What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

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CB posted this 07 January 2008

What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

What type of rifle or handgun do you consider to give the best accuracy?

What load do you use to get the best accuracy?

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billwnr posted this 07 January 2008

If we're talking Heavy class I think good accuracy is 0.6” and below for a 5 shot group at 100 yards. That size group won't win any awards but it's a good starting point. I think 0.4” and below is excellent.

If we are talking military shooting in the Modified Scope class I think 1.7” 10 shot groups at 100 should be classed as good, 1.5” as excellent and 1.3 (and below)” as exceptional.

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linoww posted this 07 January 2008

What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

What type of rifle or handgun do you consider to give the best accuracy?

What load do you use to get the best accuracy?

With a standard sporting rifle in 30 caliber with a good bore up to 300 WinMag.capacity I think 1.5 MOA is a realistic goal..I usuallly use 2400 or 4759 and get this fairly easy.I use the RCBS 180 SP for most loads for this stuff.I try to get the velocity to a bit above 1600 for either powder.

With a heavy Varmint production class gun without any throating,but bumping or tapering I think 3/4 MOA is a goal that can be had in some guns,but not all.I have had  equally good luck with Savage or Remingtons in 308. I  cant understand how Mike Mohler gets his Ruger .243 to shoot such small groups!! I also am having decent luck with 1-12 twist 22-250 Savage rifles with cast bullets.I can get the Savage 12 BVSS to average 3/4” or a tad below for 4 five shot groups at 100 in good conditions(sometimes).My 308's seem to shoot 18.5 W296 great  (I never go much above or below this charge with this powder and have found it to be safe in my guns) The 22-250 likes 4759,5744 or 2400 equally well. The RCBS 180 sp,Eagan MX3-30 ARD in the 308 and the Eagan MX3-22's or an LBT 60Sp tapered bullet in the 22's.I shoot the 308's at 1800 fps or so and the 22's at 2200 fps.

I havnt played with my heavy stuff as seriously lately but when I do I expect to see many 1/2” groups at 100 and  under 1.25” at 200 much of the time(5 shot groups).This is a 30 BR sleeved Remington 700.Scott 3032 or 4198 work for me with the RCBS 180 Sp again being a good bullet if not just a bit to light for 200 yd work.Velocites in the 2000fps range with each load.

 

With a plinker load such as plainbase 30-06 shooting,30 -30 levers, Ruger #1 357 Mag pistol and rifle bullets,7.62 x 39 Boltguns or S.S.'s with plainbase I am happy with 2 MOA.In the 30-30 levers I get a bit larger groups on the whole,but still acceptable. As long as it is consitant and the mold is high production and the powder charge low.Up to 150 yards they are good enough for field plinking.I like 700X for this and I have alot on hand and get it pretty chep at times.My favorite bullet is my 4 cavity SAECO #630 in  the.30's.  It is a plainbase FN of about 140 grains.The 357 shoots any pistol bullet well at short range,but seems to prefer most RN bullets over Keith type designs by a touch.The Lyman 358311,358212 and H&G #17 are good designs.At 100 and beyond the RCBS 250 SP is the top choice but I have to taper the  oversized nose in a 218 Bee seating die to get the bullet out of the case.With 13.0 W296 it has shot as small as 1.25” at 100 a few times and averages under 2 MOA at 100 almost all of the time.Hits steel gongs pretty hard too!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 07 January 2008

George I usually get about the same as you with my 12bvss, some days a little smaller than 3/4MOA.

I am interested in the 357 Mag rifle loads. I just picked up a NEF with a 357 Mag barrel and a 44 Mag barrel to plink with and see how accurate I can get it to shoot (remember that discussion on how those types of rifles are inherently inaccurate?)

In either of my 06's I think 1.5 MOA is good considering one is a pump and the other is my shot out F class gun.

When I can pry the heavy gun away from the wife, I can get it to shoot 1/2 MOA most of the time.

I use about the same bullets as you, that 180sp is a great little bullet and I got an Eagan mx2 that makes a shorter version of the MX4-30-ARD bullet that works real good in the 06's.

So tell me, did you win the bid on that MX4-30-ARD cherry?? I was watching that one. Almost thought about jumpin in the fray, but I saw it was you and let it be.. I was thinking about trying to get a multiple cavity mould cut..

