38-44 loads needed

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Last Post 27 October 2024

Standard Member

2frogs posted this 10 October 2024

Looking for loads with either 2400 and or 4227. Using the 358429 bullet, about 170 gr. As you know using 38 special brass. Thanks you any help on this. Johnny

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 10 October 2024

The classic load from the 1957 Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is 12 grains of Hercules 2400 for 1228 f/s from unknown revolver.

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Standard Member

2frogs posted this 10 October 2024

Thanks,I know but I have lots of4227 to use as well. There as got to be some information out there. Johnny

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 10 October 2024

12 grains of IMR4227 with Accurate 36-175H gives 986 fps, 18 Sd, 49 ES in Federal brass with Federal 200 primer in my 1955 4-in S&W Heavy Duty with B-C gap 0.005" pass / 0.006" hold.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Hi-Speed posted this 26 October 2024

10 grs 2400 with Lyman 358429 (Lyman 2 metal) CCI 500 primers was my favorite with this bullet. I only use in my Ruger 357 Magnums…approx 1,040 fps in 4 5/8 inch Ruger Blackhawk.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 26 October 2024

Larry Gibson did pressure testing of .38/44 loads which I believe were published in The Fouling Shot and may also be archived on this forum. Hopefully he will chime in here.

If memory serves 11 grains of Alliant #2400 with #358429 and 12 grains with #358156 seated out into rear crimp groove are correct.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Larry Gibson posted this 27 October 2024

Please note; I am not recommending or saying anyone should shoot any of these loads in any revolver/firearm other than a 357 Magnum chambered revolver/firearm. I certainly do not recommend them for use in any 38 SPL chambered revolver other than the S&W 38/44 “Outdoorsman”, the Colt New Service and the Ruger Security Six chambered in 38 SPL. Even then I would only recommend loads within 38 SPL +P pressures. The data presented here is for information only.

38 SPL +P+ or 38/44 Loads with 170 gr Cast Bullets & 2400

Often on the forum someone asks about loading 160 – 180 gr cast bullets over 2400 powder in the 38 SPL for use in S&W 38/40 N frames along with 357 chambered handgun/rifles. The questions usually center around start and max loads.

Rem-UMC produced a 38/44 cartridge for use in the S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman revolver, the precursor to the 357 magnum revolver. The velocity was listed with 150 and 158 gr j and lead bullets in the 1120 - almost 1200 fps (just going from memory there. Colt is said to have said the 38/44 loads were fine to use in the Colt New Service revolver.

Over the years I've seen the 358156 seated to second crimp groove over 12.0 gr 2400 as "the" load for use in the S&W 38/44 revolvers. That load was also oft recommended for use in M19s and other 357 magnum revolvers "back in the day" when 38 SPL cases were plentiful and easy to obtain and 357 magnum cases were hard to find and expensive.

The 358156/12 gr 2400 was and still is an excellent load in 357 Revolvers. Years back I shot a lot of that load in my Colt Trooper, S&W M28 and Ruger BHs. Back then, as a low paid LEO, I had lots of 38 SPL cases but little 357 Magnum cases. These days I have a sufficient quantity of 357 magnum brass to use.

I have a bit of pressure test data on the Lyman 358156 seated out to the 2^nd crimp groove loaded over 2400 in 38 SPL cases for use in 3844 or 357 handguns as that is what that bullet was designed for. The 358156 has become my favorite bullet of choice in the 357 Magnum for use with top end magnum loads. Also, if I was loading +P+ 38 SPLs for use in 357 magnums that is the bullet I would use.

Some seem to want to use the heavier bullets though so I’ve pressure tested two different bullets [36-168K & 36-175H supplied by Ed Harris (Outpost75)]. Many like the 358429 or similar bullets loaded to the crimp groove in 38 SPL cases because of fit in certain Magnum cylinders and feeds in some lever guns. Many also like the longer "Keith" design SWC for longer range shooting among other reasons. I am not averse to anyone using this bullet. The above test was done because many have asked me if I have pressure tested the 358429 or similar bullet in 38 SPL cases with 2400 powder. The above test results are in answer to those queries.

Unfortunately, I no longer had a 170 gr Lyman “Keith” 358429 mould when I started pressure testing. I never developed an affinity for that bullet in the 357 or 38 SPL so long ago when I traded off an OM Ruger BH I let the mould go with it. I regret letting the Ruger go but not the 358429 mould. With the receipt of the 36-168K (169 gr) & 36-175H (184 gr) bullets I loaded them in 10 shot test strings of 8 – 12 gr in 1 gr increments. I used W-W 38 SPL cases and WSP primers. Alliant 2400 was used. All charges were thrown using a Lyman 55 powder thrower. The bullets were crimped in the crimp groove with moderate crimp.

Testing was done last Monday, May 22, at the local range here. Temperature was 90 degrees with 7% humidity. Testing was done in the shade so the ambient temperature is also the temperature of the ammunition.

The test firearm was a Contender with a 7.94” barrel. The pressure and velocity data was obtained via a strain gauge attached over the chamber connected to the Oehler M43 PBL. The M43 corrects the screen velocity to muzzle velocity and I posted muzzle velocity. Chronographing the similar loads in a 6” barreled Ruger Security Six results in 150 – 200 fps less velocity out of the revolver.

Test results are the averages of the 10 shots with each test string;

36-168K (169 gr)

Load……Vel……..PSI

8.0……..923……20,100

9.0…….1065…..22,800

10.0…..1151…..24,600

11.0…..1291…..27,000

12.0…..1392…..28,900

36-175H (184 gr)

Load……Vel……..PSI

8.0……..948……22,500

9.0…….1094…..24,400

10.0.....1185…..25,500

11.0…..1298…...28,100

12.0…..1396……29,700

primers. Alliant 2400 was used. All charges were thrown using a Lyman 55 powder thrower. The bullets were crimped in the crimp groove with moderate crimp.

Test results are the averages of the 10 shots with each test string;

36-168K (169 gr)

Load……Vel……..PSI

8.0……..923……20,100

9.0…….1065…..22,800

10.0…..1151…..24,600

11.0…..1291…..27,000

12.0…..1392…..28,900

36-175H (184 gr)

Load……Vel……..PSI

8.0……..948……22,500

9.0…….1094…..24,400

10.0.....1185…..25,500

11.0…..1298…...28,100

12.0…..1396……29,700

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 27 October 2024

Thanks for the clarification Larry. I use my loads in the S&W N-frame Heavy Duty, Official Police, New Service and Ruger Six Series. Had forgotten that my slight charge reductions from commonly published data are STILL +P+!

The "sanity check" is greatly appreciated.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia