Mike Venturino Article

Standard Member

corerf posted this 23 November 2009

Is this from Handloader magazine this month??

Yeah, I believe everything he said......... and Obama is going to personally save every one of us as well. Chemistry defies Mr. Venturinos guns, which is why I am so hopeful regarding the change coming from Obama. That article was not worth the $5 it cost to read. I should have left it in Walmart and paid not to read it. I bought it for the 220 Swift article, another lack luster illustration!

He says you can't get jacketed accuracy from a CB...... Okay, enough said. Heretic! There are alot of contradictions in the article.

Attached Files

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 23 November 2009

Mr. Venturino's expectations and mine are different. But then he is not a CBA member, nor does he shoot in our competitions, so what do you expect him to say? I don't have to sell advertising space every month. “Handloader” has certainlly fallen on hard times. Where is the next Ken Waters or Al Miller? Not their present writers.

Ric

Attached Files

Standard Member

KenK posted this 23 November 2009

I generally like Mike Venturino but i don't read that magazine and don't really plan on seeking out this issue.

Who is shooting groups with cast bullets that are better than the NBRSA records?.>

Attached Files

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 23 November 2009

If your standard of accuracy is only 3-4 minutes of angle in a rifle or hitting a steel silhouette with a revolver cleaning after jacketed and before cast doesn't matter.

I found that shooting well-lubricated cast bullet loads seems to remove old accumulated metal fouling in pitted milsurp barrels.

Clean afterwards with Kroil and JB and it does a great job.

My friend Dennis loads a half dozen milsurp hardball in the bottom of each stick magazine so that his Thompson SMG doesn't lead up so bad from his cast loads (H&G #232 and 4.4 grs. 452AA) when the barrel gets hot. When using his hoarde of WWII ECC43 corrosive ball the barrel gets scrubbed with sudsy patches using old cake-style Bon Ami window cleaner (mild feldspar abrasive in soap base) then is flushed with Ed's Red. Heat water with sterno in your canteen cup.

None of these offer benchrest accuracy, but it's cheaper than buying a Foul Out.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Standard Member

corerf posted this 23 November 2009

KenK.... I will concede to the NBRSA but how many shooters have actually invested $5K or MORE into a cast bullet shooter?? Seems as though the cast bullet shooters “typically..not always” are using factory guns, mil surps, single shot handguns and not rail guns or their close brothers and sisters that can be carried by a fit stout MAN to the bench but not in one hand not without a back brace and rolling platform to assist.

I meant to infer by my statement that I personally have NO firearm in my collection, that can't and doesn't shoot equal to j perf with CB's, 4kfps varmint shooters not included. I know that I am not alone.

There was some unspoken expectations that readers of my post response would “consider” the range and breadth of such a comment and not react as though insulted by the statement. KenK If your an NBRSA member or record holder, I am sorry for any insult or demeaning that was felt, it was not intended. I will end my apology of sorts with this: If one was to invest the same engineering time, energy, $$, technology and quality control.... that is used to form and design NBRSA grade jacketed bullets.......into CB manufacturing..... well I won't finish the statement. The NBRSA is shooting as well as they do in large part because of $$$$$$ stuffed to fix a problem, millions, yet billions of govt, private, corporate$$$$. I don't think Veral, Lyman, NEI, LEE, RCBS, etc have that kind of liberal funding to drive such efforts nor a base of constituents to support the effort.

Money, time, engineering, money, money, money, money, supporters, money, money, money, technology supported by money, money, American driven brains. Thats all it takes to make a 1000yd NBRSA record with a cast bullet. MONEY, TIME, Engineering, desire..... that I certainly don't have. It is the American way. Say it can't be done, then go do it at any cost. I did not ever say it was easy nor economical or even a suggested practice. Simply that it is heresy!

Ric, handloader has very little meaningful data any more but has plenty of advertisement. I am in agreement with your description of Handloader.