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RicinYakima posted this 08 January 2008

357 Mag rifle loads:

RCBS 200 grains FP, without gascheck, works well with 3.0 grains of 700X for a quiet plinking load. Or the same bullet with 10.0 grains of A2400 for a full field load.

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CB posted this 08 January 2008

You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it...

I want to see for myself if one of these can be made to shoot accurately enough to be competitive. I plan on shooting it plain base so it won't be blazing fast. I am working on slugging the throat to get something Veral can work from and using a push through slug to get the nominal groove dia and determine twist rate.

I see a need to make a forum to deal with “special projects” such as this! It should be fun!

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linoww posted this 08 January 2008

So tell me, did you win the bid on that MX4-30-ARD cherry?? I was watching that one. Almost thought about jumpin in the fray, but I saw it was you and let it be.. I was thinking about trying to get a multiple cavity mould cut.

Yes I did and it will be going to Old West next month to make a three cavity for myself.I will give all aheads up when the cherriy is there.I have there others wanting one.

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 08 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it...

I want to see for myself if one of these can be made to shoot accurately enough to be competitive. I plan on shooting it plain base so it won't be blazing fast. I am working on slugging the throat to get something Veral can work from and using a push through slug to get the nominal groove dia and determine twist rate.

I see a need to make a forum to deal with “special projects” such as this! It should be fun!

I have had the same thought,but will go with one in .444 if I find one.I hear the barrels are better than before.I love my Ruger #1 357 and have a #3 forend with a bit of lead(for balance) in it for offhand work.It is a 1-"A” barrel and is pretty darn light for offhand,but the NEF's balance real nice.

Joe Gifford a guy newer on the board just made a .32 mag NEF from a 12ga shotgun  by sleeving it with a 1-10” take off 30-06 barrel.It also would be a nice offhand gun.

 

George

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 09 January 2008

I've long since burned out on and drifted away from competition shooting and care little for it anymore. I feel that most of it is contrived and bears no relation to reality. My needs are simple and “agricultural” to borrow the late Frank Marshall's term.

If a pistol, revolver or rifle isn't suited to carry on a walk in the woods or mountains, I have little use for it. So, if a cast bullet load provides safe, economical and reliable service which approximates that of factory ammunition from the firearm of interest, I'm happy.

I'm not seeking one-hole, sub-minute of angle ten-ring and x-ring. The basic requirement is that any useful load must shoot more accurately and farther than I can see with the unaided naked eye.

A pistol or revolver load should deliver groups no worse than one-inch-per-ten yards for casual shooting and practice to equal Franks “Ball Ammo” accuracy standard. To be considered accurate enough for “Small Game and Camp Meat” the expectation is to hit a target the size of a squirrel's or grouse's head, at a range suitable for the gun of choice with whatever sights are on it.

For an iron-sighted handgun, the range at which a fair handgun shot can see well enough to make humane head shots on small game is about 25 yards or so. Any pistol, revolver or light walking rifle load which shoots reliable inch groups at 25 yards pretty much on demand, any time with iron sights is simply splendid.

For a utility hunting rifle the standard of performance is how far you can safely identify legal game under field conditions and make clean kills with well placed body shots. It makes no real difference here whether you are talking about deer, turkey, woodchuck, coyote, etc.

A “clay pigeon” is about 4 inches in diameter. It is a readily obtained, iron-sight or low powered hunting hunting scope practice target which approximates the vital area of a game animal. Using plain iron sights and typical lever action rifles, any load capable of placing 4 inch groups on target at 100 yards would put lots of meat on the table. Military bolt actions meet this standard rather handily and are deemed serviceable for combat.

For sporting weight small game or varmint rifles normally used with a scope of less than 6 power, carried and shot from typical field positions the 4-inch grouping range extends to about 150 yards, unless you are a shooter of above average skill.   

For a heavy caliber big game rifle the 4-inch group benchmark gets pushed out to about 200 yards.  A two-minute rifle will do the job in the vast majority of cases.

For a heavy-barreled varmint or miliary sniper rifle using service ammo the 4-inch benchmark gets pushed out to 300 yards or meters. That's reality.

All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree. 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 09 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote: I've long since burned out on and drifted away from competition shooting and care little for it anymore. I feel that most of it is contrived and bears no relation to reality. My needs are simple and “agricultural” to borrow the late Frank Marshall's term.

All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

Ed Do I detect a bit of cynicism in your voice?

