Does The Case Brand Matter?

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  • Last Post 10 December 2009
CB posted this 26 November 2006

I am sure this one will get some juices flowing..

Does the brand of case you use matter? Is one better than the other? How much does case weight consistancy influence where the bullets impact the target?

I personally think that as long as the cases are close in the volume of powder they can hold, then you should be alright for hunting or casual shooting with a good degree of accuracy.

However, when I shoot benchrest matches I favor Lapua Brass. For 2 years I used Remington brass until a friend gave me his Lapua brass with a gun I purchased from him. Being that I bought his rifle for a project, I used the brass in my production gun. (.308) I found the Lapua brass to be more consistant and quite a bit thicker than Remington. (note: the Lapua brass and Remington brass used were fashioned out of 30-06 brass because the neck portion of my production gun chamber measured out at 2.039 instead of the 2.015 SAMMI spec.) The additional case thickness helped with the reduced powder charge and also made the neck portion thicker so they could be turned to a consistant diameter to be used with Wilson Dies at the range.

I did turn the necks on the remington brass, however all I did was knock of the high spots and the neck thickness that resulted was only .014, the Lapua was .026 almost twice the thickness of the remington.

The remington brass developed a 'donut' just below the portion of the neck where the wilson die did not size. The lapua brass did not.

I have since passed the remington brass on to my wife who has starting shooting in our club matches with the gun that was going to be my project gun. She has been doing pretty well, but I would like her to do better. So right now I am working on making 300 brand new Lapua 30-06 cases into .308 so we will have enough for both guns.

For my money I think that for competitive shooting one should use the best materials available if you want to have the best accuracy.

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billwnr posted this 09 December 2006

I think case brand does matter, but have shot enough good scores with regular run of the mill brass to contradict what I think.

Right now my brass is Lapua and on another thread I alluded to weighing my brass and sequencing them by weight.    Strange thing is my best score was shot with brass that had a weight spread of about 5 grains from high to low, and they weren't sequenced at the time of shooting.

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CB posted this 09 December 2006

I use Lapua, because they are worth the extra money to me. You do not have to do a thing to them, because each and every case is a little gem. :) A perfect little gem!

Why waste effort after foolishness with Remington or Winchester or Federal or Norma with segregation by weight, then trimming, cutting and neck turning all the cases?

Just load the new Lapua cases and go shoot!

Wingnut

P.S. Wingnut Tip: Never, ever neck turn factory cases to be shot in factory chambers. Don't do it.

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CB posted this 09 December 2006

Why not I do, but not to the extent of a specific thickness. I just barely touch them to get them round so my Wilson dies will work when I neck size.

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billwnr posted this 09 December 2006

The Lapua's I sampled were close enough to not warrant neck turning.  They were only about .001 off.

The weight was pretty close too.  It was about a 2 grain spread for 200 cases.  About 185 of them covered a 1 grain spread, the rest covered the next 1 grain.

I know where Dan's coming from.

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CB posted this 20 December 2006

For some good run of the mill cases try out Winchester 300 Savage brass. I bought 100 to use in a 30x47 bench gun project I'll eventually get to and a sampling of 15 showed neck wall thickness consistency to not exceed .001, pretty darned good for regular old brass.

                                      Pat

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Ed Harris posted this 02 January 2007

When I shot active service rifle competition I loaded thousands of rounds of .30-'06 and 7.62mm ammunition for 200 and 300 yard rapid fire practice and also for infantry trophy. Mixed headstamp cases were used, as long as they were “GI” cases.   Ordinary Ball M2 or Ball M80 cases were OK, as long as you did not use any which had been fired the first time around in machineguns.  Firing in an MG sets the shoulders back due to over-ramming and increases headspace.

Fired brass was all full length resized, trimmed and deburred 100% no exceptions.  After sizing, trimming and deburring, cases were tumble cleaned in ground corncob, and primer pockets uniformed in a drill press using a White Tail Engineering tool with fixed depth stop, then visually inspected during priming.

Priming was done by using a hand primer seater which enabled you to “feel” loose pockets and reject those cases.  Powder charging and bullet seating was done on a Dillon RL550 using a Lyman M type step expander die, measuring charges of WW748 or 4895 powder and seating pulled GI M118/M72 match bullets left over from making “Mexican Match."  This is when you pull the GI bullet from arsenal ammo and replace it with a 168-gr. Sierra over the original powder charge, which we comonly used for team match ammo.

Over the years I probably assembled 100,000 rounds of reloaded practice ammo. For the most part these reloads would equal the grouping of statistically average lots of M118 Special Ball from an accurized service rifle, either M1 or M14.

