Re-barreling a Garand

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  • Last Post 29 May 2009
PETE posted this 29 April 2009

 Since it doesn't appear from the match results in the Military Postal Matches that not many are using a Garand, I'm thinking “Why Not?” I'm wondering what the rules are for re-barreling one for that competition?

  My Garand shoots well enuf with jacketed but is slightly pitted the whole length and doesn't shoot cast all that well. (i.e. - a bear to clean too) Am wondering what the rules are on re-barreling it with other than an surplus barrel? The original barrels I see advertised don't appear to be any better than what I have on the gun. I see Midway has barrels timed for Mil/Spec receivers and was wondering if this would be acceptable for shooting the Postals?

PETE

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CBALarry posted this 02 May 2009

Pete,   You can re-barrel with another military barrel, but an after market barrel is not allowed. (That would put you right over into Heavy Benchrest Class) I see that the Dakota Benchrest Club had about 6 M1 Grands entered in a spring match. Results should be in the Fouling Shot soon.                      Larry     

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PETE posted this 02 May 2009

 Larry,

  Thanks for the reply. Was just about ready to give you a PM about it. :)

  Ok. Will look around for a good military barrel. The three places I've looked at don't seem to have anything better than what I've got on the gun, so just might have to live with that.

PETE

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BruceV posted this 02 May 2009

Go to http://www.milsurps.comdisplay.php?f=76>http://www.milsurps.comdisplay.php?f=76 and you will find a cornucopia of articles on the M-1 rifle with detailed information on rebuilding, parts, quality of barrels as well as current sources of USGI military surplus barrels. From my own experience I would strongly suggest that you look for a USGI barrel produced for the 1960's rebuild era. Occasionally you will find a barrel marked VAR. These were made at Danish government arsenals for rebuilding M-1 rifles loaned to the Danish government by the U.S. I have two M-1 rifles that my brother and I obtained from the CMP. Both have as new VAR barrels. They are outstanding in quality and accuracy. Either of these two barrels should give you very good results in a properly fitted and correctly stocked rifle.

To find good barrels for sale go to http://www.milsurps.comdisplay.php?f=99 and check the ads.  I have bought a number of items off the CSP Shopper ranging from small parts, op rods and entire rifles.  I have not had a single individual who has not been entirely honest and fair.  If you are uncertain about a seller, ask a question on the M-1/M-1A Forum.  HTH.  Sincerely.  Bruce.

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PETE posted this 02 May 2009

 Bruce,

  Thank you VERY much. I must have looked at a dozen places and there didn't seem to be anything out there.

  Will check on your places in tomorrow afternoon and let you know what I find out.

  Thanks again!

PETE

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CB posted this 05 May 2009

Pete: I shot one of my M1s Monday, a  Spr. 1940 with a 1943 Spr. barrel, Barrel is very woren, Muzzel is .302 for a ways, The lead in the throat is so worn you cant get it to engrave on a .310- 311284 bullet..  18 grs. 4759, 100 yds, 4 groups, 1-5/8s- to 2 in. I figured this was a junker, This Is a nice one now to finish up thr story for the F.S.. Joe

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PETE posted this 05 May 2009

 Joe,

  I don't have any problems with the accuracy in my Garand. It's just getting the barrel clean afterwards takes quite a bit of time. A lot more than I think it should, and what it takes for the three AR's I've had. Can't get a clean patch no matter how long I work at it.

  So looking for a new barrel. Checked out the web sites Bruce suggested in his previous post. Looked over the For Sale area. Checked out a few possibilities which didn't work out. All in good shape but used, so might necessitate a new bolt to get things to headspace right. Also left a message on the Garand Forum section but no bites yet.

  How about selling me one of those new short chambered ones you've probably got squirreled away? :)

  Will look forward to your article in FS.

