Cast Bullets For Beginners

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  • Last Post 12 April 2009
joeb33050 posted this 10 January 2009

This started as the result of a thread on Cast Boolits. We need a lot of help here. This is the start.

joe b.

CAST BULLETS FOR THE BEGINNER

 

This is a recipe intended to quickly get the beginning cast bullet shooter to a point of reasonable accuracy, that I define as reliably repeatable sets of five 5 shot groups averaging under 2� at 100 yards.

 

The “mustsâ€?

The shooter must be at least familiar with reloading, willing to learn how to cast bullets, and own or be prepared to buy the necessary equipment and to carefully cast, load, shoot and record the results. (Much used reloading and casting equipment is available at various shooting forums or auction sites.)

The gun must be a commercial non-military bolt-action 30-caliber rifle, such as a Savage, Remington, or Ruger.

The sight/s must be a telescopic sight of at least 6 power, preferably with an adjustment to eliminate parallax, or, as a more expensive and less desirable alternative, a set of good aperture iron sights.

The caliber must be 30/06 or 308 Win. with another 30 caliber cartridge as a distant third choice.

The bullets must be of good quality, gas checked, sized correctly, lubed with NRA Alox lube.

The powder and charge must be appropriate for the cartridge and bullet. Lower velocity loads from the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook should be used.

The bench rest equipment and technique must be adequate to allow precision shooting.

Meticulous records must be kept of all casting, loading and shooting information.

 

Explaining some “mustsâ€?

The gun

Commercial non-military because military rifles are more difficult to get shooting than today's commercial rifles, and have poor sights.

30 caliber, because we know more about shooting 30 caliber cast bullets than any other caliber.

Bolt action, because they are much easier to get shooting accurately than any lever, pump, auto loading or single shot rifle.

 The sights

Telescopic sights available today are very good at very low prices compared to scopes of the past.

Even precision micrometer adjustable iron sights are a disadvantage compared to an inexpensive = <$100 scope sight.

The caliber

We know a lot about shooting 30/06 and 308 Win, and the “mustâ€? rifles are available in those calibers. 

 

Casting, sizing, gas checking and lubing the bullets

Use a Lyman mold. They're available, of good quality, and tested over time. The 311299 or 314299 or 311041 are my favorites, and strongly recommend them.

Cast the bullets from wheel weights with maybe a little tin added. (I don't need or use the tin.)

Visually inspect the bullets, re-cycle the rejects. Weigh sort them if you wish.

The following 3 steps require a Lyman 45 or 450 or 4500 lubrisizer, or some other lubrisizer or Lee rig. I only know about Lyman.

Seat the gas checks in a separate operation.

Size the bullets to the correct diameter.

Lubricate the bullets with NRA Alox lube.

 

Reloading

Get at least 120 good cartridge cases from the same lot, at least with the same headstamp.

Full-length size them.

Measure the lengths and trim to the same length as necessary.

Chamfer the case mouths in and out.

Clean the primer pockets.

“Mâ€?-die the cases. This is absolutely mandatory, and means that a press is required.

Prime

Cartridge “lotâ€? size is 35, make a set of 35 cartridges for each trial load. 

Charge with powder.

Inspect the cases with a flashlight to detect “no powderâ€? and “double chargesâ€?.

Seat the bullet to the correct overall length.

 

Shooting

Shoot only on a day with reasonable weather. No hurricanes or blizzards.

Use a reasonable front and rear rest. Rests can be made of shot bags or blue jean legs, or bought for prices ranging from OK to crazy. I have used a Hoppe's front rest as well as home made rests, and they all work well.

Push a patch through the barrel.

Get comfortable at the bench.

Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don't let the barrel get too hot!

Clean the barrel.

Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don't let the barrel get too hot!

Clean the barrel.

Shoot 3 foulers, and then ONE 5-shot group for record in about 10 minutes. Don't let the barrel get too hot!

Clean the barrel.

Youhave shot five 5-shot groups and 9 foulers for 34 shots. What about the #35 cartridge? If you call a pulled shot, you'll need that #35 cartridge to make the fifth shot in the group.

 

Recording the data

Write everything down. Write the reloading data down when you reload, and the shooting data on the day you shoot. DON'T WAIT FOR TOMORROW, YOU'LL FORGET SOMETHING.

Write down the powder charge and primer make and lot numbers if you wish and the overall length and bullet # and just everything. If you pull a shot, honk it out of the group, and if you call it honked before you look through the scope, then take another shot for record. Don't lie to yourself.

 

 

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snuffy posted this 10 January 2009

Okay Joe, I'll bite.