When I started shooting cast bullets in bolt action military rifles for reduced National Match Course I followed essentially the same practice, substituting lubricated, cast bullets and appropriate charges of RL-7 or #2400 powder, dropped in blocks of 50 at a time  using a Culver measure, and doing final assembly on a single stage Huntington Compact press, since I didn't need mulitiple thousands of rounds.

The only concession to accuracy was check-weigh empty prepped brass to eliminate “heavy” or “light: ones, sorting into batches color coded using a felt tip marker acroiss the headstamp, by weight so that all was within +/- 1 grain within a batch.  Headstamp didn't matter. I checked neck wall thickness of loaded rounds 100% using ring gages after bullet seating.  Any “fat” necks larger than .340", but smaller than .346” were sorted for use in my M1917 Enfield, rather than my tighter Smith-Corona 03A3. Anything over .346” loaded cartridge neck diameter when using a .311” cast bullet was pulled down and the case necks turned to 0.011” wall thickness and kept as a separate batch.

As long as cases are full length sized and weight the same, their powder capacity is the same. Given the difference between the specific gravity of typical powders, about 0.85 grams/cc and the density of cartridge brass, it takes about a 12 grain difference in case weight to equal a 1 grain change in powder capacity. In cases the size of .308 Win. or .30-'06 a 2 grain extreme spread in case weight doesn't matter. But in small cases such as a .222 Rem. or hornet which would use a much smaller charge, then it does.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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vangunsmith posted this 21 January 2007

If nothing else,they all have different volumes,and one should load all his reloads with the same cases in a lot. vangunsmith

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Bob 11B50 posted this 05 October 2008

Something that has really bothered me is case length of new brass.  I was preparing to fire some 30-06 in a match and checked the length.  Recently purchased Remington and Winchester brass (unfired) ran in the neighbourhood of 2.70 2.82” inches long and all varied a lot. 

I had some old LC62 NM brass twice fired that measured 2.484", the book length.  I used the LC brass with good results.

Why are the ammo packers selling us the wierd lengths of brass for new?  Geuss I'll go to Lapua.  What are your thoughts on this?

Bob 11B50

 

 

  

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billwnr posted this 05 October 2008

It's easy to trim cases so all are the same length.   I haven't found a way yet to get them to weigh the same.:shock:

Here's what I said two years ago: “Right now my brass is Lapua and on another thread I alluded to weighing my brass and sequencing them by weight.    Strange thing is my best score was shot with brass that had a weight spread of about 5 grains from high to low, and they weren't sequenced at the time of shooting.

The brass that varied 5 grains in weight was Remington bulk brass.  Must have come from a couple different die setups.

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 October 2008

Lapua brass is best as it  needs no prepping,being already prepped.

Being more expensive,I use it for rifles and loads that can make use of its accuracy.

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hunterspistol posted this 12 October 2008

:armyhelmet:     Myself being new to some things, I only know what I've read about particular things.  According to sources for reloading in silhouette shootin', the difference in Remington and Winchester are there. Remington is supposed to be a thinner, therefore high volume case.  Winchester and Starline are close but, Starline is the thicker of those two. So, if a guy is comparing weight, or, in my case, loads to one tenth grains then, you'd more than likely want the same brand of brass. If not the same brand, the same lot even.

     That's just the basic stuff from down here.

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JetMech posted this 05 November 2008

withdrawn

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CB posted this 12 July 2009

Jeff

This is a interesting Thread with all good answers. I shoot CF BR with a 22 & PPC. I also shoot allot of cast bullet in several rifle and pistol cartridges.Like most I have shot many brands of brass. One that hasn't been discussed yet is making .222 out of .223. I have done this since I was a sprout. One reason was the availalibilty of GI brass and the extra energy I had to trim the xtra long neck once run through the .222 FL die. Back then I used a Forrester trimmer. If I make some more I will use the Lee trimmer and save my hand. It is my belief that hunting and casual range shooting does not need brass that a BR shooter might use. In BR work case preparation does wonders. But shooting is not 95% case prepartion as one Poster stated in another Thread. Having a competitive rifle and superior bench skills that day determines the winner.

 

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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duck hollow pete posted this 13 July 2009

How about neck tension,Two weeks ago I sat down with a mix of 06 brass( mil issue &com.)old new you name it it was in there. This brass was preped and primed 25 yrs ago for cast loads for my DCM M1 I got in 82 for high power practice, got sidetracked. Anyways I got me a M die with that long mandrel boy can you feel the difference in neck tension as to that small expander button got to make some type of a difference.P S ED my 311291's at 309 are a snug fit in fired brass from my 03a3 a shade looser from the M1 and a nogo from my eddystone( new rem. 125 grs managed recoil).