PETE

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CB posted this 06 May 2009

Pete: Dont have no new barrels for a garand, I did pick one up at the Fondulack gun show last week for $10.00, well used Win. barrel and swamped it out with the Spr. barrel that was on my Win. action, I got action wrench to take the barrels off and headspacing gauges,Nice to have a extra bolts if they dont headspace right, The Win. barrel and Win. action was the worst one I ever done. Had a Win. bolt also, You got some lee way with a field gauge if the std. no go goes, Not like a Hi wall, Screw it on and okey.

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PETE posted this 06 May 2009

 Joe,

  :) Didn't figure you'd have a new barrel, but thought I'd ask just in case. I'm beginning to believe that new military barrels are as scarce as hens teeth.

  You're right in that you need a mess of bolts so you can swap them around till you find one that gauges right. I do have access to al the necessary tools and gauges plus a finish reamer so putting another barrel on is no problem. Just need a bunch of bolts, which I'm really not in the mood to buy. My luck I'd need more bolts than what it cost me for the gun.

PETE

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codarnall posted this 16 May 2009

A buddy the with CMP program put me on to the worn mussel test from too much cleaning wear and tear.  The notion was if the standard ball spitzer went anywhere near the mouth of the case neck the bullet would really upset exiting.  Mine did.  I striped off the gas cylinder chucked up the barrel at the boss/port at the end of the barrel and cutoff .2 inches.  Crowned it with a ball bearing and crocus cloth and the group size really tightened up. Charlie

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PETE posted this 16 May 2009

 Charlie,

  My rifles an arsenal rebuild so meets TE & ME spec.'s. I'm afraid cutting back the barrel won't do much good on my rifle as it's lightly pitted the whole length and this makes it difficult if not impossible to get clean. Seems like no matter how many patches I run thru they still come out gray. Accuracy is good with cast bullets as far as I've had the time to fire it. But, I wonder if over time this “gray” will build up to the point it'll affect accuracy.   I'm kinda wondering if your barrel will meet the rules for military rifles. The rules state that the receiver and barrel must be original.

  Another question I have is since there doesn't seem to be any new, original, short chambered barrels out there....... even the CMP doesn't have any...... what is the legality of a CMP rebuild with a Mil. Spec. Criterion barrel they use for that?

PETE

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DonH posted this 17 May 2009

Pete;

I don't know the rules for the matches you are asking about but the Criterion barrel is, to my knowledge, legal for the CMP Garand matches at Camp Perry. No doubt this is due to the dearth of good arsenal barrels. I am in NE Indiana and have many friends/acquaintances who shoot High Power. Several of them regularly shoot the Garand Match. ( Yes, I am aware that is shot with ball ammo.)

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PETE posted this 17 May 2009

 Don,

   The matches I'm referring to are the CBA Military Postal Matches. Would also apply, I suppose, to any CBA Military Match.

  :) Yeah! I'm aware that the Criterion barrels the CMP uses, or that you can use, for re-builds are legal for the John Garand Match at Camp Perry. This is the point I'd like clarified. If it's legal for the National Camp Perry Matches why not for any CBA Military matches?

 I have asked a member of the board about this but haven't received an answer other than what I've read in the rules.

    MILITARY RIFLE CLASSES         Issue: Military service rifle of any nation. Rifle must be strictly as issued:        no  modifications.

       Modified: Military service rifle of any nation. Rifle must have original receiver       and issue barrel, while stock, trigger, and sight may be modified......... etc.

  Mention was made there is no way they could police whether a barrel met Mil. Spec., so if shooting in the Issue Class it had to be all original.

  The only alternative is as Smokey Joe mentioned would be to get an as new barrel stripped off a rifle.... there are plenty of them around...... and then purchase “X” number of bolts till you found one that would give you the proper headspace. Some stripped ones I've seen advertised are going for $85 apiece. With “as new” barrels going for around $150 to $200, one bolt and one original barrel would cost more than a new Criterion barrel from the CMP, or Midway. We won't get into how many bolts it might take. :)

PETE

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CB posted this 19 May 2009

 Pete ; The CMP has yet stripped barreled action for $100.00, ask for good shooting barrel, Put your parts on it or the barrel on yours, I got 8 of them this winter and are good shooting barrels. I will even give you $50.00 for the action. You could take the unit to the gun show with you and headspacing guages and find a bolt that would H.S. okey, Trade  bolt for bolt with Joe  from Rapids. Hope this helps- Joe

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PETE posted this 19 May 2009

 Joe,

  From what I've read on the CMP stores site the condition of the barreled actions they have for sale aren't all that great. Here's the quote from their site concerning the Garand stripped receivers.