Why? Is this some kind of contest? Or competition? There's too many particulars, such as using only Lyman molds. No mention of slugging the bore, or precisely what diameter to size to.

If this was intended  as a guide for someone to begin to load and shoot cast lead boolits, it lacks a great deal of detail, then specifies other things.

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joeb33050 posted this 12 January 2009

I have made several tries at this, none are satisfactory so far. Here's the question, posed different ways.

Start with the accuracy-enhancing actions

change lube, change primer, change sized diameter, change powder, vary powder charge by 1 or 1/2 or 1/10 grains, vary hardness, make the cases = chamber length - .005"??, weigh segregate bullets, or cases, or primers, or gas checks, anneal gas checks, trim cases to length, turn case necks, size necks in a Redding or Wilson replaceable bushing neck sizer, throat ream, re-crown, uniform primer pockets, de-burr flash holes, uniform ream flash holes ..........................

Question:  Write them all down in order of importance.

Or, Question: Draw a scale left to right from 4” to  zero, standing for group sizes. Then, identify which action/s should be taken to move group size below some number. Let's say you've got a rifle shooting 3” 5-shot 100 yard groups reliably. What action/s should you take, FIRST (in order of importance) or FIRST (in order of least cost.)

Probably nobody thinks that annealing gas checks is going to improve a 3” rifle a lot.

So, my present expedition, startrd on Cast Boolits, is to write the recipe for making 2” groups at 100 yards, and when a lot of agreement is found, ask what actions should come next. One  option is to have a rail gun made at enormous cost, here the cost element comes in.

As a byproduct, or the original product, we might just end up with a chapter on how and what the beginner might do.

Does this make sense?

joe b.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 12 January 2009

I remember an article of around fifteen years ago,on the FS,by a wise member who advised to buy a well made custom mold  from a knowledgeable bullet makes,who is a shooter too..

 

But everyone wants to make do with cheap large production moulds.

If your accuracy expectations are low as in pratical shooting or cowboy matches,you may buy the cheapest,but for tighter grouping with rifles cheap moulds are money wasted.

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KenK posted this 12 January 2009

Examine the reasons why someone couldn't easily meet your criteria.

  1. They can't shoot.

  2. They have an inaccurate rifle.

  3. They can't cast and/or have a poor mould.

  4. They don't understand the fundamentals of reloading; what is important and what is minutae.

  5. They can't read a reloading manual.

  6. They are not willing to put any “work” into it and want to be spoon feed.

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linoww posted this 12 January 2009

Reloading

Get at least 120 good cartridge cases from the same lot, at least with the same headstamp.

Measure the lengths and trim to the same length as necessary. Clean the primer pockets.

I don't find these two points usefull to get 2 MOA or less with any rifle in 30 .Just make sure the brass chambers and primers seat,then go shoot.it may be in the refinement stage it could matter,but not in the initial 2MOA stage is it necessary.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 12 January 2009

Size the bullets to the correct diameter.

Add -

Process in  a modern lubrasizer with new style non cutting sizing die.

I would also add-

Gaschecks can be firmly seated by hand initially before lubeing or with seater provided with sizer.

Optional ( may be better )-Use .309  Dia. Lee push through style sizer in loading press. Seat GC by hand before pushing through die (without lube so GC's seat firmly) Then lube with Liquid Alox after sizing.Also use Hornady crimp on checks only.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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snuffy posted this 13 January 2009

OIC. You want a primer for beginning casters, a how to thread?

I've done what you said, a 2.0 inch group with a stock factory rifle with cast lead GC boolits. It was NOT a Lyman mold, it was made by lee. In fact I did it twice, once was a Ruger .280, the other a Savage .308. Lost interest, or another project came up, never tried to fine tune that load.

But then, I've been loading both cast and jacketed for over 40 years. I know a thing or two about how to adjust dies, and make good boolits.

Now if I can just do that with my H&R buff classic, 45/70, I'll be happy! A few groups under 2", but when I try to duplicate it, no soap! If it were easy, everybody would be doing it!

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joeb33050 posted this 13 January 2009

Revised:

 

 

CAST BULLETS FOR THE BEGINNER

 

This is a recipe intended to quickly get the beginning cast bullet shooter to a point of reasonable accuracy, that I define as reliably repeatable sets of five 5 shot groups averaging under 2� at 100 yards.

It is not the ONLY recipe, it may not be the BEST recipe, but it is a recipe that will work.

It does NOT concentrate on cost.)

 

The “mustsâ€?

The shooter must be at least familiar with reloading, willing to learn how to cast bullets, and own or be prepared to buy the necessary equipment and to carefully cast, load, shoot and record the results. (Much used reloading and casting equipment is available at various shooting forums or auction sites.)

The gun must be a commercial non-military bolt-action 30-caliber rifle, such as a recent Savage, a Remington, or a Ruger.

The sight/s must be a telescopic sight of at least 6 power, preferably with an adjustment to eliminate parallax, or, as a more expensive and less desirable alternative, a set of good aperture iron sights.

The caliber must be 30/06 or 308 Win.

The bullets must be 311299 or 314299, of good quality, gas checked, sized correctly, lubed with a good commercial lubricant.

The powder must be IMR 4227. The charge must be appropriate for the cartridge and bullet. Lower velocity loads from the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook should be used.

The bench rest equipment and technique must be adequate to allow precision shooting.

Meticulous records must be kept of all casting, loading and shooting information.

 

Explaining some “mustsâ€?

The Gun

“Commercial non-military bolt-action 30-caliber rifleâ€? because

Today's commercial rifles are easier to get shooting than military rifles. (A custom military Mauser might also work.)

Most bolt-action rifles are easier to get shooting than lever, pump, auto loading or single shot rifle. Military rifles generally have poor sights.

We know more about shooting 30 caliber cast bullets than any other caliber.

 

The sights

Telescopic sights available today are very good at very low prices compared to scopes of the past.

Even precision micrometer adjustable iron sights are a disadvantage compared to an inexpensive = <$100 scope sight.

 

The caliber

We know a lot about shooting 30/06 and 308 Win, and the “mustâ€? rifles are available in those calibers. 

 

The bullets

The 311299 or 314299 work.

 

The powder

IMR 4227 works.

 

Some “How Toâ€? Notes:

 

The Bullets

Cast the bullets from wheel weights with maybe a little tin added.

Visually inspect the bullets, re-cycle the rejects. Weigh sort the bullets if you wish.

(The following steps require a Lyman 45 or 450 or 4500 lubrisizer, RCBS or Saeco lubrisizer or Lee Lube and Size kit.)

Seat the gas checks in a separate operation.

Size the bullets to the correct diameter.

Lubricate the bullets with a good commercial lube, such as NRA Alox lube. No homemade lubes!

 

Fitting the bullets to the gun

The 311299 and 314299 bullets are about 200 grains with bore riding noses. The 314299 bullets are a bit larger than 311299s, the noses are larger in diameter, and, until sized, the base bands are larger.

Both bullet molds today are 2 cavity. Mark the cavities so that you can tell which cavity the bullets came from. There is always a difference in bullet weight and some dimensions from one cavity to the other.

 

Cast bullets are not round, and dimensions of the as cast nose and base bands show this. I cannot ever recall a bullet with dimensions +/- a tenth, (.0001�), and normally 3 or 4 or more tenths difference is the rule.

 

Here's what you want for bullet fit.

1. The cartridge should go in the gun with a bit of resistance.

2. When you put the cartridge in the gun, and then take it out, the bullet must come out with the cartridge case. No de-bulleting!

3. The base of the bullet should be in the neck, not down inside the case. If just the gas check is below the neck, there's generally no problem.

4. The nose of the bullet should be engraved by each land of the rifling.

5. The forward-most end of the front base band should slightly mash into the origin of the rifling.

 

More tin and/or antimony in the alloy yield slightly larger bullets.

Sizing the bullet in a lubrisizer makes the nose larger.

Bigger as-cast to sized differences make the nose larger than smaller differences. Size a .314� to .308� and the nose will bump up more than when sizing from .314� to .312�.

Softer bullet noses bump up more than harder bullet noses.

 

Bullets with base bands sized to different dimensions will have different overall lengths.

 

Rifle barrel lands at the chamber end wear or erode, so that cartridge overall length increases as the rifle is shot.

 

If the cartridge that goes in the gun has a lot of base band below the neck, change something.

If the cartridge goes in the gun, has just the gas check in the case mouth and doesn't engrave the bullet nose, change something.

 

If both 314299 cavities make bullets too big, go to the 311299. If they're too small, either the gun or the mold is incorrect.

If both 311299 cavities make bullets that are too small, go to the 314299. If they're too big, either the gun or the mold is incorrect.

 

Reloading

Get at least 120 good cartridge cases from the same lot, at least with the same headstamp. 

Full-length size them. (New cases will shorten when fired. Used cases won't, much.)

Measure the lengths and trim to the same length. (Same length cases are required for proper case mouth “bellingâ€? with the “Mâ€? die.)

Chamfer the case mouths in and out.

Clean the primer pockets.

(Lee makes inexpensive tools to chamfer case mouths, trim cases to length and clean primer pockets.)

