This started as the result of a thread on Cast Boolits. We need a lot of help here. This is the start.
joe b.
This started as the result of a thread on Cast Boolits. We need a lot of help here. This is the start.
joe b.
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Okay Joe, I'll bite.
Why? Is this some kind of contest? Or competition? There's too many particulars, such as using only Lyman molds. No mention of slugging the bore, or precisely what diameter to size to.
If this was intended as a guide for someone to begin to load and shoot cast lead boolits, it lacks a great deal of detail, then specifies other things.
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I have made several tries at this, none are satisfactory so far. Here's the question, posed different ways.
Start with the accuracy-enhancing actions
change lube, change primer, change sized diameter, change powder, vary powder charge by 1 or 1/2 or 1/10 grains, vary hardness, make the cases = chamber length - .005"??, weigh segregate bullets, or cases, or primers, or gas checks, anneal gas checks, trim cases to length, turn case necks, size necks in a Redding or Wilson replaceable bushing neck sizer, throat ream, re-crown, uniform primer pockets, de-burr flash holes, uniform ream flash holes ..........................
Question: Write them all down in order of importance.
Or, Question: Draw a scale left to right from 4” to zero, standing for group sizes. Then, identify which action/s should be taken to move group size below some number. Let's say you've got a rifle shooting 3” 5-shot 100 yard groups reliably. What action/s should you take, FIRST (in order of importance) or FIRST (in order of least cost.)
Probably nobody thinks that annealing gas checks is going to improve a 3” rifle a lot.
So, my present expedition, startrd on Cast Boolits, is to write the recipe for making 2” groups at 100 yards, and when a lot of agreement is found, ask what actions should come next. One option is to have a rail gun made at enormous cost, here the cost element comes in.
As a byproduct, or the original product, we might just end up with a chapter on how and what the beginner might do.
Does this make sense?
joe b.
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I remember an article of around fifteen years ago,on the FS,by a wise member who advised to buy a well made custom mold from a knowledgeable bullet makes,who is a shooter too..
But everyone wants to make do with cheap large production moulds.
If your accuracy expectations are low as in pratical shooting or cowboy matches,you may buy the cheapest,but for tighter grouping with rifles cheap moulds are money wasted.
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Examine the reasons why someone couldn't easily meet your criteria.
They can't shoot.
They have an inaccurate rifle.
They can't cast and/or have a poor mould.
They don't understand the fundamentals of reloading; what is important and what is minutae.
They can't read a reloading manual.
They are not willing to put any “work” into it and want to be spoon feed.
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Get at least 120 good cartridge cases from the same lot, at least with the same headstamp.
I don't find these two points usefull to get 2 MOA or less with any rifle in 30 .Just make sure the brass chambers and primers seat,then go shoot.it may be in the refinement stage it could matter,but not in the initial 2MOA stage is it necessary.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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OIC. You want a primer for beginning casters, a how to thread?
I've done what you said, a 2.0 inch group with a stock factory rifle with cast lead GC boolits. It was NOT a Lyman mold, it was made by lee. In fact I did it twice, once was a Ruger .280, the other a Savage .308. Lost interest, or another project came up, never tried to fine tune that load.
But then, I've been loading both cast and jacketed for over 40 years. I know a thing or two about how to adjust dies, and make good boolits.
Now if I can just do that with my H&R buff classic, 45/70, I'll be happy! A few groups under 2", but when I try to duplicate it, no soap! If it were easy, everybody would be doing it!
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It's your article but I think I'd change the “Must” to “Recommended” and the bullets to one of the midweight offerings.
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It's your article but I think I'd change the “Must” to “Recommended” and the bullets to one of the midweight offerings.
I'm going to take out the “must"s, which seem to bother people-baffles me why.
The 311299/314299 have worked for me over a lot of guns over a long time. The bore ride nose seems to align things. 311284 has base bands that go so far forward that tight bore/chamber guns end up with a lot of base under the neck. No/not much nose bullets like 31141 sometimes shoot well, 311291 shoot if the nose is big enough, but 299s work more of the time.
Now the 311 and 314 models give the shooter 4 bullets, 2 from each dc mold, one of which will fit about any 30 caliber rifle with .300/.308 barrel. This seems to me to be an advantage.
The 299s are big, have higher sd and thus bc, less affected by the wind, and are comfortable at lower mvs.
Last Wed. the 314299 in the Striker averaged 1.785” for five 5 shot 100 yard groups. The Wed. before was 1.96".
You MUST agree with the 299!!
joe b.
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I think it's easier to get a lighter bullet shooting and if the 299s nose it is too big it seats deep.
You MUST agree that for a guy that had a hissy fit over the 13 grains of Red Dot load you're being a bit goofy by saying someone Must use 4227 and Must use the 299? How do you know it wouldn't shoot just as good or better with the Red Dot load and a RCBS 180. Strange days are upon us.
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I think it's easier to get a lighter bullet shooting and if the 299s nose it is too big it seats deep.
