Some time ago, I ordered a SSK barrel for my TC Carbine chambered in .32 H&R Magnum. At the time, I was working with a “Cast Boolit” group buy Lee mould (six cavity) for a 120 gr Round Flat nose bullet (plain base). Off the bench this is a representative group at fifty yards. The TC Carbine does not handle well off the bench (have to seriously move it to work the action each shot) but it does show promise. I also have another group buy mould (Lee Six Cavity) for a 100 gr Keith bullet that works quite well in my revolvers. I will be trying that when my vision problems go away (hopefully). This was to be a edible small game rifle - light, easy to carry and inexpensive to feed. It looks like it'll do just fine with a little bit more load refining. Dale53
Thompson-Center Carbine in .32 H&R Magnum
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Fine group! Hope it works out well for you. Ric
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Looks like you have a load that will work! I've been kind of following your work with that T/C carbine for awhile. We both have one of the Keith style group buy molds and I've used it just a little in my Savage 23 in .32-20, a Hepburn in .32-30 and just a few plinking loads in .30-30. I've had the itch for a bunny gun and thought about a .32 carbine barrel for my Contender. Maybe it's just me but I have to work real hard at bench technique with Contender carbines. An early tapered factory Hornet barrel I once had would shoot WW factory stuff into .5 at 100 yds. if everything was perfect. A little extra grip or check pressure would reward you with a flyer real quick. That barrel really liked Win 680 but not 1680, 4227 or 296 and I never got decent results with cast. A Martini Cadet with a rimfire barrel in .218 Bee has never once shot into .5 but it handles cast and jacketed well and isn't quite so quick to remind me of my sins at the bench or in the field. It gets the use that the Hornet barrel did in the past and I like the .218 better than the Hornet cartridge anyway. I have a factory carbine barrel in 7TCU and Bullberry barrels in .30-30 and .218 Mashburn. The .30-30 is the only one so far that gets alot of use. Both my sons used it to take their first bucks when they were still small enough that we had to take the recoil pad off for it to fit them. I don't know how may thousand plinking loads have been through it. It's a reliable and consistant performer. I look forward to working with the 7TCU, not sure why I have the Mashburn Bee barrel other than it came with some other barrels I had gotten from a friend. Still, nothing has satisfied the bunny gun itch. The Savage 23 in .32-20 works fine with 3.0 Bullseye but I want to try the .32 S&W Long. This past spring I started rebuilding a #4 Rolling Block and fitted a barrel from one of the Drill Purpose P14 Enfields that were available some years back. I finally got a .32 H&R Mag. chambering reamer with a floating pilot but haven't had time to chamber the barrel yet. I hope to get that done next month now that my workload has relaxed a bit. Over the last several months my workload on the farm and at work has been nuts. Everytime I'd see one of you guys post something about bunny gun loads it would remind me that mine wasn't done yet. Thanks guys :D
Keep your plowshare and your sword. Know how and when to use them.
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Antietamgw; I also shot a few Hornady HBWC in .32 S&W Longs ahead of 1.8 grs of Bullseye. They wouldn't shoot AT ALL! I was quite surprised. I thought that they would work well (they shoot really well in my various .32 revolvers).
I also have a six cavity Lee mould for their .32 WC bullet (unfortunately, Lee has dropped this mould). It is possible that the solid base WC will work in the Carbine. It will have the advantage of Red Carnauba lube (White Label) - maybe the Hornady lube doesn't last until the end of the barrel?
So, as soon as I can see well enough, I'll start working with the 100 gr SWC and the 90 gr WC cast boolits (bullets(:>)). I have had really good luck on rabbits with revolvers and both SWC and WC's.
Dale53
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Dale53,
Been seriously thinking about getting a .32 H&R Mag. Encore barrel for the Encore frame.
You mention controlling the gun off the bench is tricky. Was wondering whether your barrel is for the Contender or the Encore frame and whether you have the 15” or 24” barrel? Might make a little difference with a little more wgt.
Also been thinking of getting the .32/20 barrel. My main reason would be to use it for 200 yd. Schuetzen shooting. One of the club members here has a .32/20 Low Wall and is doing decent work at that range. Am wondering what your thoughts would be as to using the .32 Mag. at that range?
My thinking is that if you could get a break open gun to work well off the bench it would make a poor man's .32MS. I know. I know! I'm probably dreaming! :)
Since they advertise both barrels with a 1-10” twist and .308 groove diam. do you have any thoughts on which bullet you'd use? I have the 120 gr. Lyman bullet for the M1 Carbine but don't think that would be a good choice.
