.223 Case Sizing

  • 444 Views
  • Last Post 30 June 2024
Aaron posted this 23 June 2024

I had an interesting observation when loading cartridges for a Thompson Center .223 Remington barrel I acquired a few years ago. Mike Bellm has written about these barrels for decades and identifies several issues with production of them over the years at Thompson Center. Throating is one of the major burps that can arise and varied over the years with same caliber barrels. Off center chambers and ovoid throats were a major problem on some calibers and these issues too, varied over the life cycle of production years.

Knowing how to evaluate headspace in a T/C barrel is misunderstood by the vast majority of T/C users. Barrel to Frame gap is NOT headspace in these barrels. Mike Bellm has multiple videos on The internet showing this if you are interested. My concern when working up the loads for this barrel was the ever so slight projection of the cartridge from the end of the barrel. It was about half a thousand (.0005") and almost imperceptible. I noticed it when gently closing the barrel and it would not lock-up properly. Forcefully closing the barrel, accomplished barrel/frame lock-up but I knew something was amiss.

Above: Resized Federal Case with RCBS SB Size Die. There is an almost visually imperceptible protrusion. A metal ruler edge shows it clearly.

A factory cartridge inserted fully into the chamber with a noticeable depth to it and clearly deeper than my resized cases. Fired cases scrounged off a range floor would not seat fully due to expansion in another chamber. As said above, my cartridges sized with a RCBS Small Base sizing die almost fit correctly but missed the mark by an almost imperceptible degree. I have said many times before that half-a-thousandth or one thousandth of an inch in a firearm is like the grand canyon to a gun.

Above: Factory Ammunition Fully Seating

Above: Scrounged Brass Prior To Resizing

The obvious place to start was with the cartridge base. A precision micrometer revealed that the base of my RCBS sized case was smaller by a few thousandths that a factory new cartridge which seated correctly in the chamber. Of course my notes are in the workshop right now, not in my office where I am typing this. If memory serves me correctly, my cases were .003" smaller (narrower) than the factory case.

I then recalled an issue I had with resized 38-40 cases not chambering in some of the Uberti 1873 revolvers. To make a long story short, I had .020" turned off the bottom of the Lee sizing die to set the shoulder back allowing for chambering in my family of 38-40 firearms. The issue was not the die, it was the differing chambers not accepting the apparent SAAMI correct die specifications with regard to shoulder location. As some of you may know, a factory 38-40 cartridge has almost NO shoulder evident to make chambering in a wide variety of guns possible.

Remembering the shoulder setback issue mentioned above, I carefully inspected my resized cases. The bases were getting resized properly but I noticed the neck was resized about 2/3 of the way down. There was no contact with the shoulder. Could this be the issue? Since I had a few extra shell holders, I decided to take a few thousandths off the top of the shell holder allowing the case to enter the sizing die a little farther to get the neck/shoulder sized properly.

My first case ran into the die perfectly, and testing it in the chamber revealed I was on the right track. The case inserted fully into the chamber. My second case, when run into the sizing die, ripped the top off the shell holder where I had thinned it on the withdraw stroke. My suspicion was correct, they are thick there to withstand the enormous pressure of withdrawing the case from the die. Now I had a stuck case. Darn.

I have another set of .223 Remington dies and broke out the Lee Precision die set. I normally use this die set in the Dillon machine but haven't run off large batches of .223 for 3-Gun matches in probably 20 years. These cartridges were used in a semi-auto rifle to hit targets much closer than the T/C would be used for.

I adjusted the die base to touch the shell holder and sized a few cases. Bingo! They all fit into the T/C chamber as perfectly as new, factory fresh cartridges. Problem solved.  The Lee sizing die formed them with small bases, and fully formed the neck while kissing the shoulder, forming it back to SAAMI spec. There are many among us who love to Lee-ment about the lack of quality of Lee products. I am not one of them since my experience with Lee products has been positive. That's not to say everything Lee is perfect, like the hand prime tool which I gave up on after 3 of them broke. Lee did send new parts but my thumbs could not stand another 10 years of swelling. I now use the RCBS Auto Prime Tool and my thumbs have returned to their normal size.

So here is a case where the "better" tool needs modification to size cases correctly like the Lee tool did. Rather than spend $60 to have the RCBS size die faced off on a lathe, I instead ordered a new die set. Perhaps the new set will size the cases fully when adjusted to kiss the shell holder. We shall see.

Ultimately my issue was headspace, caused not by the cut chamber, but instead by the incorrectly sized case. One must know however how to evaluate and measure headspace in a T/C barrel. Headspace may be .003" with a barrel/frame gap of .50". Watch Mike Bellm's video about this. An important side note here is that a high primer in one of these cases could have led to an out-of-battery firing on the gun when the action was forcibly snapped shut. That's not an event I wish to experience with a Contender.

I mention all this to point out that our first guess as to why something won't work may not be the root cause at all. Careful thought is usually required along with knowledge of how things "should" work in a particular situation. That takes careful observation and learned knowledge. Correcting handloading and firearm issues are not usually done with a quick fix or a Dremel tool.

Safe Shooting!!

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
  • Glenn R. Latham
Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Aaron posted this 23 June 2024

Think about this:

A bolt action rifle would chamber the incorrectly sized cases due to the camming action of the bolt. An AR-15 or other semi-auto rifle would chamber them due to the driving force of the bolt. Ponder that Einstein.

I only discovered this issue because of the hinge-action of the T/C. Also, I do NOT slam my Contender actions closed on my guns like some folks do. Makes me cringe when I see that firearm abuse.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 23 June 2024

Reading your two posts reminds me of my experience with the 32/20 contender. Rim thickness at SAAMI spec's at .060", but the reality is more like .048-.052". So with stacking tolerances, I ended up headspacing on the shoulder and bullet leade. Luckily the Contender has the smallest and tightest chamber and its ammo fits all of my other 32/20s. 

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 23 June 2024

I know what you mean with the 32-20! It's one of my favorite barrels for sod poodle elimination. I use the 110gr PBHP .308 bullets atop a healthy dose of H110 propellant. That combo rocks as a varmint cartridge in the T/C. Here is a link to a video of that combo shooting.

?feature=shared

Tolerance stacking is a very real issue as I have learned over the years. One has to diagnose the matter to find all the contributory issues.

 

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
rhbrink posted this 23 June 2024

I have an Encore .223 and my experience is opposite as the chamber is too long. Cases fired in that barrel will not fit my Savage .223 unless the shoulder is pushed back. If I then shoot them in the Encore again, I get case separation. So, I have to adjust my dies for the Encore and keep that brass separate from the Savage brass. I call my .223 Encore a .223 &1/2, it does shoot well though!  

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 23 June 2024

Richard,

I respectfully offer that your chamber is probably not too long or deep. It sounds like your sizing die is kissing the shoulder and setting it back allowing the sized case to go too deep into the chamber. Your case head should be flush with the rear of the barrel and the only distance it must travel is the gap between the barrel and the frame. A great way to measure all this is to read Mike Bellm's article about it here:

http://www.lasc.us/BellmExperimentContenderEncore.htm

In my case, the shoulder was NOT getting kissed by the size die, and with no barrel/frame gap, the small amount the case head protruded was problematic. This was solved with the Lee die setting the shoulder back ever so much, but in the case of the 38-40, I had to remove .030" off the sizer die mouth to allow it to sit a little deeper in the press before kissing or just off the shell holder. It therefore sized lower on the cartridge case pushing the shoulder down a bit.

Like I mentioned before, a chamber cast is the only true way to determine headspace with that barrel. The chamber shoulder is the datum you need. From that datum to the rear of the barrel, plus the barrel/frame gap, is the true measure of headspace. Of course a headspace gauge will work too! A great way to spend your hot Sunday is to peruse Mike Bellm's articles on the LASC website or on his website.

Shoot Safe!

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

rhbrink posted this 23 June 2024

Nope! I have made a chamber casting and the Encore is considerably visibly longer than the Savage case. Also have a go and no-go headspace gauge, after I take the extractor out of the barrel they both drop out of sight in the Encore. Not a problem after I have figured it out just adjust the sizer die for the Encore or the Savage and keep the ammo marked in separate boxes which I would do anyway. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Aaron
RicinYakima posted this 23 June 2024

I am parcel to the Lyman 311316 HP over 9.5 grains of A2400, a full power Model 92 Winchester rifle load. While not as accurate as some others, it is my most accurate full power load. It is a coyote killer for certain. 