Attached Files

Standard Member

KenK posted this 23 November 2009

corerf wrote: KenK.... I will concede to the NBRSA but how many shooters have actually invested $5K or MORE into a cast bullet shooter??

Compare apples to apples. I see Stolle and BAT actions and Krieger and Lilja barrels on the equipment lists of the CBA matches. They are the same as what the NBRSA shooters have.

Cast bullets may someday shoot as well as jacketed but the fact remains they haven't yet.

I'm not insulted in the least, you are the one that seems to have his hackles up.

Attached Files

CBA Member

JetMech posted this 23 November 2009

<> corerf wrote: I should have left it in Walmart and paid not to read it. I did. After the last couple years or so, I've learned my lesson. <> Ed Harris wrote: I found that shooting well-lubricated cast bullet loads seems to remove old accumulated metal fouling in pitted milsurp barrels. That's interesting. I've been cleaning a 1944 HS 1903 barrel for a week now. Still getting junk out of it. Guess it's time to load up and start throwing lead down range.

Attached Files

CBA Member

raytear posted this 23 November 2009

I read “Duke” Venturino's article in Handloader. Generally I like his stuff. My own experience says that he is mistaken---at least about my rifles; therefore probably about others, too.

All the cast bullets I shoot/have shot like to have the barrel all to themselves without any jacket fouling insulating them from the lands and grooves.

For example, in a copper-free barrel, shooting a Lee 325-175 8mm bullet with gas check, sized .325 over 23.5 grains of SR4759 or 29 grains of RX-7, my 2 Yugo M-1924s shoot almost exactly the same as with jacketed 150 grain Hornadys or 198 grain pulled GI bullets over 40 some grains of H4350, and close to the same point of aim. (Heavier charges under jacketed bullets shoot no tighter but sure do sting my face!) That translates to about 2.5 inches at 100 yards, off of sand bags.

The front sights are Brownell's replacements, filed to height and shape. The rear sight is an old Williams 5D aperture receiver model on one; the other is the GI rear sight with the notch filed square. My 60-something eyes just can't see any better than that. Friends who are good shooters and about my age have tried these rifles and get about the same results.

Being fairly new to shooting quantities of cast bullets in rifles--not sure how many hundred thousand I have shot in pistols--I do not have a wealth of experience. However, from what I have seen with my milsurps, and commercial arms, I believe that with the tailored loads, carefully cast & prepped bullets, and a properly set-up rifle, cast bullets could equal the jacketed benchrest marks on the books. In other words, I think the problem of making cast bullets shoot as accurately as jacketed is a matter of consistency and quality control.

Attached Files

CBA Member

billwnr posted this 23 November 2009

KenK wrote: corerf wrote: KenK.... I will concede to the NBRSA but how many shooters have actually invested $5K or MORE into a cast bullet shooter??

Compare apples to apples. I see Stolle and BAT actions and Krieger and Lilja barrels on the equipment lists of the CBA matches. They are the same as what the NBRSA shooters have.

Cast bullets may someday shoot as well as jacketed but the fact remains they haven't yet.

I'm not insulted in the least, you are the one that seems to have his hackles up.

I shoot a BAT with a Hart barrel in .30BR. CBA season ended in October so I screwed that barrel off and put on a jacketed bullet barrel to shoot the 4 winter months with the jacketed bullet BR group. Same gun, same scope, different barrel.

One thing I'd like to see is the jacketed bullet crowd cross over into CBA territory. I'd like to see them make cast bullets.

Attached Files

Standard Member

jimkim posted this 23 November 2009

Dew wrote: If you read the article about shooting cast and copper bullets in military rifles without cleaning between the two types, please post your thoughts. It seems that he has found little difference between the way they shoot. I know that seems to be against most everything I've ever read about having to have a barrel clean of copper before shooting cast.

I'm not an expert, but the key thing in your post seems to be ” It seems that he has found little difference between the way they shoot." To me that can be taken as they both shoot equally poor or as Ric pointed out he doesn't expect much out of milsurps. Like I said before, I'm not an expert. That's why I come here.