PETE
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My thinking is that if you could get a break open gun to work well off the bench it would make a poor man's .32MS. I know. I know! I'm probably dreaming! :)
I think the 32mag would make a good poor man's 32MS if you use the right throat for your cb of use.
I think the T/C Contender or Encore is a poor choice to make a poor man's 32MS bench gun. I've messed with a Contender on and off for 20 years. They do not rest well physically as well as accurately enough to compete in the Schutzen game or for that matter any serious bench rest competition on a reliable basis.
Like Antietamgw says you have to really watch and work at how you load and how you hold to get the things to shoot br accuracy. My latest project was a 22lr barrel I relined with a match chamber to now hit .4” groups at 50yds. I can't keep it consistent enough to shoot a BR50 match with it.................Dan
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Pete; I don't believe that the .32 H&R case has enough case capacity for 200 yard shooting. Schuetzen is QUITE demanding, as you know. To be competitive, you really need a ½ minute rifle. I use a 200 gr bullet in my .32 Dell and believe the Dell or the rather similar .32 Miller Short have about the minimum capacity to do a REAL job at 200 yards.
I have a 22” custom barrel from SSK. It is a rather light profile (just what I wanted for woods rambling). Regarding shooting off the bench, it is too light and the forend design is for carrying, not shooting. Couple that with the fact that you have to move the gun off the bags between shots (applies to any break open) and it is just not going to be a competitive bench gun. However, that is NOT what I had it built for, I built this for a “bunny gun” and that's exactly what I got. I am happy and will be even happier if my vision continues to improve and I get to shoot it some more.:dude:
Dale53
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Dan,
You are probably right in that it might be a waste of time playing around with a TC Encore. A friend has a Contender pistol in .32/20, my other caliber choice, and it's pretty accurate at 100 yds. I'll have to ask him what he means by accurate, as accurate means in the 1” or less area for him. If it can be done with a pistol I look at it like why can't it be done with a rifle?
If I can't get either caliber to shoot well I will at least have had the fun of trying. For me this is the fun of shooting. Experimenting with and finding out what guns and calibers will do. I shoot a little competition just to prove what I've come up with works.
By the way. :) I do have a .32 MS in a CPA 44 1/2 action with a Krieger barrel so it's not like I REALLY need to duplicate the MS's accuracy.
PETE
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Dale53,
Well your reply knocks in the head the Mag. so guess if I try this idea out it'll be with the .32/20. That I know should be potent enuf as the pistol Shilouette guys say it will knock over the Rams at 200 meters. They say it's also accurate, but don't know what they mean by accurate.
I know what you want your rifle for but had thought maybe you'd tried some shooting at 100 yds., or had talked to someone who could talk about some work they had done at 100 or 200 yds.
You are certainly right in that taking a gun off the bags and putting it back on without screwing things up is a daunting task. But I do it all the time with my Springfield as it needs to have the powder oriented, so I know it can be done, altho the accuracy level won't match the 1/2” you need in Schuetzen. Actually around here there aren't to many guns that will meet that criteria either. Maybe all I'll end up with is a 200 yd. Bunny Gun! :)
PETE
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Pete; For some reason I have overlooked this thread. Sorry I didn't answer you (sometimes you have to “PM” me to get my attention...
If I wanted to shoot the .32 Mag at 200 yards, I would need a 200 gr bullet (at least that's what works with my Peregrine Actioned .32 Dell).
However, for a bunny gun, the 100 gr bullets will do just fine. My eye problems started right after my initial “Bunny Gun Trials” (Ed Harris' description of these kind of guns). I seem to be getting better so maybe by spring I'll be back in the saddle with a rifle (I can still shoot pistol cause I can use my OFF eye on bad days).
Dale53
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Dale,
I agree that if someone wants to shoot either the .32 H&R Mag. or .32/20 at 200 yds. they will need at least a 200 gr. bullet. That's the wgt. I use in my .32 MS, & .32/40.