Bell the case mouths with a Lyman “Mâ€? die in a press.

Prime (Lee makes a great and inexpensive priming tool.)

Any large rifle primer will work fine.

Cartridge “lotâ€? size is 35, make a set of 35 cartridges for each trial load. 

Charge with powder.

 

Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook

308 Win., 311299 at 200 grains

IMR 4227

19.5 grains starting load to 26 grains maximum load

Start with 18 grains, and then go up in 1-grain steps to 22 grains

 

30/06 Springfield, 311299 at 200 grains

IMR 4227

21 grains starting load to 29 grains maximum load

Start with 19 grains, and then go up in 1-grain steps to 24 grains

ALWAYS CHECK A PUBLISHED LOAD TO SEE IF IT MAKES SENSE!!!!

 

Inspect the cases with a flashlight to detect “no powderâ€? and “double chargesâ€?.

Seat the bullet to the correct overall length.

 

Shooting

Shoot only on a day with reasonable weather. No hurricanes or blizzards.

Use a reasonable front and rear rest. Rests can be made of shot bags or blue jean legs, or bought for prices ranging from OK to crazy. I have used a Hoppe's front rest as well as home made rests, and they all work well.

Push a patch through the barrel.

Get comfortable at the bench.

Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don't let the barrel get too hot!

Clean the barrel.

Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don't let the barrel get too hot!

Clean the barrel.

Shoot 3 foulers, and then ONE 5-shot group for record in about 10 minutes. Don't let the barrel get too hot!

Clean the barrel.

Youhave shot five 5-shot groups and 9 foulers for 34 shots. What about the #35 cartridge? If you call a pulled shot, you'll need that #35 cartridge to make the fifth shot in the group.

 

Recording the data

Write everything down. Write the reloading data down when you reload, and the shooting data on the day you shoot. DON'T WAIT FOR TOMORROW, YOU'LL FORGET SOMETHING.

Write down the powder charge and primer make and lot numbers if you wish and the overall length and bullet # and just everything. If you pull a shot, honk it out of the group, and if you call it honked before you look through the scope, then take another shot for record. Don't lie to yourself.

 

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CB posted this 13 January 2009

It's your article but I think I'd change the “Must” to “Recommended” and the bullets to one of the midweight offerings.

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joeb33050 posted this 13 January 2009

pat i. wrote: It's your article but I think I'd change the “Must” to “Recommended” and the bullets to one of the midweight offerings. I'm going to take out the “must"s, which seem to bother people-baffles me why. The 311299/314299 have worked for me over a lot of guns over a long time. The bore ride nose seems to align things. 311284 has base bands that go so far forward that tight bore/chamber guns end up with a lot of base under the neck. No/not much nose bullets like 31141 sometimes shoot well, 311291 shoot if the nose is big enough, but 299s work more of the time.

Now the 311 and 314 models give the shooter 4 bullets, 2 from each dc mold, one of which will fit about any 30 caliber rifle with .300/.308 barrel. This seems to me to be an advantage.

The 299s are big, have higher sd and thus bc, less affected by the wind, and are comfortable at lower mvs.

Last Wed. the 314299 in the Striker averaged 1.785” for five 5 shot 100 yard groups. The Wed. before was 1.96".

You MUST agree with the 299!!

joe b.  

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CB posted this 13 January 2009

I think it's easier to get a lighter bullet shooting and if the 299s nose it is too big it seats deep.

You MUST agree that for a guy that had a hissy fit over the 13 grains of Red Dot load you're being a bit goofy by saying someone Must use 4227 and Must use the 299? How do you know it wouldn't shoot just as good or better with the Red Dot load and a RCBS 180. Strange days are upon us.

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joeb33050 posted this 13 January 2009

pat i. wrote: I think it's easier to get a lighter bullet shooting and if the 299s nose it is too big it seats deep.

You MUST agree that for a guy that had a hissy fit over the 13 grains of Red Dot load you're being a bit goofy by saying someone Must use 4227 and Must use the 299? How do you know it wouldn't shoot just as good or better with the Red Dot load and a RCBS 180. Strange days are upon us.

I think I didn't explain.

Yes 314299s that are too big seat too deap, sometimes. I've not had that happen with 311299s, but I only have 1 sc and 1 dc 311299 mold. maybe others are too big.

This article is intended to explain one way, ONE way, to get the beginner shooting. While the 13 grains of red dot is nonsense, the RCBS 180 would probably work, as would Unique and a 308403, or one of the 4895s, or lee bullets, or many other choices..

This is not THE way, it is ONE way. (Unlike 13 RD which is THE POOR WAY.)