I'm glad Ed posted that. Now I know I can shoot copper out, just like I do lead fouling.

Attached Files

Standard Member

hunterspistol posted this 23 November 2009

:coffee Let's not forget here that Mike Venturino is a premier handgun shooter. Whatever else is said about milsurp rifles makes little difference as to his creditials. He's an expert on handguns, one of the first writers to explore them, and one heck of a nice guy.

If we all got blasted for everything we said and did, we'd not do a whole lot. But that's just my .02 cents worth anyhow.

Attached Files

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 23 November 2009

Hunter Pistol,

I didn't mean to blast Mr. Venturino. After all, he was writing about shooting cast bullets 30 years ago in the 222 Remington and 22/250. But he expects to have his last 25 years of work in black powder cartridge reloading carry over into what we are doing today in military rifles. He is still stuck where he was 25 years ago.

I enjoy his writing style, reminds me of the big buff guy at the range who always knows his opinion is right. He may be the nicest fellow in the world, but when you publish, you have to expect people to read and question what you write. And, he is doing it for a business so has to take a different tack on things.

Ric

Attached Files

Standard Member

jimkim posted this 23 November 2009

I didn't mean it as an insult. Just an observation.

Attached Files

Standard Member

corerf posted this 23 November 2009

Agreed Ric!

billwnr, Do you believe that a rifle or pistol can shoot as well with CB's as with match jacketed bullets?? You have invested much into your rifle and have direct experience. What do you think??

Who is shooting groups with cast bullets that are better than the NBRSA records?.>I guess no one Ken. It's too hard to do apparently. Why fight a battle that was won by Lapua and Berger long ago? If it's about winning, take the easy road, eh? path of least resistance and greatest achievement.

My original contention was with the statements made by Mr. Venturino regarding the accuracy potential of cast bullets. I DO absolutely believe that CB's can be as accurate and consistent as BTHP's. I will not backpedal one inch. If you have an equal number of shooters investing equal amounts of $$, time and attention to CB BR shooting as the NBRSA has in boattails, I will contend that the state of cast bullet shooting would escalate to equal performance in a relatively short period of time.

Maybe Mikes guns stink! He might need to revise his CB shooter collection. He may have a physical limit to his experiences based on his firearms.

My argument was one that stemmed from Mr. Venturinos broad, encompassing statement that there is a well drafted limit to CB performance. I don't believe that authors should draw lines in the sand as it dissuades others from viable pursuits (unless well founded!). Mr. Venturino, as Ric said, has a fairly low expectation from his cast bullets. He has imparted that to all his readers.

Similarly, Mr. Venturino lost my attention when absolute statements were made without scientific foundation. That is why we test with expectancies on this forum. Science has not disproven the theory of CB accuracy.

Why was I tweaked about the article, 'cause someone in authority (his perception) gave me an absolute (not a scientific fact or law of physics)!! Unfortunately I subscribe to the idea that God gave me a brain, the earth and all that is within it and that makes me believe that a human can shoot an all lead bullet with the same accuracy as one made by Lapua. Like space travel was, a few more folks have to sign on to it and make it happen. I must be a sucker 'cause when I joined the forum I truely believed that “GREAT” performance second to none, was possible with CB's. I shall die broken hearted now. The NBRSA, Lapua and Berger all have the lock on best performance. Dang it! I guess I'll switch back to fishing.

Additionally, it leaves me personally with no reason to continue to experiment, test, shoot cast bullets as they are second best to a machine made bullet and I like BEST performance. Cast is not the underdog, but Venturino leans that way. Maybe it's more difficult for him to make perform. It's not easy enough for him to load cast and hit the paper well.

If Mike is a nice guy, that's great. But nice, mean, whatever he acts and looks like, he told me what is.... isn't so. Ken, that's where my underware wadded up, not with you. You just pulled on the elastic a bit with the NBRSA comment.

