.309 bullet's sized to .311

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  • Last Post 10 November 2009
Don Fischer posted this 10 November 2009

After reading a number of times that to get better accuracy in my 30-06 I should size to .311, I got a .311 sizing die. When it got here the truth hit me. I'm probably not going to take a bullet that drops from the mold less than .311 and size it up! DUH! Well I gave it a little though and decided to see if even though I couldn't as yet cast a .311 bullet, I might be able to crimp on a gas check and shoot the bullet as cast. So I gave it a try and the G.C.'s did crimp on. Another thing I found was that there was some sizing on the bullet's themselves. I strongly suspect at this point that the bullets are out of round but, by the time they have traveled th length of the barrel it won't matter as the barrel and pressure will swedge the bullet to some point. It has to. If you fire a .309 bullet down anything less than a .309 barrel, the bullet must be swedged by the barrel and pressure or extreame pressure could exist.

I've looked thru Midway and the only bullet I can find that is not .309 dia as cast is SAECO's 32-20 bullet that is .313. Somewhere I read that sizing down to much would actually close up the grease groves? But even if it did and I was to tumble lube, would it matter?

The only alternative I can see if I want to throw a .311 bullet is to do the cast bullet on a screw deal to open up the die. Might try that soon as I convince myself I willing to risk ruining a mold. But I also wonder what might be to gain. The barrel is an original Springfield barrel and the guy I got it from, or maybe military use, left the barrel pitted, from corrosive primer's I suspect. At any rate the barrel is pitted. It shoot's jacketed bullet's under an inch all day but accuracy with cast varies greatly from about 1 1/2” up th 4” or so at 100yds. Don't know that less than that is necessary as if I do hunt with this next year as planned, I'm gonna limit shot's to maybe 125yds at best.

The confussing part was reading that I'd be better off with bullet's sized to .311 and at the same time no word of how to get them there in the first place? It is lapping the mold with the bullet and the screw isn't it? One more thought. I read that on a double cavity mold you can't very well lap both bullet's to the same same so should only lap one. Well even if one is a bit off and both are sized back to .311, would it really make a difference?

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CB posted this 10 November 2009

Use the .311 sizer to lube and crimp on the check and see what happens before you start messing with your mould or throwing money away. More than likely it'll shoot fine. Don't pay any attention to those guys who say sizing will close up the grease grooves. I'd think you'd have to size down quite a bit before the grooves disappeared.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 10 November 2009

If you find that you absolutely have to have a larger diameter bullet, check the archives for “Beagling a mold” and follow those instructions.  It is a reversible temporary modification that holds the blocks a consistant distance apart.  It will increase the nose and the driving bands at the same time.  Duane

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canalupo posted this 10 November 2009

DF,

I have a similar problem with my TC contender. Slugged barrel to find it is .309 dia. I bought a Lee mold for a .303 brit 165 gr. It dropps from mold at .311. I shoot from mold without sizing and seems to work well in my situation. Lee molds are fairly cheap so it may be worth a try even if it fails.  good luck

Bob D

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Don Fischer posted this 10 November 2009

I'm not certain I need a .311 bullet, it has been recommended by other people as a means to better accuracy. Just got back from shooting some 180's with IMR 4895 and at 50 yds got very nice groups. 23 grs gave me just over 1/2” at 50yds. Looking to be able to drive this bullet about 1900-2000fps and hunt deer with it to maybe 125yds. Lee claims for this load, 1800fps and 18,800# pressure. Haven't cronographed it yet but when I find a load. First time I've ever used any 4895! Have a Red Dot load that's accurate but way short on fps, about 1200. Also a 4064 load that did well but again, short on velocity. Got the velocity up to where I wanted it with 4064 and it wouldn't group. Went a bit higher and just started getting leading. But the load cronographed out at 1999fps 10 shot average.

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hunterspistol posted this 10 November 2009

 Yes sir, it's confusing alright!

