HOWDY:D The local Cast Shooters told me about the Military Rifle matches with the CBA. I have an Enfield P/14 the shoots pretty good so I decided to use the same rifle in all of the classes except big bore. In order to do so I mounted a different removable sight and scope mounts. To do so I had to modify the ears that hold the issue sight. The idea was to use the issue sight for Issue Class, then mount the Parker Sight for Modified and then remove the Parker for the Scope Class. Although this allows me to use the same rifle for everything I did take some metal off the ears in order to add my extra sights. Do You/all consider mounting a different sight a modification? When the mod sight is removed all that is there is the mount. The same with the scope. Any way my paper work should be ready by June and I would like to know if I can play in this sandbox. THANKS:)
MILITARY RIFLE
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- Last Post 30 November 2010
I'm sure you can play, are you going to shoot postal matches? The catch might be using it in the 'issue' classification. Hopefully someone with more knowledge on this will jump in.
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It's a touchy one to some of the “pure-anista's",but at my Pasco Wa. matches if i looked at your rifle when used in “issue class” and the sight didnt have any advantage over the way it came and was only cosmetic metal alterations i'd be OK with it.How many military rifles shot in issue class are 100% as issued?,probably 3/4 of them have mixed parts.
George Damron
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The Cherry Ridge Gun Club in Sussex County, NJ has monthly military rifle matches. Cast bullets may be fired at the 200 yard stages. We don't use cast at 300 because the plunging angle of low velocity rounds coming into the pits would be unsafe.
These modified Infantry Trophy matches are fashioned after an event held at Camp Perry during Service Rifle week. But because of size and range constraints they have scaled it down for our uses. The event has two man fire teams engaging three scaled targets equivalent to 600, 500, 300 and 200 yards. The scaled down targets, simulate the 600 and 500 yard stages at 300 yards. The 300 and 200 yard stages are fired with full scale targets.
At each stage shooters are already loaded and in firing position when the targets appear, and have one minute to obtain as many hits as possible on their group of targets. At the simulated 600 and 500 yard stages a scaled down Army “E” kneeling silhouette is used and firing is done from the prone position. At the 300 yard stage a full scale Army “D” prone silhouette, is fired at from a sitting position. At 200 yard the “D” silhouette is engaged while standing.
Each two-man fire team is limited to 128 record rounds. Excessive hits are deducted from the score. Scoring is hit or miss. At the 600 yard target each hit is worth 4 points, at 500 3 points, at 300 2 points and at 200 1 point. "Bonus points” are awarded for the number of targets at each distance, having more than 6 hits. The bonus is the number of targets with more than 6 hits squared. That is, 3 targets (3X3=9, 2X2=4) and so on.
If you have three targets with more than 6 hits at 600 yards, your bonus would be 3X3X4 or 36. So there is a great deal of strategy to figure out and in the event of a malfunction ammunition sharing. Because of the distance multiplier winning teams do almost all of their shooting at the longer ranges.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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THANKS FOR THE REPLY:D You/all have a lot of versatility in your matches. It looks like the first match I will be able to attend will be the one in Puyallup My form#6 won't be ready for the match in Spokane in May or maybe it will. Bev Pinney told me about the matches in Pasco and Iam looking forward to one. Postal matches sound like the way to go up here and I can only hope to compete in a 600 yard match with cast. I think of new shooters like pin balls. Just jump in and get pushed around untill you settle in a spot or bench that everyone is good with. Shut up and shoot:D Anyway I'll buy 1/2 dozen molds and see if I can get my guns to shoot. Thanks again.:dude:
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Which Puyallup match will you be attending. The first match there is this Saturday. I'll be there.
Bill W
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Since I got a double post I'll alter the 2nd one.
A 314299 mould may be all you need for your rifle. It's .30 caliber (.314 dia) and around 200 grains and those seem to work in a wide range of rifles.
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Strictly interpreting the rules that would not be allowed for Issue Class.
<1> Issue - Any military service rifle issued to any nation and legally sold as surplus in the US and in strictly as issued configuration. The only modifications allowed to the Issue rifle are -- front sight height may be raised or lowered as long as the original profile is kept, the sling and swivel may be removed and a slip on recoil pad may be used.
However, in the real world a modification like this --- a change in the ears of the front sight so you can also use it in the Mod Iron Class and clearly would not give you any advantage over the Issued sights --- I think that you will find most Match Directors will allow this and be happy to have you there. But be aware that if you consistently start winning these matches or setting national records, another competitor could challenge this, and probably successfully this modification.
I hope you can make it down to a match at Paul Bunyan in Puyallup --- great group of cast bullet shooters there. Wally
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Thanks for the information:D I'll look into the 314299 and try a few different powders. The first match I attend will depend on Uncle Sam. I have filled out my form #6 and sent it away. Now I have to wait to hear back from those folks over to Washington. I haven't touched the front sight on my Enfield as our local matches will not allow a front sight mod. I'll probably just bed the action and shoot in the modified groups. That way there are no issues. Do you/all offer regular cast shooting with the Military Matches. Anyway look for the guy dressed in Red and White shooting a .303. Patriotic EH!:cool:
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Mitch does a good job of interpretting the rules and is flexible as long as there's no advantage given if something isn't black and white.
Mitch is the match director for Puyallup.
