My Battle With Lead...

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  • Last Post 11 July 2013
Spartan5 posted this 17 February 2010

   Hey all!

   I am fighting a battle that I am sure you have all fought forever:  That of leading in the barrell.

   I have been trying different things, hard cast, vs soft cast...tumble-lubed bullets vs pan-lubed bullets, liquid alox, vs. old NRA formula...but I just can't seem to get these things to fire clean....and it occured to me....

  I don't REALLY know what good barrel leading or bad barrell leading is supposed to look like.

  I can immediately see the leading at the end of the barrell on the first shot---11 or 12 shots later it's marginally worse.  But because I don't really know what it's supposed to look like I need to ask you hardcore cast shooters out there...

  How many shots can you/do you fire from a common auto pistol...say a Springfield or a 45 acp...before you need to break it down and run a brush through it?

   I ask this because I was getting ready to make up a mess of my better (if still not great) cast bullets and load em up and see if I could get through 200 of 'em before I had to clean the bore.

   I still need to work on my bullets...I bought a 500 lot of cast bullets from my local gun shop and those shot well...and leave much less leading than my own....

  If I could get my own bullets working at least that well, I would be proud of 'em.  I would call em usable.

  A buddy of mine is taking a tactical pistol class and he needs 1000 rounds of 9mm...he wants me to make them for him, but unless I can get these things shooting clean that's not gonna happen.

   I was wondering if anyone had any experience with more/less leading on bullets that had been through a lubrisizer as opposed to shot as-cast?  Do I need to get a lubrisizer  to reduce leading, or does that help at all?

   Also, my current molds I have been experimenting with were Lee molds...one is the 124 grain tumble-lube round nose, and the other is the 125 grain one-lube-groove round nose... (two-cavity)

  Initially I thought my leading was because I was running out of lube, so I went from tumble lube to pan-lube with the lube-grooved bullets...and while this helped it did not solve the problem.

  I was hoping that using a two-groove mold would help also, but two things bother me about that:  Firstly, my store-bought cast bullets are just one lube-groove and they do fine....and secondly, I can't seem to find a cheap, two-groove Lee aluminum mold,,,the only molds I see that produce bullets with two grooves are iron and cost about 60 bones from Midway.

  Do you all think that using a mold with double grooves to hold a bit more lube will help, or am I on the wrong track here?

  I did notice that my as-cast bullets were slightly larger in general than my store bought cast bullets...do OVERsized bullets cause more leading?  (I thought it was worse if they were too small than too large...gas-cutting and all that).

  I am loading with 4.2 grains of Unique and my alloy is straight wheel-weights with a bit of tin thrown in.  Gives me a BHN of appx 10-11  (or 14 to 15 if I water-drop em)

   My pan-lube is 1 part parrafin, 1 part vaseline, 2 TBSP STP oil treatment.

   Any suggestions or ideas much appreciated.

       Thanks!

          Dave

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Lefty posted this 17 February 2010

I use the same panlube as you do in several of my rifles without a problem. I have also used tumble lubing w/o a problem with Lee Alox. I have not used tumble lube bullets in my 45 ACP so can't comment on that but I have not had leading problem in the 45. Revolvers are a different story.

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canalupo posted this 17 February 2010

Spartan

Slug barrel and see what the diameter is. I load lee tumble lube 200 gr semiwad cutter cast bullets sized to .454 in my 45 acp, 5 gr unique. It seems to help with leading. I know my 1911 does not lead. But I only shoot 100 rounds or so in a session. I get tired of reloading the mags.  My beretta 9mm I shoot 125 gr cone nose tumble lubed sized to .357 same outcome, very little leading. Small bullets seem to lead more especially when your bullets are moving close to 1200 ft/sec.

Leading, to me, looks like gray dirt in barrel the more dirt the more lead. With my guns it seems to start at the breech will be clean for a short distance and then lead at end of barrel. I imagine evrybody has their own way of describing it but that is my story and I am sticking with it. 