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canalupo posted this 14 July 2009

Please clarify something for me.

The controversy over case brand eludes me. I am mostly a hunter and shooter and accuracy out to 300 yards is academic. I know I could hit a deer at 300 yards.

However is it important, to a hunter type like me, to have a 1 inch group or a five inch group? It may be everything to a bench rest, target shooter.

It seems that if you are weighing your powder charge and all the charges are the same, the case volume is not a deciding factor, for my needs and accuracy. Your pressure may be slightly higher for smaller volume cases but how much does that truely affect groups for my use. I agree if I was shooting at butterflies at 300 yd, the group would matter, but a moose at 200 yds?

Clue me in.

Thanks Bob D

 

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KenK posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo wrote: Clue me in.

Thanks Bob D

  I think it is fair to say that most of us here don't see casting/reloading/shooting as a means to an end.  It's what we do.

Hunting is a completely seperate thing, to me.

 

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roadie posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo wrote: Please clarify something for me.

The controversy over case brand eludes me. I am mostly a hunter and shooter and accuracy out to 300 yards is academic. I know I could hit a deer at 300 yards.

However is it important, to a hunter type like me, to have a 1 inch group or a five inch group? It may be everything to a bench rest, target shooter.

It seems that if you are weighing your powder charge and all the charges are the same, the case volume is not a deciding factor, for my needs and accuracy. Your pressure may be slightly higher for smaller volume cases but how much does that truely affect groups for my use. I agree if I was shooting at butterflies at 300 yd, the group would matter, but a moose at 200 yds?

Clue me in.

Thanks Bob D

  I guess for me, it's a matter of consistency, I generally don't mix brass unless it's shown itself to be close to each other. I don't bench shoot, I just look for a good accurate load. In a hunting load, 5 inches at 100 yds. is not gonna cut it, I expect MOA at least or that load is crap. I've seen far too many “hunters” sight in their rifles at 100 yds., (after finding paper at 25), blast off 5 rounds, get a “group” somewhere's around 6 - 10 inches and call it ready to hunt. A few of them then proceed to gut shoot whatever unfortunate critter ends up in their scope. A lot of these fellows are somewhat intimidated by the cannons they have chosen to shoot.

Mixing brass, even in a hunting load situation, just adds more variables to open up groups. Apart from the obvious pressure dangers from using a max load, there is also the first round out of a cold barrel POI shift which has potential to be rather large. Granted many rifles don't exhibit that particular tendency, but many do. There is also the matter of case neck tension to consider. Couple that with an “accepted” load that groups 5 inches and the first cold barrel shot shifting impact 2 inches, and possibly a touch of “buck fever” thrown in and last day of the season and you have all the makings for a gut shot moose.

My hunting loads are same brass, same lot and accurate, I have no desire to trail up game after I shoot. I want them dead right there at whatever range I shoot. I tend to pick my shots and prefer that the animal not know I'm there. Small game reduced loads, I will mix, so long as the accuacy is there, plinking loads can be a whole mess of different brass, no problem there. Were I doing a lot of benchrest shooting, I would stay with one case lot, one brand, unless testing showed that there was'nt a great spread when mixing.

Serious loads have to be consistent, so if I miss, it's not the guns fault, it's mine.

my 2 cents, roadie

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canalupo posted this 14 July 2009

Ken K and roadie,

Maybe I need to rephrase the question. What is the group most expect with a round out to 300 yds? Does the brass matter in this case or are we talking about bench rest? What I am really trying to find out is how important is the brand of brass for accuracy in a hunting load?

At 100 yards most of my groups are around 1 inch, at  300 yards around four or five if the wind is being cooperative. I routinely mix brass. In forty years of hunting, I can count the wounded big game animals on one hand ( and 30 or 40 in the freezer). I usually hunt with jacketed bullets and save the cast for plinking and small game under 100 yards, in PA almost all shots are under 100yds. I also hunt with a handgun. This year I am going to try cast in my contender pistol.

Thanks Bob D

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KenK posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo wrote: Ken K and roadie,

Maybe I need to rephrase the question.  What I am really trying to find out is how important is the brand of brass for accuracy in a hunting load?

I don't think it is important in the least for the average big game hunter. 

Lapua brass sure is nice though.  I wish they made more.

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roadie posted this 14 July 2009

canalupo, In your case, because you know your rifle and you know the bullet impact will be within 2 inches of POA and well into the kill zone, case mixing has no importance at all. You know where it will impact. I just don't like to introduce new variables when I don't have to.

roadie

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