Perhaps I should of qualified my question a bit more...

I know the whole world does not revolve around competitive shooting, there is a great number of people that just like to go out and plink or hunt or shoot acorns out of oak trees on a walk through the woods.

Personally I like to do all of that and I enjoy competitive shooting also. Not so much to see if I can do better than the fellow on the next bench, but there is a social aspect I enjoy also.

For many there is an instintual need to strive to be the best that you can be. I share that need with many others. This leads to experimentation and development of new methods, equipment and designs to acheive better accuracy. This may not be everyone's cup of tea, but there is no reason everyone should'nt be able to benefit from it.

I guess the whole point is this, To have fun doing what you like to do.

I plan on going and having some fun tomorrow!B)

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linoww posted this 09 January 2008

All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

 

Did you think my accuracy expectations were not honest?? I know if it is a pistol i sure cant shoot alot of 1” groups anymore with my astignitism.Thats why I gave no pistol loads.

We have a genleman in our club who was 3 time IHMSA World Champ and helped design a few Freedon Arms & Browning guns.He makes such accuracy claims,but I have of yet seen the representative consistant groups at the range.I myself am happy with easy to assemble 2MOA  riflel oads.Even if I get a few “leekers” as long as most of the core grouping go true it's better than I can do offhand.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 09 January 2008

Jeff, linoww, et al

Yes, I confess that I've grown cynical. But no offense is intended or taken. All have right to their opinions and adults should cheerfully disagree. All makes for lively discussion.

Those who enjoy bench shooting and can afford their expensive toys are welcome to their fun. I was one of them once.

I have observed that the temptation is overwhelming to want to accept as “normal” those wonderful random variations of chance, the “fluke groups” which, of course are not typical. Then, there are the very few, extremely talented and lucky, and indeed there truly are some, who can actually do it on demand, any time they want.

I salute them. They shall enjoy their youth and skill as long as it lasts.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 09 January 2008

I used to hot rod cars back in the late 60s and 70s, muscle car era. I then motocrossed in the mid and late 70s. I just love to tune, tweak, modify, blue print, adjust, adapt and convert the cars and dirt bikes to squeeze everybit of performance out a them I could get. When I used to ride a motorcycle, it was always wide open or on the brakes, going 120mph routinely(with my street bike). I accredit that behaviour to flow into my cb shooting, continually striving for something better in accuracy. When I shoot 1” groups, I then want 3/4". When I hit 3/4", I then want 1/2", then .3". I find punching one-hole .5” groups just a blast!

I'm not much on competition either Ed, but its a way to see where you are at among similar shooters. I never drag raced pro, but did a lota highway drags. I never won a motocross race, but sure had fun beating and bashing the dirt bike all over the track!

From my observations on CBA NT competition:

Production Class to compete 1"-.7” groups, top five places .5"-.3"groups 

HVY, UNR, and PBB to compete .6"-.3", top five places .2” and better groups

CBA Military Rifle to win: Mod Scope .7", Mod Iron and Issue .8"-1"

1/2 MOA = Great prairie dog shots!

HAPPINESS  Me in 1977 Yamaha 400YZ POWER! One-hole Groups WHATA BLAST!

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 09 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it... ....

I spent the 115 $ for a factory installed .357 mag barrel for my SB2 NEF frame.

You will find that in THAT caliber there is about 3/4” wide open tapered hole ( I hesitate to use the word 'throat' ) between the end of the case and the start of the rifling.  Tapered enough so's you can't get a breech seater in close enough to the rifling and long enough so the bullet is not supported AT ALL after leaving the end of the case!

My next try at accuracy with that barrel is to rechamber it to .357 Max to get a little closer to a SAAMI chamber.

SHOULD be a lot of fun if I can ever get it to shoot right.

I'd like MOA at 100 yards, but will settle now for minute-of-beercan.

 

 

 

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CB posted this 09 January 2008

Uh, would that be an empty or full bear can?

I shot it sunday with some “loads” ( I use that term loosely) that were given to me at an indoors rage and it did fairly well about 1” at 25 yards. That was with a hunk of 4x4 for a rest. I plan to shoot it tomorrow at 50 yards and see how it does. I got a 44 mag barrel for it if the 357 does prove out well. I will have to look down the pipe and see if I can see the big open place you are describing..