With your comments on the case capacity of the .32 H&R Mag. being kinda iffy I'm leaning more to the .32/20 now. But, I'm kinda curious about one thing. I see the barrel has a .308 groove diam., with a 1-10 twist, and I'm wondering if a 200 gr. .30 bullet might not be a little bit better than a .32 cal. bullet of the same wgt. I would THINK the BC would be slightly better, plus a little less wind deflection. I would also think any improvement would be slight, and might not be worth the trouble. And like the .32 MS/Dell the case capacity for the .32/20 would be a little more optimumal than the larger traditional cases. What's your opinion...... or anyone else's for that matter?
Will be going to the Cedar Rapids Gun Show this weekend so will see what I can dig up. I see there's a 12 week waiting period for either caliber so the middle of the Winter would be a good time to order one. :)
PETE
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I corresponded with the Shuttleworths some time back about building a 32-20 rifle. I was thinking a .308 barrel and they recommended a .321. Said they were getting good results with one.
I don't know how much difference there would be in powder capacity in the Miller Short as compared to a blown out 32-20 but it couldn't be much. Also, it seems like you could shoot fixed ammo in the 32-20.
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Ken,
Possibly the Shuttleworths are right about a .321 barrel for the .32/20. But I'm kinda happy that TC uses .308 barrels as that gives me a huge selection of bullets to try out. Both my own inventory and what you can buy.
The Miller Short cases I have are 1.270” long and Ken Howells book (saves me digging them out of inventory :)) says the .32/20's are 1.315” long.
Your idea of using the .32/20 as fixed ammo was something I wasn't considering since I shoot mostly Schuetzen and breech seat my bullets. But, your idea is something to consider to. Loaded down with light bullets it ought to make a pretty good “Bunny Gun". :)
The main idea for trying this out is two fold. The big selection of various wgt. bullets in .30 cal. from commercial sources as vs the normal .312” or the .321” diam.'s available if you went with that groove diam. barrel. The latter in wgt.'s suitable for 200 yd. shooting would be mostly custom moulds. Plus the ready availability of cases for the .32/20. The MS cases all have to be made up.
If I can make this idea work then you will have a relatively cheap rifle considering that a CPA goes for $3000+.
PETE
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Pete; My SSK barrel in .32 H&R has the correct barrel dimensions for the cartridge (.312” groove diameter). The original TC barrels were in .308 and were kind of “iffy” when it came to shooting. Frankly, TC's chamber dimensions are all over the block. You never know what you are going to get.
I HAVE been lucky with a couple of pistol TC barrels (particularly my .30 Carbine barrel). It works wonderful for Hunter Pistol (the rams are at 100 yards). I used a .30 caliber Lyman or RCBS ( cannot remember for sure as my data is not at my desk) CAST bullet that weighed 170 grs or so ahead of a charge of RL-7 (nearly a case full). It shot really well. In fact, the only limitation was the 2 power scope. In other words, it shot as good as I could see (1.5” at 100 yards). It also shot so flat that I could hold on the back of the rams with the same sight setting as I used for the rest of the “animals) while holding center. That meant I didn't have to change sights for each range. I held right on the chicken, pigs, and turkeys and on the top of the back on the rams. My best score was 38x40 in a match. My average was probably in the range of 34-36x40.
Lovely combination for a fact.
Dale53
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Ken,
kinda happy that TC uses .308 barrels as that gives me a huge selection of bullets to try out. Both my own inventory and what you can buy.
PETE
I don't know Pete, I would agree if you are talking about gas check bullets but It seems to me that current production plain base bullet moulds are scarce in general. In particular for breech seating there seems to be a much wider selection of readily available tapered bullets for the .321 barrel.
There is a nice selection of light weight bullets for the .312 barrel. I have the Saeco #322 and a Lyman 31108 and both shoot very well in my Marlin 32-20 but it is definiteley a 100 yard rifle.
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Dale,
Hmmmm! It won't make any difference if the groove diam. is .312". Just that I think it would be better with the .308". I'm just going by what TC says on their web sight about groove diam. for the .32/20 & .32 H&R Mag. I seem to recall that SSK barrels were listed as .308 to. Trying to recall where I saw that about the SSK barrels. This could be “old” info so will have to slug the barrel if I get into this. I'd like to know the reasoning behind this idea, but suspect it just cuts down the cost for calibers that aren't all that much in demand.
One question tho. If you have a “proper” .312” barrel, does that mean the twist rate in your barrel is NOT the 1-10” I see advertized either?
Ken,
You're right in that most .30 cal., might even be all, moulds will have a gas check. What I'm looking at is to use it in production class CBA Postal matches. If it shoots up to the same level as my .32 MS.... which I doubt..... then it would be easy enuf to take a mould and have the GC machined off. I've done that a coupla times in order to get a PB bullet.