You MUST agree that for a guy that had a hissy fit over the 13 grains of Red Dot load you're being a bit goofy by saying someone Must use 4227 and Must use the 299? How do you know it wouldn't shoot just as good or better with the Red Dot load and a RCBS 180. Strange days are upon us.
I think I didn't explain.
Yes 314299s that are too big seat too deap, sometimes. I've not had that happen with 311299s, but I only have 1 sc and 1 dc 311299 mold. maybe others are too big.
This article is intended to explain one way, ONE way, to get the beginner shooting. While the 13 grains of red dot is nonsense, the RCBS 180 would probably work, as would Unique and a 308403, or one of the 4895s, or lee bullets, or many other choices..
This is not THE way, it is ONE way. (Unlike 13 RD which is THE POOR WAY.)
After consensus on ONE way is time to start talking about other choices.
For me the 299 has worked for a long time, that's why I used it.
does that work?
joe b.
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Sure since it's nothing earth shattering. Just leave the 314299 and the Musts out and it works fine. By the way, I've never tried the 13 grs of RD load have you? There's a lot to be said about a one load fits all for a casual day of shooting, mines 10 or 11 grs of Unique.
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joe B
Seems I missed the point of your post.
As far as I am concerned there are two kinds of shooters. The shooter that would spend hours tweaking a round, counting every flake of powder and the guy that wants to make smoke punching holes in paper.
The process you propose is just that a process. It takes years to work up to your ideas in the post not to mention the cost.
What is wrong with a reloader starting out buying some commercial cast bullets, researching how to reload them and working up a custom load. He can then move on to casting his own buying his molds or become a master at this hobby. For most of us it's just that a hobby.
I read your post and reconsidered casting on my own.
I don't want you to take this as a condemnation of your ideas but ease up on the “must” have and the “recommended” haves an give the new shooter some advise to actually start pushing lead down the barrel. The shorter the list the better.
I am looking forward to the second post. I think there should be a beginner and an intermediate casting approach.
Thanks Bob D
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The point is Joe's become addicted to The book, not to be confused with The load he's always beating up on, and hasn't come to terms with it yet and sought counselling. He's gotten real good at noticing and pointing out mistypes though and that should lead to a fruitful career as a proof reader if and when THE book ever gets done.
Don't give up on casting because of Joe's article. Just do like everybody else does when they start out. Read the Lyman manual, pick a mould that looks good to you, and choose a powder you've heard people talk about. Like I've said a million times, this ain't rocket science.
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I agree with Pat. Don't give up on casting because Joe makes it sound like you need a degree in metallurgy to do it right. I started out in the mid 50's with a 10 lb. pot and ladle from Lyman which I'm still using. Melted my Lead on the kitchen stove, and my mould was one from Dixie Gun Works....... you know the one they claimed the blank was originally designed as a hair straightener, and you had to cut off the sprue with a pair of side cutters. I was happy! Shot good, an won a lot of matches.
Now I own I don't know how many moulds, have a 20 pd. electric pot, and I'm not any happier than I was then.
To keep this on track, I have several custom .30 cal. moulds but the one I reach for when I get serious is an old Lyman 311334 for my Springfield 03, and Win. Mod. 70. Contrary to other mentions my Lyman 311291 also shoots well when I'm going for the money.
PETE
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Seems to me another case of someone trying to re-invent the wheel. The Lyman manual is how I and probably thousands upon thousands of others have gotten started. After the initial start up process, I've refered back to the same manual as questions arose concerning interior ballistics, alloys, advanced techniques, and so on. Frank Marshal's articles in the same manual let me know the true possibilities of the cast bullet.
One of my issues with the proposed article is the assumption that new casters will have a .30 caliber rifle. Granted that it is probably the most popular rifle bore, but a looking thru the posts from the new casters clearly indicate that the majority of them are starting with pistol or rifle calibers other than .30. So all those statements that you “must” have this and you “must” have that will only discourage those folks and send them elsewhere for the information they need.
Maybe retitle it ” Cast Bullets for The Beginner Shooting 30-06 or 308 in Non-Military Bolt Rifles Only"
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Joe, you're making a sizable mountain out of a molehill.In Other Words, you're over-complicating making and loading lead boolits. It just isn't that difficult. I fear you have turned some people reading this thread AWAY from casting.
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Joe
I for one would like to thank you. Had I had this kind of advice 40 or 45 years ago I would not have had to thrash around in the dark and not have given up for 3 to 5 years where I swore I would never cast a rifle bullet again. I intend to keep a copy and when a youngster asks for advice I will hand him a copy.
Duane
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There are, no doubt, other paths to “reliably repeatable sets of five 5-shot groups averaging under 2” at 100 yards,” but Joe has omitted a bunch of variables with his recipes and technique.
Want to argue about lube? Have at it. Think you've got a better way to shoot for score? Fine by me.
He gets my thanks for recording his recommendations for rifles, brass, bullets, powder, and loading and shooting techniques that will get beginners on-target quickly. He's not talking to plinkers... he's talking to novice shooters who want to know what the results of their next trip to the line is likely to be.
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sluggo
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Eddie Southgate
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Urny
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