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delmarskid1 posted this 10 January 2008

I like a cast bullet load that makes the jacket bullet guy go, “You did that with a cast bullet?” That gives me a bunch of satisfaction. It doesn't matter if they are shooting a good varmint gun or whatever else. It is just the gratification of knowing that someone is impressed by a load that I made up using left-over car tire stuff and Czechoslavakian army surplus powder that can make them pay attention. That is my definition of good cast bullet accuracy. I don't always get to shoot that well but I do get to shoot a LOT!

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linoww posted this 10 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote-

Then, there are the very few, extremely talented and lucky, and indeed there truly are some, who can actually do it on demand, any time they want.

 

I went out with Ric Bowmans buddy Joe to shoot his .32 Mag bunny gun yesterday.Brought my 1903 Springer with A lyman 48 that never shoots over 2” at 100 for 5 shots.Well... except for yesterday<G> On demand,no.Often when i am at alone with no pressure ,yup.I did the old “change the load last minute"deal to really get it shooting.Shuld have stayed with 16.5 of 2400,18.5 opened up the groups about 1” at 100.I was getting “tippers” at 100 with the long Eagan MX30-US bullet and though it needed more velocity.Round holes,but bad groups,go figure.Back to square one!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 11 January 2008

delmarskid1 wrote: I like a cast bullet load that makes the jacket bullet guy go, “You did that with a cast bullet?” That gives me a bunch of satisfaction. It doesn't matter if they are shooting a good varmint gun or whatever else. It is just the gratification of knowing that someone is impressed by a load that I made up using left-over car tire stuff and Czechoslavakian army surplus powder that can make them pay attention. That is my definition of good cast bullet accuracy. I don't always get to shoot that well but I do get to shoot a LOT!

Bingo! Yup!

 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 11 January 2008

I am glad to see your hobby area looking much like mine.Our current house was purchased because it had a 24 x 30 shop detached from the house.It's “my world” and the wife cant say a thing.it look slike you have the same brand of fluxing tool i do.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 11 January 2008

Yup, and here's what it looks like when I flux a 50 lb. melt during an ingot run! It looks worse here than it really is because the box fan is blowing the smoke cloud raised prior to flaring the flux towards the camera.   Once it lights off no new smoke is generated.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 11 January 2008

You also have the same fan stand that i use.I got the neighboor into casting for his 357 and 45 colt.We took a 5 gallon bucket of w/w and batched it up.His first time seeing the flash from fluxing I knew he was hooked.We just used motor oil as I forgot my NEI flux.I think it worked as well as anything.My dad said it's what they used in the print shot to flux the lino before re-ingoting.

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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AMMOe posted this 20 January 2008

I don't wonder if shooters from 50 years ago would call many modern shooters "spoiled panty waists” for insisting a rifle shoot MOA?? Ed is right with regards to practical accuracy. A 2 MOA rifle will kill deer handily. History proves it, if not personal experience. If a 2MOA rifle was inadequate for deer we'd be over-run. I remember the guy who gave me my Krag reloading gear when I was a poor teenager who lucked into a Krag Sporter for $35. This guy was the range keeper at the local sportsmans club and he helped me assemble some handloads for my new purchase. I shot 2” from a rest at 100 yards using the flip-up peep on the rear sight and old Dutch said that I had a damned fine rifle. I was a little disappointed and told him so, at which point he picked up my rifle and proceeded to belt the daylights out of a 12” gong set up at the 100 yard line, off hand. “Let me know if you get tired of it” was all he said.

I have a hot cast load for my triple deuce that tosses an RCBS 22-055FN at 2750 and wil hold 1.3” when the gods are smiling. I consider that accurate.

I have a Haenel-built 1888 Commission Mauser Sporter in 8x57J that will shoot under two inches at 50M with open express sights using a full case of 4831 and an LBT  .321” Flat point. I also consider that accurate. A recently purchased Speed Lee conversion Light Express  Rifle in .303 British has shot some 2” 50M groups using a relatively inappropriate bullet that needed to jump a healthy bit to get to the rifling and I consider that accurate as well.

I used to get rankled if I couldn't get sub MOA from a cast bullet rifle but not any more. LIke Ed, I have toned it down over the years.  I do have a few that will perform that way if I work at it. I have a Brno 98 Mauser I rebarreled with an Israeli-contract .308 barrel that will shoot MOA and better for three shots with a tapered, heat-treated 30-180SP shot at freeway speeds. I rely on that accuracy and I get it. It is my “go-to” hunting rifle when I want a scoped CB tosser. I consider that rifle a rare jewel.

