4895 in 30-06

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  • Last Post 19 September 2017
loophole posted this 15 September 2017

 I started shooting cast bullets a few years after the NRA cast bullet handbook was published.  With loads over about 1800 fps it recommended nothing but "medium" powder--31-36 grns of 4895, for example.  It predicted  failure with shotgun powders and fast rifle powders at these velocities.

The Lyman Cast Bullet book listed high velocity loads with fast and medium powders including 4895, 4064,etc.

I just got a copy of the 50th aniversay edition of the Lyman book and it lists no loads with cast bullets in the 30-06 with any medium burning powder.  Nothing with faster than 4198.

Anybody have any idea why there are no longer any loads for the slower powders?  My early cast bullet experience with the 30-06 resulted in no accuracy with any of the fast powders I tried when loaded to 1800-2100 fps.  Anyone load cast with 4895, 4064, ect? 

 

 

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Brodie posted this 15 September 2017

I would start by using Hodgon's 60% rule with 4895 for whatever weight bullet you want to use.  

B.E.Brickey

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onondaga posted this 16 September 2017

loophole, you asked,

"Anybody have any idea why there are no longer any loads for the slower powders?"

4895 was engineered specifically for the 30-06, that is why it works so well in that cartridge. H380 is a substantially slower powder and some shooters love it in 30-06. I got decent results trying H380 in the accuracy department with heavy bullets but ran into the usual predicted problems of using a powder so slow. It got severe with 150 gr bullets and I had case necks not expanding and sealing on ignition and primers backing out from low pressure. Listening to somebody on this forum that likes H380 got me that mess. 

The most efficient powder for the job gets the best accuracy very dependably, really slow powders like H380 are horrible due to their very poor efficiency. Efficiency of a powder in internal ballistics is related to ~100% case fill of a powder yielding borderline MAXIMUM pressure and notably high velocity. H380 in 30-06 can't do anything like that in the 30-06, H4895 does while staying in the makers recommendation all the way down to 1/2 case full Hodgdon recommended youth loads PDF for 30-06 with no ignition problems: any cartridge/bullet weight where H4895 is recommended at all is safe to load down to 1/2 of available case room  with bullet seated. A flatter pressure curve than fast powders and no ignition problems in reduced loads is also what makes H4895 so excellent for cast bullets in 30-06.

180 gr. and up bullets in 30-06 do OK with slower powders. For 180 gr bullets and down 4895 rules in 30-06 due to it's efficiency in that application.

Gary

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RicinYakima posted this 16 September 2017

Acceptable accuracy with "slow powders" at 2000 f/s is 4 inches at 100 yards. You have to choose either accuracy or speed.

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45 2.1 posted this 16 September 2017

Acceptable accuracy with "slow powders" at 2000 f/s is 4 inches at 100 yards. You have to choose either accuracy or speed.

 

Don't get out your hammer and chisel for that flat of stone because it's not true.

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lotech posted this 16 September 2017

One can make blanket statements about anything but often such statements lack any basis in fact. My use of H4895 with cast bullets in the 2,000 fps range and bullet weights of 185-200 grains in the .30-06 has been very limited, but I don't recall any group as large as 4" or even close to that. 

One of the 4895s may be among the best powders for the 2,000 fps velocity range and would certainly be worth trying. My .30-06 loads nowadays are pretty much confined to velocities of around 1,600 - 1,700 fps using 200 grain ww  #314299 and 5744 or SR4759.

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RicinYakima posted this 16 September 2017

I read the match results, and I will stick with my position. If not shot in a public forum, I am from Missouri about "magic" 2000 f/s and MOA loads. Although there are people reporting 2 MOA groups from custom benchrest heavies upon occasion.

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John Alexander posted this 16 September 2017

I agree with Ric that most of us that shoot unaltered factory rifles in CBA competition (Production, Hunting Rifle, and Military class) find that something under 1,800 almost always shoots better than velocities over 1,800. I have never had any luck with high velocities but. 

There have been exceptions with Production class rifles.  Dan Willems often had 5-shot group aggregates of well under 1 inch with a 308 and won lots of matches with a load that chronographed at 2050. The late Mike Mohler shot a 243 to the CBA's 2007 Grand Championship including  a five shot agg of .423" with a 1,930 fps load. 

Most of our best custom built rifles (Heavy and Unrestricted classes) that win matches report velocities of slightly under or over 2,000 fps but this is far different from dealing with most factory chambers, throats, and bores.

John

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R. Dupraz posted this 16 September 2017

Well said John

 

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Starmetal posted this 16 September 2017

John, Let me give you an analogy.  Take a very windy road.  Which would be easier to drive that road perfecty in a car...going 30 miles per hour or going 100 mph?  Of course we know the answer.  Those fellows that win the matches at the lower velocities is because it's easier to do it then at high velocity. That's not to be said that you CAN'T do it at high velocity.  What the CBA might entertain is to have a strictly high velocity match.  You can't shoot or enter if you shoot under say 2400 fps. Then maybe you might start seeing them devoting their expertise and experience to doing that.  It can be done and has been done. One of the most ludicris statements I've ever heard (and it wasn't by you or even on the CBA forum) is that there is not stock military rifle (and we're talking of the older generation stuff like the Mausers, Springfields, Mannlichers, Mosin, etc.) that can shoot under an inch group using jacketed with the only modification being a scope.  I can't tell you how many old military rifles I've seen do that.  If one thinks that it can't be done, then with that mindset they will never be able to do it. 