"RM1SABRMB: M1 Garand Springfield Armory stripped barreled receiver. Receiver and/or barrel may have significant rust and pitting on interior and exterior surfaces. The barrel throat and muzzle readings will meet CMP rack grade critieria. These may or may not be able to be built into safe, shootable rifles. THESE ARE SOLD AS-IS. Barrel is NOT CORRECT date for receiver serial number. $100.

RM1SABRMG: M1 Garand Springfield Armory stripped barreled receiver. Receiver and/or barrel may have some minor rust and pitting on interior and exterior surfaces. The barrel throat and muzzle readings meet CMP service grade criteria. Barrel is NOT CORRECT date for receiver serial number. $275."

  I think what I already have is at least as good, if not better than either of these. My bolt has minimun headspace and the barrel has min. ME & TE per mil. spec. I already have a good shooting barrel...... for jacketed bullets, and that's all I could expect from the CMP....... a good barrel to shoot jacketed bullets.   Here's the CMP description of Rack Grade guns:

"RACK GRADE: (Fair)   Rack Grade Rifles. Most of these rifles have been refinished or rebuilt at least once while in military service and will likely have some parts from other manufacturers. Rifle wear will be exhibited by worn and mixed colors of the finish; there may be some minor pitting on the metal parts; wood will be basically sound but may be well used with minor hairline cracks, poor fit, and many dings, scratches and gouges; wood may not match in color, type of wood or condition. These rifles may have some foreign parts and wood may be Walnut, Birch, Beech or other variety. Rifles do not have import marks. Bores will be generally good with only minor imperfections; the barrel crown may be nicked, and the muzzle may gauge more than “3” on muzzle gauge. The Throat Erosion will gauge more than “5”The overall appearance and condition of the rack grade will generally be rougher than any other grade. Fair condition.  “ PETE

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CB posted this 20 May 2009

They tell you the worst, I have gotten 22 Total in rackers, field grades, Danish returns. Special in HRA, Woodless and stripped barreled action in the last 3 years,Yea - 3 were allmost smooth bores, the others were good shootables to exc. I have 3 extra barrels here but look like they would take a .312 lead bullet to make them shoot.They will if you fit a bullet to the bore. Joe

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giorgio de galleani posted this 20 May 2009

I had two garands,a worn one from springfield and a good one from winchester.

They cycled with cast bullets ,they were wonderful plinkers,but could not say they were accurate.

In my opinion their problems came from all those handguards and loose gas cilynders.rattling  forrard.of your left hand.

I had much better shooting with a couple of M14 a harrington&Richardson with a sleeved barrel and a  near mint Norinco. 

The forward parts are much better made in the M14,and  it's easier to keep them tight..If memory serves me,a Lyman 180 loverin bullet,and 35 gr.of Vihtavuori 135. kept inside 8 ring of the 300 meters UIT target.Prone W.sling.

All told the M1 Garand emanates a fascination effect I cannot describe,that ping of the clip jumping out of the action,well,the M14 is more modern , in an intelligent caliber ,but the Garand is the Garand, remember to take care of their Historical collector value.

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PETE posted this 20 May 2009

 Joe,

  I'll take your word for the ACTUAL quality of the barrels from the CMP, but never did like buying a pig in a poke. If I can't get my rifle to shoot well I'll just go back to my 03 Springfield. If I recall right I used it to win the Military Postals a coupla years ago. I just thought it'd be nice to see what the Garand could do.