With regard to handgun loads: I never test handgun loads from the bench. I am a competent and confident handgunner. If I expect to hit a mark and I don't-and can't rule out a lapse in personal discipline-  I consider the load suspect. ~Andy

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CB posted this 20 January 2008

Being a bit of a perfectionist, oh hell who am I kidding.. I am a perfectionist.

Depending what I am shooting and for what purpose determines what I would be content with.

Of course when competition shooting I expect all of the rounds to hit the same hole as the last, and that is my goal, which sometimes and most times is not reality.

Hunting I judge whether I effectively and humanely take the game I am aiming at. That is a fairly large target most of the time. I switched to cast bullets because I wanted to give the game a fair chance.. With jacketed it got to be boring, no sport for me, no excitement, no challenge.

There is something to be said for the satisfaction of shooting well with something you basically “made from scratch", it is called personal fulfillment and it is different for each person.

It is not the point of such a discussion to argue about what the definition of accuracy is, but to see what other people within the same discipline view as accurate and perhaps learn something.

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CB posted this 20 January 2008

Jeff,

Haven't seen Joe around for a while, but maybe we could do something like he always did and make a chart or list?

Criteria of Accuracy:

Barn Accuracy =  Anything with a barrel that spits out a CB to put more than one bullet hole somewhere on the barn. Distance; from here or back there. (somewhere in the barn yard)

Barn-door Accuracy = Anything with a barrel that spits out a CB to put a hole in a specific barndoor resembling a recognizable pattern or group. Distance; from here to back there. (somewhere in the barn yard)

Rusty-old Chevy Accuracy = Any rifle, shotgun, or handgun with accuracy capable of putting a hole into the sheet metal somewhere between previous holes. Bigger the bore the better. Distance; anywhere in the back 40. (old water heaters or washers and dryers may also be used)

Milk-jug Accuracy = Any rifle, shotgun, or handgun. Fill an old milkjug full of water. Classify the resulting affect as; Trickle - Splash - Spray - Mist. This is more of an accuracy affect/power of a given caliber and load. Distance; as close as needed for a square hit.

Beer-can Accuracy = Any repeating type rifle and handgun. This is not a one-shot-one kill accuracy skill level. Revolver and self-loading handguns excel here by bouncing the beer can on the ground around and around repeatedly till the cylinder or clip is empty. Shots impacted while beer can is in the air is classified as exceptional accuracy.

Sapling Accuracy = For hunting handguns. When I've asked how the new handgun shot, I've heard this more than once! Pick a 3"-4” sapling through the timber at a distance where you can get a clean shot through the brush. Fire several cylinder fulls of ammo, shooting till the sapling falls over, or until you can't take the recoil anymore. Accuracy and powder is gauged by how many rounds it took for the sapling tp topple. This accuracy doesn't apply to slug guns.

Rock-chucking Accuracy = For mountain and desert states only. All we have is mud here in farmland. Distance; Rifles as far as possible and still be able to see a grapefruit size rock disintegrates. Handguns; never any closer than possible, avoiding dangerous rock shrapnel or a ricochet. This is more or less a 'checking zero' thing, or a way to vent frustration after hunting all morning and not seeing anything alive to shoot at.

Empty-shell Accuracy = My old buddy liked this one. Take out those empty 12ga shells from your hunting coat (they smell so good) and line them up on some fence posts. Be sure to only put one or two on a post to avoid accidental hits. Accuracy is gauged by 100% hits and then calculate the distance you can do that at. Spent 22lr shells are preferred by the elite shootists.

Range-trash Accuracy = Pick up unbroken clay birds at your club's range. Shoot at them somewhere where people will be sure to see the broken up mess, usually in the parking area or right in front of the firing line. Shoot holes also in target shacks, porta-potties, gates and range roofs. This leaves evidence of your remarkable shooting accomplishments. This accuracy is for those shooters with no real direction, focus, or goals, except to cause disruption to constructed shooting programs.

Bar-room Accuracy = This applies to paper punchers. If you're going to show off your shooting skills to your bar buddies, always be sure to be centered on the bullseye. The common person sees absolutely no value at all in a 1/2 inch group at 200 yards when it is 2” from the bullseye! They have no idea what 200 yards is unless you say 2 football fields.