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lotech posted this 16 September 2017

I thought the original poster was looking for loads that shot well in the higher velocity range. That's why I said H4895 might be among the best powders for this range and I stand by that statement. Granted, it's easier to get very good accuracy at lower velocities. That's why I like to stay in the 1,600 to 1,700 fps range using powders faster than a 4895. 

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Starmetal posted this 16 September 2017

In respect to the op's question the slower powders are easier to get high velocity with such as starting with 4350 on up through 4831 to  870. Some of the slower RL series from Alliant are good too such as RL-19 and RL-22.  Two bullets I like in the 30-06, as well as the 30-40 Krag, are the 311284 and the 311299/314299.  

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Larry Gibson posted this 17 September 2017

I thought the original poster was looking for loads that shot well in the higher velocity range. That's why I said H4895 might be among the best powders for this range and I stand by that statement. Granted, it's easier to get very good accuracy at lower velocities. That's why I like to stay in the 1,600 to 1,700 fps range using powders faster than a 4895. 

 

I concur........

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Westhoff posted this 17 September 2017

I shoot an issue 03-A3, Rem. 2 groove barrel, in CBA competition.  My 100 yard load is 27.0 gr H4895 behind a Lyman 311284, cast of linotype.  I size the bullet 0.311 and lube with Javelina.  Chronograph velocity at 15 feet = 1625 fps.  Looking back over my records for both match and practice scores since 2009, the load has pretty much stayed in the middle 90s.

Hope this helps.

Wes

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loophole posted this 18 September 2017

Thanks, fellas,

I recently bought two old rifles: a pre-war mod 70 with a custom heavy bbl(brand not marked on bbl, but all the gunsmithing on the rifle looks professionally done) and a custom target 03a3 in a heavy stock that also looks very well 'smithed.

I suffer from old eyes but I learned to shoot off the bench, and with good loads I worked up with jacketed hp's years ago I have shot these rifles into less than 3/4" five shot groups with 110 sierra hp's and 4064. I have Unertle scopes on the rifles which give me a great view of the target. My range is a leveled, measured 100yds, with a covered firing line and very stout benches.

 I cleaned both bbl's and tried cast.  200 gr Oregon Trail and a few others.  13 gr Red Dot and 16 gr 2400 usually shoot 1-1/2 to 2" with the OT.  Often I get 1" for four shots with a flyer I attribute to poor follow through.

This past weekend I tried Win 748, IMR 4198, IMR 4895, and IMR 4035 in 1800-2100fps loads.  I got some groups under 200 with 4198 and 4895 but nothing consistently tight.  I think I need some tinkering with 31-34 gr of 4895.

I would still like to know why the 50th ed Lyman book does not recommend any 2000 fps loads for 4895?         

 

 

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Starmetal posted this 18 September 2017

Hey loophole, why don't you try some 4350 any flavor for the heck of it and tell us what you get. 

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Ed Harris posted this 19 September 2017

I load cast bullets in the M1 Garand, shooting them in a standard grade CMP rebuild with Criterion barrel.  In a rifle with new springs which still operates a bit stiffly, a charge of 38-40 grains of either 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget function reliably with the HM2-312-160-5.  This is similar to the Lee C312-155-2R, the NOE .311-160FN or the Accurate 31-160H, all these being variations on my design for the 7.62x39.  Any of these will group equal to or slightly better than ordinary Ball M2 from the CMP, and give about 2100-2200 fps.  In rifles which have well worn-in actions and springs which have taken a set, you can drop charges to 34-36 grains for about 1950-2000 fps.

I cast bullets 50-50 wheelweights and linotype, size .311" with Lee 50-50 Alox-beeswax, and tumble all over with a light overcoat of LSStuff 45-45-10 or Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits.

These same loads shoot 4-5" ten-shot groups at 200 yards from my 03A3 Springfield, pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 and Winchester 54 with peep sights.  Maybe not CBA Match quality, but entirely adequate for the majority of shooting I do, including deer hunting.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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loophole posted this 19 September 2017

Starmetal--I can't get consistent charges from my Redding measure with 4350.  I'll try another measure.  I'm not going to use a load that I have to wiegh every charge.

Ed--I really appreciate all I've learned from your writings.  I'm going to try refining  the 4895 load and work on a slower Red Dot load.  I love the looks of your bullet.  I may  order the same design from Accurate.

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Starmetal posted this 19 September 2017

loophole, guess that's why I use a B&M powder measure!  You could weigh out just a few for a test. If it proves worthwhile then you can search for a measure that will drop 4350 consistantly. 

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