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 25 June 2024

Nope! I have made a chamber casting and the Encore is considerably visibly longer than the Savage case. Also have a go and no-go headspace gauge, after I take the extractor out of the barrel they both drop out of sight in the Encore. Not a problem after I have figured it out just adjust the sizer die for the Encore or the Savage and keep the ammo marked in separate boxes which I would do anyway. 

Now you have me wondering about this. If the cases "drop out of sight", which I believe is an exaggeration, then a factory cartridge will be out of reach of the firing pin. I will assume that factory cartridges will fire in the Encore with normal primer strikes - not light strikes. If that is the case, please measure the distance the unfired, new, factory cartridge base is from the rear face of the barrel. Any dial micrometer like the RCBS dial gauge will have the measurement rod which extends and can be used for this measurement.

I am very curious to know what the distance is between the new, factory cartridge case base, and the rear face of that barrel. While you are at it, what is the the barrel gap measurement? Standard automotive feeler gauges can be used to measure that.

I don't doubt for a moment that what you report is actually the case. However, if a factory unfired cartridge falls into the Encore chamber out of reach of the firing pin, then the gun will not fire and your chamber is truly cut too deep into the barrel OR the barrel is set too far forward in the frame. That distance of course, is regulated by the mating hole in the barrel lug.

Problems with headspace and distances in the T/C family of Contenders and Encore firearms are amplified with cartridges that headspace on the cartridge shoulder like a .223 Remington. Of course the rim recess depth on rimmed cartridges can be an issue but is generally not as much of an issue as rimless cartridges can be. Problematic headspace issues are usually found on re-chambered barrels by gunsmiths who truly do not understand the intricate and interrelated distances on the frame/barrel interface on these fine firearms. Mike Bellm on the other hand, can correct issues such as these with a proper re-chamber to a different cartridge.

 

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 25 June 2024

Richard,

An epiphany came to me in the shower this morning. If your cases fall as deep into the barrel as you indicate, they appear to be falling past the extractor. The extractor should stop the forward motion of the case and you should fee resistance from extractor drag  on the cartridge being chambered. If you do not feel the resistance on the case when inserting it into the chamber, or if the case falls past the extractor claw into the chamber, you have either lost or have a broken flat spring between the extractor and the top of the lug. When you removed your extractor to make a chamber cast, was the flat spring in there and was it intact?

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

rhbrink posted this 25 June 2024

YEP

Attached Files

gemihur posted this 28 June 2024

Aaron,

Why are you sizing with small base dies?

They are intended for semi-auto action reloading.

Still an intriguing thread.

Thanks,

Jimmy

I shoot, therefore I am

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
Larry Gibson posted this 28 June 2024

In my factory TC Contender carbine barrel I size the cases with an RCBS X-die [standard one, not the "AR" one] and they fit perfectly as to chamber dimension including headspace with the shell holder bumping firmly against the bottom of the die and not camming over.

The extractor also snaps into the case extractor groove and firmly hold the case there.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
  • Aaron
Aaron posted this 28 June 2024

Aaron,

Why are you sizing with small base dies?

They are intended for semi-auto action reloading.

Because I also load for a Semi-Auto rifle and do not see the need to two sets of dies.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 28 June 2024

The brand new RCBS die arrived today and like I suspected, it forms cases perfectly fit for the T/C. My original SB RCBS die is probably on the extreme edge of the tolerance spectrum and while it works just fine for the AR platform, it doesn't work for the T/C barrel with a tighter and more precise chamber. The Lee die and the new RCBS die work just fine for the T/C. Problem solved. This was a very interesting analytical exercise.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

Aaron posted this 30 June 2024

Chamber cast of the aforementioned Contender. I like to never got the cast out of the chamber. This barrel fortunately has a good throat .150" in length. I can't define the leade to measure it so no number there. Note to self: do not use a steel wool ball to seal the bore. Live and learn. Live and learn. 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

Close