Good Luck

Bob D

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Spartan5 posted this 17 February 2010

Thanks for the replies guys! I think I will try and take some pics of the leading and post them up here. I might be pole-vaulting over mouse poop here....maybe I can show you all and you can tell me if I am. :-)

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454PB posted this 17 February 2010

Personally, I don't worry about what the barrel looks like, I concentrate on what the target looks like. As long as the group size stays small, I don't worry about leading.

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Vacek posted this 19 February 2010

Hey Spartan,

Fellow Caster from Fort Collins here.  I am casting the Lee TL356-124-TC as well and shooting them in my Glock 17 with a Lone Wolf Barrel.  Using Alox.  I am doing a light load of 3.7 g of W231.  There was some leading but largely because I needed to recoat with Alox after sizing and in the first batch was in too big of a hurry.  Possibly we can touch base sometime.

 

Vacek

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corerf posted this 19 February 2010

Spartan5, what is the measured BHN of the store bullets??

What was the result of water dropping on the leading?? More or less, or no effect?

I looked up LEE Load data for 9mm and Unique with 125 gr lead bullet. I see 5.3 to 5.5 gr with 5.5 giving 32kpsi approx. Velocity ranges from 1106 to 1139, not a very wide spread for operating.

Could pressure still be too high for a 10-11 BHN bullet at 4.2 gr??

Maybe try dropping the tin add, go with WW straight and water drop frosty bullets into chilled water. That means max temp from mold to water surface. I have found that as my mold WONT release bullets on the drop (especially my Lee molds, sometimes stubborn as the mold is run at high temp), they cool to a point where the water drop is ineffective. Speed on a frosty bullet (way hot) to the water surface makes them go to 18 or so. That rates directly with pressures that you might be experiencing. I'm shooting from the hip with suggestions and am curious as to why the leading. Can you try a harder bullet (home cast)?? I expect the store bought bullets are a bit harder than what your casting and that may be the attribute causing less fouling with their POOR fitting bullet over your soft, fat bullet. Just thinking out loud.

I don't think a sizer will help although it makes it easier to lube bullets with an oversize die. But you can pan lube with any lube and almost any bullet. I have used exclusively LLA for my 357 mag. I shoot heavy hunt loads with Lee 158 gr TL SWC. IT LEADS!! But I have lived with it. Last year I purchased a LEE 158 SWC with std lube grooves. Pushed thru a Lyman 4500 with a 363 die to lube with White Label Carnuba Red 2700. Haven't shot them yet, maybe I'll get around to it. BUT>>>> I shoot a 357 MAX (same lube, die and machine) with scarry loads for hunting and range use. Ball busters. 200gr FP's. With White Label Lube 2700, 100 rounds thru the barrel, nothing but unburnt powder (very little) AND accurate!!. Same goes with a 445 supermag, smokin fat ball buster mind bending time warping 300 gr's, 40 at a time, no lead EVER. I feel like the TL bullet works with some guns and loads and alloys very well, but it may not be up to the task of heavier loads or other adverse situations. Also anything I have LLA'd I have leaded, maybe not badly, but leaded. With WLL 2700, I have yet to lead anything but an '06 with 37 gr or 4895 and 210 gr bullets, too fast a firing rate and too many rounds down the barrel in a session, at too high a pressure. All my fault. Not a big fan of LLA or TL bullets but thats my guns and me loading.... not saying much for me either.

Maybe the TL and /or LLA is letting you down. Have you got a stick of HV commercial lube you can try??

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JSH posted this 20 February 2010

I will start off saying that there are some here with a lot more knowledge than I.

I expect no less from a CB than a jacketed. Not saying that I get the same reults,but that is what I strive for. I have several rifles and pistols that fouling is zero to nill through a 1-250 round session. If I have ANY fouling I want to know why.

You don't mention what pistol it is you have a problem leading. A Ruger would not suprise me and there are ways to fix it.