  Georgio,

  I'll agree with you that the M14 is a much better shooter, accuracy-wise, than the Garand. I've shot one. The only problem is is that the M14 is not legal for CBA competition as none are available to the public in any form, other than to get one that's been converted to semi-auto, thru a State Assoc. Our State, at least when I was shooting High Power, had some available to first year shooters in High Power Comp. and I won the Regional Military High Power in my class with it the year I had it.

  The AR-15 is another real good shooter, but of course it's not legal for CBA competition either.

  I'm not interested in getting the Garand I have to fully cycle the action. I'm looking for accuracy, and as you pointed out, if you get a Garand to fully cycle the action you don't get good accuracy with cast bullets. Or, at least good enuf for competition.

PETE

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giorgio de galleani posted this 21 May 2009

I'm sure you'll enjoy a lot searching accuracy in a M1 Garand.

It is a piece of history ,I love  the ritual,manipulation of the  8 shot clips,paying attention at your thumb,even the recoil of the cycling bolt and other parts is  sweeter,different from the business like operation of the magazine fed M14.

It is like shooting a flint muzzle loader,you are transported back ,in the 1940s.

Of course rifles are semi auto only in Italy.

I hope that with a good barrel, you can get enough accuracy with  non cycling loads  ,please  keep us informed.If you have success I could  follow your tracks and begin to look for a good M1,though they are quite rare and expensive.

To day I'll load some rounds for my Remington  two groove 03A3, for a paper boar match at the end of june.

100 meters ,from offhand,standing.

I'll have to choose among a  REMmod17 enfield,and a sporterized SMLE N°4, a hard choice,quite like Paris on mount Idas,with three goddeses and the gold apple.

 

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PETE posted this 21 May 2009

 Georgio,

  I agree. The Garand is a nice piece of history altho as a collector item mine would be passed up as the barrel and receiver don't match as I suspect most of the parts. The stock has been refinished so the cartouches are missing with the square box, eagle and three stars in it's place. Really a nice looking gun and it shoots jacketed bullets very well.

  When I was just getting into High Power the National Guard teams from Illinois and Missouri were showing up with their M16's. The rest of us were shooting M1A's and Garands. Felt sorry for those gaurdsmen as they had to crank their sights all the way up and hold at the top of the target frame at 600 yds. to even hit the paper. Lots of dust flying on top of the berm in from of the target pit. :)

  I'm pretty sure that I'll find something that'll work well in the Garand, but the mould I use is no longer made (Lyman 311334) but they do show up on ebay. I've done well enuf with my Springfield '03, and that bullet that two friends have gotten them off ebay for their Springfields.

  So far best accuracy has been with 19.8 grs. of SR 4759 for a MV of 1671.5 fps - SD-0.6 fps & ES of 1.8. fps. That's not the average.... wish it was :)..... I just had to throw that in. Actual ave, of 5 - 10 shot groups is 1647.1 fps, SD - 6.3 fps & ES - 17.8 fps. Ave. group size was 1 9/16". If the Garand works up like the '03 Springfield I should be able to get down around an 1” with some 5 shot groups under.

  Here's wishing you luck with your paper boar shoot. Do you do this with moving targets? Are they full sized?  Always wanted to try that.

  Never having owned either the Rem. P17 or the Smelly I  can't offer any advice as to which to use, but either ought to do. I wouldn't have Paris' problem because as old as I am three goddesses would probably do me in. :)

PETE

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 25 May 2009

You are the culprit!

You made me do it!

 

With this dicussion on the mytical garand ,you have compelled me to gather some ,rifles gathering dust in my arsenal and bring them to Romano ,Novara City gunshop and make him search for a decent M1 Garand for me.

You know all that wood and steel  hardware rattling to and fro durig the cycle of the rifle,and the final PING of the airborne clip are like a Mozart simphony,for me.

My paper pigs are standing still.no hope to hit the running thing if not very,very near.

I placed llow in this running pig match. 

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