated the bullets out pretty far, unto my estimation of about on the lands but not quite; I did a quick check to make sure they weren't “jammed” and called it good. I wasn't expecting much, just trigger time. I was firing them in my M39 for jacketed which has a .313 bore - (this gun consistantly groups under an inch to as small as .6” with my “good stuff” using Hornady .312's) The surplus projectiles are .310.

I fired looked at the brass and        .......WHAT?

cleaned the chamber and looked in the barrel,,, Fired again,,,,,happened again,,,,,Broke the whole gun down right there,,,, nothing I waited and thought,, put it back together and held the gun away from me - like that was going to do some good - and let another go,, it was fine. I fired the rest and only one other exhibited the dent. the brass was only fired once since full length sizing, but it had been only neck sized since being fired last. The powder seemed really dirty, but i don't remember any trouble with the surplus when I fired it normally.

Any ideas?

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nimrod posted this 23 March 2010

Looks like a funny looking color inside the necks of those cases and maybe some powder fouling on the right standing case. Maybe not enough pressure to seal the chamber and getting some blowback? Somebody will figure it out directly, but best not be tearing up any of them Mosins, we may need'm one of these days.

Missourians For Mosins

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jppr26 posted this 23 March 2010

next time you shoot it use a marker to indicate the possition of the round so you can tell if it is in the same spot or not

also might be from too much case lube 

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hunterspistol posted this 23 March 2010

   I think that was the answer before, blowback caused by lowered pressure rounds that don't seal off the chamber when fired.

 

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Vassal posted this 23 March 2010

I always put the cases in the same way. I am nearly positive that it WAS in the same spot. That color inside is normal, just exagerated by the flash. YES the effected cases ALL had a great deal of soot on them. blow back Was my first guess also but surplus rounds are hot and the amount I reduced them does NOT equal weak pressure. I did not chrono but they felt as strong or stronger than my usual jacketed loads. THe only thing I can think is some effect dues to an extremely slow powder igniting only partially before really getting going - But I really have no Idea. I was hoping someone had seen this before. I used magnum primers on three and they were left with the flattest primers I have ever made with a Mosin. I do not really “heat it up” usually, so thats not saying much, BUT the mag primers were definitely what I would Identify as signs of a MAX load.        ???:dunce:???

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nimrod posted this 23 March 2010

Were the original rounds crimped and did you crimp your reloads? Missourians for Mosins

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JSH posted this 23 March 2010

blow back

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amb1935 posted this 23 March 2010

Same thing happened to me. Check out my thread. http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=4297&forum_id=37&page=1>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=4297&forumid=37&page=1

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Vassal posted this 24 March 2010

Yes thesurplus is crimped, and no I recently started to forego crimping. I load the bullets behind the cannalure or like MKings without one. for Top line Ammo I fiddle with the Lee FC die untill I am certain it is BArely, I mean barely touching the brass. I do this to add onother step of equalization to the neck tension and to striaghten the brass if I used the Lyman M die_ which for top line,,- I do. I did not use the expander die OR the Lee FC die on this ammo At all., Filled them seated them shot them. Ill check ouo the thread

EDIT: AH HAA. Someone has seen it before!  I can hardly believe that such a small reduction in charge was able to cause that! Also strange that the same exact load with Win Mag LR primers left the primers FLAT --Really flat! That powder must be really touchy. maybe I shouldn't change the charge at all. I doubt I will be doing that many more times, I suppose it can be safe but we really must be careful. some guys said that they often see these left by mosins -- I wonder why? I doubt reloaders are leaving their brass laying around , so may be it is the Commie' powder.  Well, That makes me think twice about using the small amount of other Bulgarian powder I have. It is SOO fine its almost like sugar! way smaller than 2400!!!!

The weird part is that these cases WERE fireformed and neck sized only!

LESSON LEARNED =======BE CAREFUL!

Thank you all

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nimrod posted this 24 March 2010

I just wonder if the powder that you were using is some type of progressive burn rate that without the crimp is starting the bullet down the barrel and then the pressure builds after you have a “leak"? Just guessing, trying to learn everything I can about these Mosins before I screw something up.

MISSOURIANS for MOSINS

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Vassal posted this 24 March 2010

thats similiar to my initial idea. I wouldn't worry too much about the MOSINS, just use confirmed info and not your own best guess with an unknown powder. UMM like I did. I thought I could lessen the load slightly, didn't think about the crimp. I clearly should have.

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JSH posted this 26 March 2010

I have seen this exact thing happen several times, all be reloaded ammo. Most of them said that it was a “reduced load” only with a known powder. One I can think of said his load was a mid to upper range load. Though after doing some talking he did say the sound and recoil was “different". My understanding from your first post is, that you pulled down some milsurp ammo for bullets and powder. Then, you “reloaded” this into your brass? An unknown powder, then using less powder in different brass, results can vary. I have read in years past of a lot of this happening. I myself either trust the milsurp or tear it down for projectiles only. There is NO way to look at a powder and say what it is. A fellow gave me some 25-06 handloads, loaded with premium bullets. Brass was a mis matched lot, then, I looked at the crimps, some were heavy and some were not......... It was supposed to have ALL been loaded with 4350. I pulled a few and some were a stick powder and some a ball powder. I pulled them all and some looked to have ball and stick powder mixed! jeff

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Stainlessbutcher posted this 01 April 2010

another thing I haven't seen mentioned. If you pulled the powder from one case and used it in another, the internal dimensions of the cases may be different enough to lessen the pressure even if it was loaded with the same grain weight of powder. I understand that milsurp cases are built heavier than civvy cases which means they have less volume thus creating higher pressures with less powder....yeah, complicated, but I think you get the idea.

Butch.

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canalupo posted this 01 April 2010

I believe it is a powder problem or primer. If you pulled bullets and reloaded the powder it may be a moisture problem causing the powder in a round to burn inconsistantly. I would try new powder from one of the major makers and see if the problem still occurs. Old military powder is designed to be used in adverse conditions but still gets damp. I have also had problems with CCI primers lighting off some rounds and damp primers from winchester. It could be a starage problem at the supplier or from the factory.

Good luck

Bob D

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