     While almost every mold in the world says it's for .309, most drop cast bullets that are larger.  Going a little oversize is okay but, not always necessary.  If you pour wheelweight, there's a certain amount of elasticity in the lead that you can count on.  The best idea is to not get stressed or tensed up until you get all the components together and, even then, you'll need quite a bit of patience.

PS: although it sounds simple, the best idea is to put the dial caliper on the 'as cast' bullet and measure to see what it drops at.

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JetMech posted this 10 November 2009

Don Fischer wrote: The barrel is an original Springfield barrel and the guy I got it from, or maybe military use, left the barrel pitted, from corrosive primer's I suspect. At any rate the barrel is pitted. It shoot's jacketed bullet's under an inch all day but accuracy with cast varies greatly from about 1 1/2” up th 4” or so at 100yds.Don, lots of folks shoot old Springfield barrels. They can shoot cast just fine. The first thing I would recommend is de-copper the barrel. Maybe fire-polish it, slug the bore and make a chamber cast, if possible. The Lyman 311299 is a good bullet in good Springfield barrels, but if you have an old barrel that's maybe a bit worn, has some throat erosion, the Lyman 314299, 311299's big brother, is what alot of guys use. It was designed for the 303 Brit, but shoots good in barrels like yours. Size it .311 - .312 and if they chamber OK, your in good shape. For better performance on game, you can do what I do on a different bullet: size it with a flat top punch. Gives a normally pointed bullet a flat meplat for better expansion. 311284 sized that way knocks 'em flat on their a__ at a MV of about 1800fps

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Don Fischer posted this 10 November 2009

I de-coppered the barrel befor I ever started shooting cast in it. Next is I have some bullet's that I ran thru thr .311 sizer that took the gas check but very little in the way of sizing, the bullet's don't appear to be round. These bullet's drop from the die .310 so they must be somewhat out of round. Thru the .309 die every band is obviously sized.

The theory I was hearing behind sizing to .311 is that then the bullet get's a better bite on the lands and is less likely to slip. Well if the bullet is already oversized for the barrel how could it fill out the lands better by being even more oversized? The pressure behind the oversize bullet requires the bullet to either be swedged or blow up the rifle! And I would guess that if the bullet is slipping on the lands and it is a bit oversized then it's not the size of the bullet causing the slip but I'd think it's a bullet metal that's to soft?

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RicinYakima posted this 10 November 2009

Don,

It is not that it is a better fit inside the bore, but it is a better fit in the throat. If it is alined better there, it will help it start stright in the bore. If it starts crooked, it will stay crooked. Lead bullets will not change relationship to the bore once the powder starts burning!

Ric

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cityboy posted this 10 November 2009

If you want a larger dia. bullet and not spend a lot of money, get a Lee 312-155-R or a 312-160-R. Have you considered making a cerosafe cast of the neck and throat of slugging it using pure lead to see what you actually have?

Jim

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JetMech posted this 10 November 2009

Don Fischer wrote: I Well if the bullet is already oversized for the barrel how could it fill out the lands better by being even more oversized? And I would guess that if the bullet is slipping on the lands and it is a bit oversized then it's not the size of the bullet causing the slip but I'd think it's a bullet metal that's to soft?

How do you know the bullet is over-size? Have you slugged the barrel?

If the bullet is stripping in the lands, could be the alloy is too soft for the velocity you are pushing it, seriously worn lands, or too fast a twist for the velocity, but a 1903 barrel should be 1:10. The only way to tell if it's stripping in the lands is to recover a fired bullet and inspect it.

If you are using a WW based alloy, you can drop them in water out of the mold and increase the hardness significantly. You are going to need a relatively hard alloy to push them around 2000 fps. I also think lube really comes into play as velocity gets in that range. I'm not sure LLA is up to it unless you have everything else in the load optimized. White Label BAC and Carnuba Red are some good lubes. Just my opinion. There are alot of variables in play here, and I'm not sure where you're at with regards to knowing your bore and chamber dimensions, bullet dimensions, etc. Hell, a bullet can appear to be out of round when sizing if, and it's not uncommon, the top punch is not correctly aligned with the die.

