The Continued 30-06 Plain Base Quest thread got me thinking about a Ideal 311207 mold I've had for a while, but haven't used yet.
It casts 0.310" dia. Top Band
0.309" dia. Middle Band
0.308" dia. Bottom Band
and weighs 165 gr., unsized or lubricated.
As the picture shows, it has huge lube grooves. I'm guessing the lube of the time was way different from what we are using today.
Any thoughts on how many lube grooves to fill? I'm thinking fill the bottom groove, and maybe work down from there.
Anyone used it in various .30 cal rounds?
311207 170 gr PB Lube
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- Last Post 31 July 2024
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That's a lube hauler for sure. I'm a little confused. When you say the the top band is .310 do you mean the band by the ogive or the one sitting on table? Does it really have a reverse taper? Only reason I ask is you said you'd start by lubing the bottom groove and work down. In my minds eye that would end up lubing the table if you were working down.
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The top band is is by the ogive
the bottom band is sitting on the table / near the base of the bullet.
when I said I was thinking of filling the bottom groove, and maybe working down, I meant trying to put less lube in the bottom groove (near the base of the bullet).
Whether it would be possible to apply a consistent amount of lube, without completely filling the lube groove is a good guess.
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The 311406 (originally 308206) was designed by Horace Kephart and first listed in the 1912 edition of the Ideal Manual #22. Made in 125 grains and 170 grains. Original alloy was 18% antimony and 4% tin. Made to resist leading before the invention of gas checks. FWIW
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Like nautical terms, the “driving band” is near the pointy end and the “base band” is at the flat part. The driving band is the first band to engage the rifling. On a ship, the bow is the first part of the ship to make landfall if the master is asleep.
That bullet can certainly carry some lube!!
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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Years ago while using a chrono, there was lube splatter on the read out. I asked ( don't recall what forum ) how much lube is really necessary. The best reply was rear grease groove only, that works out great for me. My plain base bullets get tumble lubed and generally unsized.
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Perhaps it carried a lot of lube for a black powder load.
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One way to find out: start shooting it and experimenting with lube protocols. Then report back!!
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That base band seems to be a bit to skinny... Adding a plain-base GC, or a layer of powder coat, would contribute with a little more girth.
Plain-base gas checks can either be purchased at Sage's, or made from pop cans with the right tool. They work.
I would only fill the bottom groove. Good luck!
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John Kort give me that mold the 308 version, he told me it was a gallery bullet for the Krag tried it in my 30-40 no3 Ruger, didn't work too good, used LLA
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in the pic looks like a pretty small diameter nose .. maybe check that out for first tweaks; usually best if the nose rubs the lands .
btw, for my plinker loads of 1300 fps, i lube all my castings by just picking them up with greasy fingers as i seat them ... not much lube, not too evenly spread.
when i started cast shooting, i figured more lube is better ... but more lube gave me weird flyers, especially the fouling shots.
funny things, these cast bullets.
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The bullet is backwards. The progression of increased drive band diameters should be largest at the base and smallest at the nose. If you have had the opportunity to read Dr. Franklin Manns intense work on cast bullet accuracy you will see that in it he points this out. His testing proved that a bullet having most of its length of bore diameter can shoot extremely well if only the base drive band is of groove diameter.
Having the taper in reverse allows the bullet to tip out of bore alignment on entering the barrel throat. If I had that mold my attempt for accuracy with it would be to size all drive bands to the same diameter as the smallest diameter of the base band.. In my view that would be the best chance for accuracy regardless of the nose diameter.
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Something I did to add versality to many 30 cal cast bullets is to have a nose sizing die made. The nose sizer fits the lube sizer press just like lube sizer dies but it has no lube holes in it. It is used to size the forward portion of a cast bullet from groove diameter to bore diameter.
This allows the adjustment of a bore ride nose length even in long bullets that are groove diameter for most of their length such as in the heavy for caliber Loverin designs.
With the nose sizer the bore ride nose length can be adjusted to be compatible with any neck length long or short as in the 300 Savage for short or the 30-40 Krag for a long neck. The bore ride section can be adjusted so that the groove diameter section of the bullet is always a perfect fit in any case neck length always seated exactly to the bottom of the case neck but never further.
As a for instance I have a custom 30 cal mold that drops a 230 grain bullet that is smooth lacking any lube grooves intended for powder coating and as cast is groove diameter for most of its length. I first coat the bullets as cast then by nose sizing adjust the bore ride length so that the portion of the bullet seated in the case never extends past the case neck into the powder cavity.
In practice with your bullet what I or you could do is to nose size the forward portion of your bullet to bore ride diameter, in my case my nose die sizes to .301" and leave the bottom one or two drive bands to .308" the as cast size of your bullets base band.
In that way the modified nose portion can be seated to a OCL that has the .301" modified nose section riding on the lands to maintain a good alignment with the bore center and in this way no tipping of the bullet can occur as the bullet is entering the bore on ignition of the powder.
For the cost of one sizer die nose sizing adds a tremendous amount of versality to all many cast bullet designs in that caliber. Now having a nose die in 30 caliber has me re-evaluating many of the old Loverin designs that I have previously rejected as having too much bearing length and so would have to be seated far to deeply especially in chambers with very short lead length.
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Bull
Where can one get a nose sizing die?
Thanks.
Jon
Jon Welda CW5 USA Ret.
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Since I am no longer a member the source I used from another site may or may not be available I do not know. I just did a search for custom bullet sizer dies and see that they are available from Buffalo Arms.
The difference between a bullet sizer die and a nose die is that there need be no lube holes in the nose die but I suppose there could be. One difference is that the ejector pin in the die that pushes the bullet out of the die on the up stroke of the lever that punch should not be flat but concaved to help alignment of the bullet in the die. I have a large assortment of top punches that I go through to find one that is a good fit to the bullet base to keep the bottom of the bullet aligned also. Its a system that has been working good for me making more designs more usable in more guns.
Another source I have used for sizer dies is S&S Firearms.
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In the pic looks like a pretty small diameter nose .. maybe check that
out for first tweaks; usually best if the nose rubs the lands.
You're correct. The nose measures 0.278". Definitely NOT a bore rider. Should be interesting.
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Something else to try to get the holes on target to cluster closer together is to try lubing only the bottom lube groove. Recently that point was driven home for me working with an old Stevens 32-40 and bullets from a Saeco mold. The Saeco design has five lube grooves and for my purpose of ligth accurate target loads I found that it does its best with only the two bottom lube grooves filled.
That old 30 cal design you have has typical black powder lube grooves generously proportioned to hold a large volume of lube but with smokeless powder and modern high efficiency lubes that volume of lube is not needed.
That may also be the reason the nose diameter seems small for 30 caliber to allow continued ease of loading in a BP fouled barrel.
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