After consensus on ONE way is time to start talking about other choices. 

For me the 299 has worked for a long time, that's why I used it.

does that work?

joe b.

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CB posted this 13 January 2009

Sure since it's nothing earth shattering. Just leave the 314299 and the Musts out and it works fine. By the way, I've never tried the 13 grs of RD load have you? There's a lot to be said about a one load fits all for a casual day of shooting, mines 10 or 11 grs of Unique.

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canalupo posted this 13 January 2009

joe B

Seems I missed the point of your post.

As far as I am concerned there are two kinds of shooters. The shooter that would spend hours tweaking a round, counting every flake of powder and the guy that wants to make smoke punching holes in paper.

The process you propose is just that a process. It takes years to work up to your ideas in the post not to mention the cost.

What is wrong with a reloader starting out buying some commercial cast bullets, researching how to reload them and working up a custom load. He can then move on to casting his own buying his molds or become a master at this hobby. For most of us it's just that a hobby.

I read your post and reconsidered casting on my own.

I don't want you to take this as a condemnation of your ideas but ease up on the “must” have and the “recommended” haves an give the new shooter some advise to actually start pushing lead down the barrel. The shorter the list the better.

I am looking forward to the second post. I think there should be a beginner and an intermediate casting approach.

Thanks Bob D

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CB posted this 13 January 2009

The point is Joe's become addicted to The book, not to be confused with The load he's always beating up on, and hasn't come to terms with it yet and sought counselling. He's gotten real good at noticing and pointing out mistypes though and that should lead to a fruitful career as a proof reader if and when THE book ever gets done.  

Don't give up on casting because of Joe's article. Just do like everybody else does when they start out. Read the Lyman manual, pick a mould that looks good to you, and choose a powder you've heard people talk about. Like I've said a million times, this ain't rocket science.

 

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PETE posted this 13 January 2009

I agree with Pat. Don't give up on casting because Joe makes it sound like you need a degree in metallurgy to do it right. I started out in the mid 50's with a 10 lb. pot and ladle from Lyman which I'm still using. Melted my Lead on the kitchen stove, and my mould was one from Dixie Gun Works....... you know the one they claimed the blank was originally designed as a hair straightener, and you had to cut off the sprue with a pair of side cutters. I was happy! Shot good, an won a lot of matches.

  Now I own I don't know how many moulds, have a 20 pd. electric pot, and I'm not any happier than I was then.

  To keep this on track, I have several custom .30 cal. moulds but the one I reach for when I get serious is an old Lyman 311334 for my Springfield 03, and Win. Mod. 70. Contrary to other mentions my Lyman 311291 also shoots well when I'm going for the money.

PETE

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JetMech posted this 14 January 2009

Seems to me another case of someone trying to re-invent the wheel. The Lyman manual is how I and probably thousands upon thousands of others have gotten started. After the initial start up process, I've refered back to the same manual as questions arose concerning interior ballistics, alloys, advanced techniques, and so on.  Frank Marshal's articles in the same manual let me know the true possibilities of the cast bullet.

One of my issues with the proposed article is the assumption that new casters will have a .30 caliber rifle. Granted that it is probably the most popular rifle bore, but a looking thru the posts from the new casters clearly indicate that the majority of them are starting with pistol or rifle calibers other than .30. So all those statements that you “must” have this and you “must” have that will only discourage those folks and send them elsewhere for the information they need.

Maybe retitle it ” Cast Bullets for The Beginner Shooting 30-06 or 308 in Non-Military Bolt Rifles Only"

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snuffy posted this 17 January 2009

Joe, you're making a sizable mountain out of a molehill.In Other Words, you're over-complicating  making and loading lead boolits. It just isn't that difficult. I fear you have turned some people reading this thread AWAY from  casting.

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Duane Trusty posted this 21 January 2009

Joe

I for one would like to thank you. Had I had this kind of advice 40 or 45 years ago I would not have had to thrash around in the dark and not have given up for 3 to 5 years where I swore I would never cast a rifle bullet again. I intend to keep a copy and when a youngster asks for advice I will hand him a copy.

Duane

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JimmyDee posted this 21 January 2009

There are, no doubt, other paths to “reliably repeatable sets of five 5-shot groups averaging under 2” at 100 yards,” but Joe has omitted a bunch of variables with his recipes and technique.

Want to argue about lube?  Have at it.  Think you've got a better way to shoot for score?  Fine by me.

He gets my thanks for recording his recommendations for rifles, brass, bullets, powder, and loading and shooting techniques that will get beginners on-target quickly.  He's not talking to plinkers... he's talking to novice shooters who want to know what the results of their next trip to the line is likely to be.

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