Glad I could inspire folks to carry the thread.

Attached Files

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 23 November 2009

Some people like to race dragsters, some Mack trucks. Is one better than the other? I think not. I'm having way more fun shooting cast bullets than I did shooting jacketed. I like the added challenge and an excuse to play with the kind of guns I like. Us cast bullet shooters aren't the same as the jacketed BR guys. We're about self reliance and results, I think they're focused just on results, which is ok with me. I hope they're having fun. I know I am.

Attached Files

Standard Member

JSH posted this 24 November 2009

:coffee

I will throw in my .02.

The gun rags are sure not what the used to be, as we all well know. All of the articles have to be lawyer proofed. I read very few any more and subscribe to none. I will pick one up off the stand once in a great while if an article strikes my fancy.

Since all of our shooting supplies have doubled in price over the past couple of years I have seen CB supplies go into a larger demand. I have seen folks shooting cast more and more. A lot are even trying to cast their own, just for the savings.

"just for the savings” is what I hear and see a lot of. If they can shoot a CB from XX gun, it goes bang and makes the dirt fly and hits the intended target one out of six, they feel the have succeded. The myth that is out there will have a hard time of going away. As most folks don't have the want or need to make them shoot better than initial results. Because that is what the have been told by gpa or dad and then the gun rags reinforce this. So they don't have the drive to go any further. Let alone the understanding or equipment, time etc.

John Q. Public, wants instant satisfaction right now. I see this alot any more, and hear the excuse that it is good enough or I don't have time to make it better.

I was more a pistol guy the last 20 years than a rifle. I have switched and moved back more towards rifles, but have still kept most of my pistols. I get a lot of personal satisfaction from casting and tinkering with loads till I get the desired results. To top this off, I will say most all of my CB guns will out shoot 95% of the jacketed shooters of equal platforms at equal ranges.

I have come to expect no less from my CB loads than any of my jacketed loads accuracy wise.

Folks that post up here and at castboolits are more the exception than the rule. If not for these two places, I would have still been on the FLGC wagon. I have gleaned a lot more helpful info here than out of any current gun rag.

Funny thing on CB's I have heard time and time again. They are practice loads. Know I don't know about the rest of ya, but a prctice loaod needs to shoot as good as a match load. I mean I have seen folks at my club throw lead down range. I would see a target and try to help them figure out why their group was so large and try to get it to shrink. These ar just prctice loads and i use jacketed for a match????!!! Now what the H* kind of thinking is that? If ya have a poor shooting load for what ever reason, what are you learning? Trigger control, sight alignment, breating etc? Heck dry firing would teach ya that. But when groups, are patterns and their happy with it, is it a wonder the population can't shoot for nothing?

I suspect myself that their will be a large amount of casting equipment for sale that has been used very little in the next couple of years.

jeff

Attached Files

CBA Member

1Shirt posted this 24 November 2009

I don't get excited about much at my age, and that includes Mikes article. I am happy with milsurps that stay under 3” at 100 with cast or jacketed. I don't like much copper fouling, but am not a fanatic on 100% plus elimination of fouling. AND, I like Mike, and I like Ed Harris because they are not fanatics on the subject, but rather supporters of thier experiances and ideas. 1Shirt!

Attached Files

Standard Member

Papa Smurf posted this 24 November 2009

Good post 1Shirt. I'm 71,have not been excited in years,but I really enjoy cast bullets in military rifles. 3” at 100 yards is battle ready and is all I want anyway. I am not a benchrest shooter. Cast bullets take the bite out of shooting these old rifles. I totally agree with Mike,Ed,and you. Just want to enjoy what time I have left and not take a beating. Good Shooting----Papa Smurf

Attached Files

CBA Member

argie1891 posted this 25 November 2009

i quit reading gun magizines many years ago. got tired of reading articles on comparing the 38 special to the 9mm every couple of months. The only ones i get are the American Rifleman and Cast bullet Journal. When i do break down and buy one on the news stand i am mostly mad at myself for spending money on one big advertisement. Gun writers are like politicians they are experts because they get published not because they really know what they write about. Most are full of something that comes out of the south end of a north bound bull. joe gifford aka argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