Store bought boolits are meant to sell and ship, they leave a lot to be desired most of the time.

Some times one can get lucky and load some CB ammo up and it shoots well in everything it is tried in. Other times it will end up as you mention above.

In your case of your pistol. It sounds to me like a case of a nick in the crown or some fouling. May even be a a place a good intending soul burnished one of the lands down or plowed some metal off in to the grooves.

I know some folks that claim to just fire a jacketed bullet down the barrel of a lead fouled gun. That is fine I guess if that is how you want to do it. I tried it had the biggest mess ever from a case of leading. It pretty much just ironed the lead into the grooves. I also suspect under the right conditions that a heck of a pressure spike could happen.Make sure ALL of the guilding metal is gone.

 

Size does matter as mentioned above.

Your buddy needs 1k of said bullets. I would not load all of them till tried a proved in his gun. Pistols can be a lot more problematic than rifles, or a t least in my findings. They are like women and flowers, some link red, some like pink. Some like buds and some like them in full bloom.

jeff

 

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Spartan5 posted this 17 March 2010

Hey everyone!
Thanks for all the great responses...

I don't know where to start in reporting what I have found as it relates to everyone's advice, but let me see if I can sum up...

My gun is a Springfield XDM9 by the way.

My water-dropped bullets are running about 14-15 and they leave a good deal of lead behind...

My #10 non-water dropped do a bit better. Not so much lead.

Pan lubed didn't do so well on either hardness...pan-lubed combined with water-dropped--even worse.

So I got a Star and started sizing and lubing with 50/50 beeswax/alox...

Noticably BETTER. I even “Mel Gibsoned” 200 rounds through it without malfunction and, while there was leading, it all cleaned up easily...

So at this point, my home-made ones are comin out as good as the store-bought ones, but from what I am hearing on these forums the accepted standard is NO leading...as one would get with a jacketed bullet.

So I have some Carnuba Red and other stuff comin' in from the nice folks at White Label, and going to try that. Hoping that the upgraded lubes will make the difference.

I am pretty pleased at the moment, because I am getting a basic, shootable (for my plinking purposes anyway) cast bullet.

But man...I would really love it if I could get it ALL the way right. No leading and accurate...that would be great. Though I think I will not worry about accuracy until I get the lead out. (Har har....)

Will update more when I try these new lubes.

Oh....and ya...I won't be making my buddy any amount of cast bullets until we do some pilot batches and come up with something that we know works in his .45

Thanks again all! More news as I get it.

    Dave

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jhrosier posted this 17 March 2010

I shoot water-dropped conventionally grooved bullets cast of 4:4:92 and lubed with Carnauba Red. They are sized as LARGE as practical for each caliber, .430” for the .44s.

Most of my shooting is with Ruger single action revolvers. I simply don't get any leading, even with maximum loads.

I have not had good results with the Lee tumble lube bullets and LLA, except with light target loads.

Jack

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7mmxbolt posted this 20 April 2010

+1 on the Carnauba Red, it is the real deal! I have tried a bunch of different lubes and this stuff just plain works “BUT” if your bullet is not sized correctly, I don't care what you use you will get leading. If you keep those hot gases be

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CB posted this 27 April 2010

Try Jeff's VooDoo lube thats in the members benefits section, I make my own version and size with a Star, never have problems with leading.

When I Tumble Lube, I use Xlox, not Lee's Alox. I learned about that from another forum member. I use the Lee Sizers and adjust them to the size I need if they don't make that size. Slugging a barrel is very important when you cast and load your own.

Leading can come from many different sources, mostly from the lead, but it could be hardness, the alloy, the lube, your barrel. And many things about hardness are not really true. I like my hunting bullets a little softer than WWs, some of my high velocity bullets, I add a little arsenic to my Linotype to make them harder, so they can stand some high speeds, but then a good low ash, low residue lubes helps also.