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If you want to get the full potential with the least hassel and expense out of your P/14 in using cast go to the LBT site advertised on this Forum and give it a study. Veral Smith makes the best molds for cast bullets that are second to none according to many people on this Forum. I've read numerous postings here that casters wish they had started with his molds instead of buying several commercial brands that weren't even close to the tolerances of LBT molds. To a person they say they would have saved time and money if they had done so. Mr. Smith makes his molds to fit exactly your firearm by having you slug the chamber, throat and first part of the barrel. All this and other good information is available at the LBT site. He makes an excellent bullet lube as well that also is second to none. (LBT Blue)
Chuck :}
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Howdy I haven't posted in this thread as I was given a stack of F/S reading. The issues start about 1983 and go from there. Anyway a lot of questions are on my mind?? How does one get a “As Issued” military rifle to shoot under 3/4 of an inch? I can't even see any rifling at the muzzle end of my old enfield. Another Question?? From day one, when I started casting lead ETC. I was told "Every .001 you size the bullet results in a MOA loss in accuracy". From what I read you/all Bump, squeeze, pinch, roll and generally change most everything about the cast bullet. Oh yea. What's with the mold companies. RCBS for example lists sizes with Liontype. If I cast just W/W in my new 165SIL mold they cast 314 and the G/C won't seat with out shaving lead. What I have is a variable mold for 309 that works pretty good in my shot out enfield. If I don't beat the mold I can see light through the holes after the mold is closed. I keep trying a mix untill I get annoyed and send it back. Any pointers on how to hog out a 314 sizing die to 315/316?? I have an idea but would like to hear how you/all do it :D I would post all these questions in the sub forums but not to much going on in these forums and I just go 2 inches of new snow:X Anyhow, I have a prone gun that doesn't shoot as good as the “As Issued” rifles I read about. I drag it out in the snow and see if I can get it to shoot my new sil bullet. At your service:dude:
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If you want an “as issued” rifle to shoot under 3/4 inch... you will test a bunch of rifles before you settle on one to shoot. They just aren't that common.
As far as sizing bullets and losing MOA, I feel that's an old wive's tale. I size .315 bullets down to .310 and average 1.5 MOA. That's slightly smaller than the 10 ring of the military score targets.
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Does the modified class allow a military rifle that has been rechambered/rebored to a different cartridge if the barrel is the original? Say for instance a MN 91/30 in .35 Russian?
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Does the modified class allow a military rifle that has been rechambered/rebored to a different cartridge if the barrel is the original? Say for instance a MN 91/30 in .35 Russian?
Nope --- in all the Military Classes the chamber, throat and bore can not be changed and must be an issued barrel.
Wally
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As far as sizing bullets and losing MOA, I feel that's an old wive's tale. I size .315 bullets down to .310 and average 1.5 MOA. That's slightly smaller than the 10 ring of the military score targets.
I size the 314299 down from 0.315 to 0.309 with no ill effects. The bullet in lubed and gas checks seated in a Lyman 0.315 die; then the bullets are sixed to 0.309 in a Lee sizer. In my experience, the nly was to get dcent accuracy is to fit the bullet to the thoat. I am lucky to have a full set of Eagan 30 cal dies.
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i'll agree 100% with billwnr and Citiboy-
I take a Lyman 245g 8mm design (#323378) cast of WW's at .323 and size down to .314 in one step in a standard lyman sizer then turn it over and push the nose down in a 308 die and shoot them in Russian Mosin Nagants.I do seat the GC's and fill the lube groove in a .323 die first so they wont collapse while swaging down.It holds under 2" much of the time with the issue sights and does as well as about any other bullet.
I agree oversizing (if there is such a thing) is overstated,filling the loose military leades is more important.So sometimes not sizing a bullet and getting better accuracy is because it's larger and fits the throat,not because the mechanical act of sizing would have ruined it.(forgetting the old Ideal “cutting type” sizers) Don't believe all the old Al Miller “lube but don't size" stuff from Handloader Mag.<G>
Although i am baffled that my long and worn throat Turk 8 x 57 can sometimes shoot the same 323278 @ .323 dia jumping about 1/8" under 2” at 100. Who knows?
George
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HOWDY:D
Thanks for the advise. I have a few more questions reguarding sizing and lubing. Do any of you/all use a light coat of Liquid Alox along with lubing and sizing when you seat the GC?? Should the forward part of the bullet be left clean or is it beneficial to use a bit of liquid Alox? Thanks Again:)
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haven't used any liquid alox on the bullets. I usually use LBT Blue. Others use 50/50 with excellent results.
Some shooters are having issues with carbon fouling and leading. I haven't played with this but my initial thoughts were that shooting some bullets with the front coated with liquid alox might clear these problems up. Just my thoughts.
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I remember an old advice,on an old Fouling shot :
spend your money once in a custom mold,of correct diameters for your guns.
Correct diameters on the nose,the bands and the gas check shank.
It's like buying all the costly gadgets for case prepping to use scrounged surpluss brass.Go strait and buy Lapua or Norma.
I use garbage balkan brass and old GI brass for merry plinking and offhand practice.
You'll have less frustrations,and your mental health will benefit too.
When I want a new mold,I wait till I can afford it and I get 4 cav aluminium molds from LBT.
There is currently a group buy of LBT moulds.
And my not humble opinion is that 3/4 moa old miltary as issued rifles are as rare as intelligent gun control laws.
PS To the members that disagree with me,feel free to protest and use 4 letters words,but
You cannot shoot at me,I am across the pond,I live in Italy.Out of range.
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> You cannot shoot at me, I am across the pond,I live in Italy. Out of range.
:hunt:Giorgio, paisano, you only think you are out of range. :D
Good shooting! RT
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