Powders: generally, I pick a powder in the middle of the range. You've tried the fast side (Red Dot) and the slow side (4895 & 4064). Maybe something in the range of 4227 or 4198 would work better.

I think the best advice I can give you is 1) Change one variable at a time 2) Keep good notes on everything and 3) Be patient.

BTW, take what I say with a grain of salt. I spent 20 years shooting 2 rifles ( a 30-30 and a chopped up 1903A3) and one pistol with all of 3 moulds. It took me some time ( a couple years) to develope loads that would do what I wanted. I've learned more from the guys here (Pat, Duane, Ric, Hunterspistol, and more) in the last year about cast bullets than in the previous 20. 

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corerf posted this 10 November 2009

Hey Don. Two things.

First, Ric is right, it's not the bore so much thats important but it's the one measurement that is reliable as a reference point for bullet fit and fundamental dimensions. It is the throat that is most important, which has angles and curves and goofy stuff that really cant be measured statically without a cast of chamber, then it's still relatively seat of the pants what your eye says fits but what the gun likes. Closer but maybe not perfect.

2:By using the 311 die to size, you get the lube on the bullet plus you “might” not size any part of the bullet as the bullet is not 311 or larger. So the effect is not to get a larger bullet per se, but to retain the full as-cast dimension, whatever that is, until you shoot the bullet. I am one of those guys that have repeatedly said, use a large die to lube and check, don't size to 309. This is due directly to the problem of throat size and a 309 not fitting tight enough (typically) or at all. But... 3095, 3099, 3104 may fit perfect..........and your mold may drop that large right from the start (you already advised on a 310 diameter dropped but oval a bit), bealgled or not. Now all thats necessary is to add lube and check, then try shooting. Do as little modification to the bullet dimensions as possible (for your testing). Most (going out on a limb) mold manufacturers spec and cut molds over spec, so a 309 is at least 309 +x but never minus anything.... or they need to get the mold back and fix it at the factory. I have a mold that Mr Lee cut and it WAS undersized. Postage is expensive, lapping was cheap, it was aluminum. I made it the size I wanted but, I digress. The Limb I went out on just BROKE.

If you push your bullet thru a lee 309 sizer and the entire bullet is sized visibly, then you have an as-cast bullet over 309 and thats very likely what any throat would want to start with. Again, just add lube, no sizing, just get lube in the grooves and a check stuck on and shoot it. Maybe fatter (than as -cast of your current mold) is necessary but 310's shoot very well more often than not. Thats where the .002 over groove begins to add up. Anyway, I have wasted alot of time with 309 diameter bullets 'cause thats what your supposed to do, right??. Then I read many times over, how as-cast is really what works well for others or bumped bullets or lapped bullet molds, fatter was the tool to get the desired result.

I questioned how to lube and check without changing bullet via sizing. Well get a big die!!. I said to myself, DUH, why couldn't I have come up with that?? Well I do as I am told, sometimesd not left to think freely as other do.

So I got a 311 and every 30 cal bullet I drop goes thru it for all cartridges, whether they get sized or not, out of round or not. Lubed, checked,no more than that and.... pretty accurate too. Same goes with 429 bullets, lubed in 431 die with check (I tried 429, I found I had a 44 cal shotgun). Same with 35 cal, all go thru a whopping 363 die to prevent ANY bullet from ever touching the die. I want lube and check for 35 cal, THATS ALL. This is how life is for me, your mileage will absolutely vary.

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Don Fischer posted this 10 November 2009

I ran a bunch thru the new .311 sizer and got them ready to load but haven't tried them yet. I was worried it was to big to crimp the gas check, didn't need to worry about that.

I did drive a lead ball into the barrel and got .3085. Guess I need to go in the other end.

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