I've got a nice 110 gr. bullet.... I think that's the wgt....... for my .32/20 Win. 1892 rifle. So a “Bunny” bullet wouldn't be a problem. I'll certainly agree with you that light wgt. .32/20 bullets are for less than 100 yd. shooting. All the info I have for the lever gun above was shot at 50 yds. with the barrel sights. Was looking at that for CAS shooting, but ended up just going with the long range big bore matches that NCOWS was putting on at the time.
PETE
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Pete; I believe SSK can give you a range of twists. Give JD Jones a call, and he'll be happy to help you:
TC barrels come in .308 with a 10” twist. The problem with TC's, is that you never know what the chamber configuration is. Some of them have a VERY deep throat (not a pun) and the very next one will have a short throat. I don't know what is happening with them now that S&W owns them.
SSK understands the problems and will give you what you want wish.
There are others who make custom barrels for TC and they will all do better, in general, than TC. Other than this particular problem I have no problem with TC. Like I said, I have had really good TC barrels and they certainly are priced reasonably (if they have the calibers that you want). My TC .30 Carbine barrel (pistol length - 10") shoots better than I would have thought. It is in every way a GOOD barrel.
I do have to mention TC has been VERY good to me in the past. I bought a used TC receiver. I installed the TC .30 Carbine and the barrel would open every time I shot it. Scary! I called TC, told them I bought a used receiver and they told me to send it back. I did send it back. They replaced the receiver stating that it had been overloaded and was stretched. It had been bought from a silhouette shooter who apparently was from the “don't force it get a bigger hammer” school of reloading and had grossly overloaded the gun stretching the frame. TC didn't owe me a thing but they still replaced the frame AT NO COST. They knew full well that it was a used frame as I had repeatedly told them. That is good service!
It'll be interesting to see what happens now that S&W owns them. Smith has good service policies, also - so I expect positive things.
Dale53
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Dale,
Really surprised me that TC's quality control is as bad as you say it is. You're the first person I've heard say this. All the Pistol Shilouette shooters I know don't say anything about this. Is this something that's been going on for a long time, or just something that started when S&W took over?
Thanks for the info on SSK. I'll look up there web site and see what they have to offer.
Another question for you or those who might know...... Can you just buy a frame? I sure don't need to buy a whole rifle and then add another barrel on top of it.
Your experience with TC on replacing is good to know. If I should find a used frame it'll make the deal more palatable if I know TC will replace it....... That is if S&W will do the same. I'm not a great one for buying “used” guns as it's basically a “pig in a poke", unless you know the person, and you never know what your actually getting, as your TC frame experience shows.
PETE
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I corresponded with the Shuttleworths some time back about building a 32-20 rifle. I was thinking a .308 barrel and they recommended a .321. Said they were getting good results with one.
I don't know how much difference there would be in powder capacity in the Miller Short as compared to a blown out 32-20 but it couldn't be much. Also, it seems like you could shoot fixed ammo in the 32-20. The .32-20 case straightened out to entirely remove the bottleneck in order to accept a .321 bullet is called the 8x32R Helbig. The late Chris Helbig worked up this wildat in the 1960s as a way to inexpensively rechamber BSA Martini-Cadet rifles in .310 Greener to use common .32-20 brass with bullets which proper fit these tight 8mm barrels. The .310 Greener used a heeled bullet, whereas the 8x21R uses a conventional inside lubricated bullet. My Aussie cadet Martini which had been rechambered by Helbig. I got great accuracy using a bullets cast 1:25 in a cut-off .32-40 mould, removing the bottom band and one grease groove to produce a 142-grain plainbase. I used a nominal caseful, with about 14 grains compressed of RL-7. Heavier .32-40 bullets won't stabilize in the Cadet rifle's very slow twist. Jacketed 165-gr. bullets which are properly designed for the .32-40 work OK with a caseful of 4198, if you have them but the Hornady is too long and heavily jacketed to work well.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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The .32-20 case straightened out to entirely remove the bottleneck in order to accept a .321 bullet is called the 8x32R Helbig.
...
SO, who could do that now? I have a candidate just waiting!
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You could either use a .32-40 neck and throater, or a .30 M1 carbine reamer with 8mm throater to just clean up the front of the chamber until the breechblock closes on the blown-out case. Chris did them both ways.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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