One of the magazines out in the late 80's made a profound statement that leading stops at a certain point and doesn't get any worse. It is correct, except my accuracy is crappy when the barrel is leaded up. I have an old Spanish FR8 that I shoot lead in a lot, generally a low powered version the 308 Win cartridge. I was thinking this year to shoot a lot of lead thru it and watch the lead build up, as well as the change in accuracy. It is a well “loved” rifle, so I have nothing to lose.

Much of our craft is a matter of listening and learning. Some times it is teach what we have found out. Ed and Veral are really great resources.

Jerry

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 27 April 2010

miestro_jerry wrote: I add a little arsenic to my Linotype to make them harder, so they can stand some high speeds,  How do you safely add arsenic?  This might be one of those elements that the cure could be worse than the illness.  Is this already present in something you are adding to the melt or the direct element?  Duane Mellenbruch

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gary0529 posted this 05 May 2010

Duane, Allow me to add what limited experience I have. I stopped using Lees Liquid Alox for Xlox-I still cut it 50/50 with mineral spirits but I find it holds up better. That being said, I still only use it for plinking loads in the 9mm and 38 Special.

Now realize that there are hundreds if not thousands of good lube recipes but I have become a devotee of Lars' stick lubes. I mostly use either the BAC or 50:50 he sells and save the Carnuba Red for 2000+ fps rifle rounds. I have been fortunate in that my revolvers have not ever given me a leading problem and I have stuffed thousands of rounds through a myriad of 380's, 9's, 38/357's, 44's and 45's without difficulties. Just one humble man's experiences.

Gary

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 05 May 2010

gary0529 wrote: Duane, I stopped using Lees Liquid Alox for Xlox-I still cut it 50/50 with mineral spirits but I find it holds up better. That being said, I still only use it for plinking loads in the 9mm and 38 Special.

Now realize that there are hundreds if not thousands of good lube recipes but I have become a devotee of Lars' stick lubes. I mostly use either the BAC or 50:50 he sells and save the Carnuba Red for 2000+ fps rifle rounds.

Gary I was asking about how to safely add arsenic to a melt, but it appears that will not be addressed. 

I have a bottle of LLA that is getting so old and I have thinned it so many times, the bottle is probably going to crack and fall apart on the shelf.  I seldom use it, but like to have some handy.  I will probably try the white label equivilant. 

I do not favor tumble lube bullets.  Nor do I favor wad cutters.  Some have excellant performance with them, others do not.  New bullet casters often think that the mold they buy must be within acceptable tolerances and can not believe that their castings are of improper size.  I prefer to use the lube sizer so the bullet size is consistant, and I can use a soft bullet lube that seals the bore.  LLA requires a mechanical fit and sometimes that just does not happen with some barrel conditions.  My usual bullet lube is Lithi-Bee and I am playing with something for the higher velocities.  In keeping with those that are tinkerers, my home mix lube is Buffalo Blood.  Still in the testing, but that is the fun part of it. 

Ralph Schneider used to offer a collection of most bullet lube recipes.  I think it used to sell for $5.00 and had about every lube and variation of home made or old timers lubes that you could imagine. 

I have way too many projects going right now, but if I ever do get it right, I will probably write it up for the Fouling Shot.  Maybe if they don't have anything else to put in the magazine, they will use that for filler.  Have a good day all.  Duane

 

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JetMech posted this 05 May 2010

Duane, Magnum lead shot is 1-2% arsenic. 1% is all you need to increase hardness.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 05 May 2010

I understand adding magnum shot so that there is some antimony added to lead, and there is about 1 or 2% arsenic in magnum shot.  But.... I suspect that adding a fraction of a percent to a pot of casting alloy will have very little affect on the overall hardness.  Unless one is quenching or heat treating, I just doubt that a tenth of one percent will have a measureable difference. 