Attached Files

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 25 November 2009

Dollar Bill wrote: Ed Harris wrote:

I found that shooting well-lubricated cast bullet loads seems to remove old accumulated metal fouling in pitted milsurp barrels. That's interesting. I've been cleaning a 1944 HS 1903 barrel for a week now. Still getting junk out of it. Guess it's time to load up and start throwing lead down range. Years ago Nick Croyle and I tested a gaggle of Finn M28 and M28/30 rifles in 7.62x54R. Frank Kurek donated a bunch of Hi-Vel No. 2 and we did alot of shooting with that powder testing sorted bullets from a new NEI 4-cavity mould I had designed, sorting the bullets by the type and location of visual defect, trying to quantify the effect upon accuracy. The results of those rifles and a Smith-Corona 03A3 we included for comparison were published in Handloader's Digest, but I don't recall which edition.

Some of the Finn rifles were like-new, with bright, perfect bores and rifling so sharp they actually cut patches. One of the M28/30s was a much-worn Sako with "dark but strong” bore received as a gift from a Sako collector who was disappointed in its condition, fearing bullets would either miss the target frame or hit sideways.

Frank Marshall inspected that rifle and proclaimed that if I had patience I could make it shoot lead. Under Franks instruction it did, so well in fact that I still own and use that rifle, but all the pretty ones are now gone. I recently picked up a worn Winchester 1894 .30-30 made in 1904 with similar bore and I plan on trying those tricks again for a future article, but here's what we did:

First we thoroughly cleaned the barrel using Ed's Red and 000 steel wool wrapped around a worn bore brush. We were generous with the bore cleaner, and scrubbed the whole bore up and back about ten strokes, replaced the steel wool, repeated. Did that above 4-5 times. Then we wiped out the bore and inspected, strong lands with light salt and pepper on top, but dark grooves which looked like they had been sand blasted.

So we took a new bore brush wet with a paste of Ed's Red and Bon Ami and scrubbed about 100 strokes, replacing the patch every ten or so until we got no more brown and black out, only gray and pink.

Then we repaired the damaged crown by running a floating-pilot .30-'06 chamber reamer carefully into the muzzle, cutting with only the throat portion of the reamer, stopping just as the case mouth shoulder cleaned up the surface of the original crown. We then went to the range.

Break-in loads were NEI #56 bullets cast of wheelweights, shot as-cast and unsized, crimping GCs on in a .314 die, loading 15 grs. of #2400, seating bullets out crimping in the rear cannelure. Prior to shooting each 5-shot group we ran one wet Ed's Red patch through the bore, followed by two dry patches. We repeated the wet-patch, dry-patch routine after each 5 shots. Lead would sometimes come out on the patch, but we didn't brush, just patch and shoot.

After 20 shots we then cleaned the bore with Ed's Red and cake Bon Ami paste on a tight patch on a Parker-Hale jag, then wiped out the bore and chamber with Ed's Red and 2 dry patches and repeated the whole drill again.

We didn't pay any real attention to grouping in the first 100 rounds, just firing them at an aiming point, but as firing progressed we noticed more center impacts in the group and fewer fliers. The bore began to lead less and was becoming easier to clean.

We fired 100 rounds this way the first day out. We repeated this exercise five times. By the end of 500 rounds of shooting and cleaning the ugly rifle with “dark but strong” bore was grouping as well as the pretty rifles and better than some.

My normal routine with this rifle now is to treat it like a .22 rimfire match rifle. I wet patch after shooting, and run a fresh wet patch through it every few months if I don't shoot it again, and push out any loosened crud before shooting by pushing through one wet patch and two dry ones before firing.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Mike Venturino Article

Categories

Search

Popular Tags

This Weeks High Earners

Hot Topics