That was not part of the comments, and so I was wondering if the individual was trying to add elemental arsenic, not blended with some other metals.  That is pretty unsafe without special equipment.  Duane

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CB posted this 06 May 2010

I would rather use sulfur, I have done this a couple of times and it gives about the same effect as adding arsenic. Smells like hell and take a while to get it into the mix but it would allow you to quench or heat treat with about the same result.

I recall a thread here a while back discussing using sulfur in place of arsenic...

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Dale53 posted this 27 August 2010

I have been a competitive shooter for MANY years.

I have LOTS of experience with the .45 ACP in a variety of pistols (all 1911 platforms) and revolvers (I have two S&W 625's and a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible).

The only ones that have leaded, even a bit was the Ruger single action. When I reamed the cylinder throats to the correct dimension (.4525") that stopped the leading completely.

I am NOT a compulsive cleaner. I just wipe my pistols and revolvers off and put them away in between range sessions. They get cleaned every 300-500 rounds (when they get so grungy that they are unsightly. Then NEVER lead - NEVER.

Since I have had few leading problems over the years, I am NOT an expert on removing leading.

I believe that the principle critical elements are having bullets of the correct hardness and diameter along with a good bullet lube.

Just for an example, I size my .45 ACP bullets at .452” and use a variety of types (in the pistols, mostly the 200 gr SWC H&G #68 - a clone from a MiHec six cavity mould). I have also shot thousands of original H&G #130's which is a 195 gr stubby SWC. In the revolvers, I, again, mostly use the #68 and have used a lot of the #130,s but also use the Lyman Keith 454424 clone from a NOE five cavity mould that weighs 250 grs in my alloy.

My “standard” bullet alloy for the .45 ACP is WW's+2% tin air cooled. I have used NRA 50/50 Beeswax/Alox with perfect results. Some time ago, I replace the NRA lube with Carnauba Red from Lar's White Label simply because it has a higher melting point (useful when ammo is left in my van in hot weather). The Carnauba Red works every bit as good as the NRA lube regarding accuracy (Ransom Rest tested) and freedom from leading.

If I were to sum up the reason for my success with shooting cast bullets without leading, it would be:

1 - Bullet design - I MUCH prefer bullets with one standard lube groove

2 - I use a GOOD bullet lube -either NRA 50/50 or Lars White Label      lubes will work well. Barry Darr's lube (the vaseline/parafine) is      marginal in my experience. It works well for some and gives leading      for others.

3 - I size to .452” (this works with both my revolvers and 1911 platforms)

4 - My alloy, as stated above, consists of WW's + 2% tin air cooled

5 - You must have a good barrel. Both of my 1911's have National Match      barrels but my Kimber CDP Ultra II has the factory issued barrel and      gives NO leading. The two 625's and the Ruger Bisley Convertible      have issue barrels and give match accuracy with NO leading. I have        shot issue WW II 1911's with the same ingredients and they did NOT      lead, either.

6 - Bullet designs which I have personally run without problems are:      a. H&G #68 200 gr SWC      b. H&G #130 195 gr SWC      c. Saeco #68 200 gr SWC      d. Lee TC conventional lube groove 230 gr      e. Lyman 454424 from a NOE mould 250 gr SWC

7 - I don't believe powder or primers are critical. However, you DO need      to use powders of the proper burning rate for your particular uses. I      have had good results with the .45 ACP with Bullseye, 231, 5066,      and PB for light target loads. I have had excellent results with Unique      and 7625 for “full” loads for the .45 ACP. I have always used standard      Large Pistol primers with the .45 ACP (currently Winchester and      Federal.

     All of the above have been run in 1911's and 625's and Ruger with the      exception of the Lyman 454424 - that has been limited to the      revolvers.           Further, I have known dozens of similar competitive shooters that      have had the same results.

YMMV (but I doubt it:)) Dale53

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olesmokey posted this 11 July 2013

I use to shoot 44 caliber exclusively and didnt have leading problems,but for economic reasons bought and started shooting 38s and 357 mags seems everything I shoot through those revolvers leads.

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