Position-shooter Accuracy = The common high-power or even small-bore shooter pays little attention to load accuracy. In Baseball, only the pitcher is concerned about throwing accurately or fast. The others just play their position. These shooters are the same way, they are more concerned about their physical skill holding in position, and improving all their shooting gear. When asked about their load accuracy, they don't know. They are more concerned about load performance so they can handle recoil, not having to deal with a hot barrel and how clean their barrel stays during the match.

Bench-rest Accuracy = These shooters are in a whole different world. They're finicky and determined shooters, critiquing the most minuscule affects to their load, rifle and bench equipment. No group accuracy is ever good enough.

 

 

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billwnr posted this 20 January 2008

I must be a spoiled pantywaist as 2” groups won't cut it, unless it's open sighted revolvers at 25 yards.

With rifles I want lots better...lots.

I also think those shooters who would use sneer about someone wanting to shoot small groups can't do it themselves.

besides... Willems is a pantywaist.

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AMMOe posted this 20 January 2008

Who's sneering at folks who want to shoot small groups? My reference was purely historical. I am old enough to remember when “fine accuracy” from a hunting rifle was 1.5 MOA. Now it seems to be considered shabby performance.

I have had my share of shooting small groups with lead over the last few decades. Now all I want are big deer with classic rifles and I'm too damned old to waste time fussing over a 1.5 - 2 MOA group that is perfectly capable of getting me that deer. I always work at smaller, but when I'm shooting iron sights over a 100+ year old rifle I feel that I've achieved accuracy at that level.

If you're implying that Ed Harris can't shoot small groups you must be new around here.~Andy

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billwnr posted this 20 January 2008

I'm not new here nor did I imply Ed couldn't shoot and you thought we were pantywaists.

I will say I'm not into making rifles go bang. I want them to hit the center.

I cannot speak for what articles of clothing Dan wears, though.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it...

I want to see for myself if one of these can be made to shoot accurately enough to be competitive.

I see a need to make a forum to deal with “special projects” such as this! It should be fun!


Ok, I propose  that a special subclass be established, using the HR/NEF broken back rifle, in .357 Mag,  and that a corresponding  match(es ) be organized amongst the Heathen &  Unwashed on this forum to shoot cast bullets, using as simple and as few rules as possible ... with few rules, it's harder to break any !!  Targets are to be available at any Walmart mostly,  and shooters are mostly on the honor system ....  buy your own targets, and send in photos of your results, with a ruler in the photo.......


The Goal (1) :: have as much fun as possible as long as possible. The Goal (2):: figger out how to take those cheap/neat HR/NEF popperrifles in a fun handgun catridge and make them shoot 5 shots into less than 2 moa. Rules ( to be argued & modified here ):: Start out with a box stock H&R .357 Mag .  You can gently modify as you go along, but you must tell the rest of us all your schemes. Any Rest, Any Scope, Modified Trigger Ok, Modified Chamber OK ( but you gotta tell us what you did ) ...modified stock ok ) ... barrel tuners and pressurizers ok, but gotta tell all about it ... Bullets :: Cast only,  more or less ... NOT OVER 200 GRAIN bullets, this is a long barreled pistol, not a rifle remember. ...  swaging after cast allowed, since everyone does it anyway ...  Gas Checks allowed ... hmmm...  or not ... hmmmm  ...naked lead only, no jacketes/paper patching .....        ????


For Bragging Rights only, no $$ prizes, no entry fees... could be modified to pay Jeff ( or somebody ) $1.50 per hour to ramrod this special group  project.


There !!  The Goblet is thrown!  The Lance is thrust !  The Wolves are in the Sh**  ! 

whatcha think, dudes and dudesses ??  a group buy for H&R 357 brokenbacks?

ken in iowa

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AMMOe posted this 20 January 2008

Good. That wasn't my intention at all. ~Andy

billwnr wrote: I'm not new here nor did I imply Ed couldn't shoot and you thought we were pantywaists.

I will say I'm not into making rifles go bang. I want them to hit the center.

I cannot speak for what articles of clothing Dan wears, though.

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CB posted this 21 January 2008

OK guys; NRA hunter pistol silhoutte, big bore, iron sights division. Using a 1967 model Ruger super blackhawk in 44 mag. Florida state games in 2003 and again in 2004, here are the loads that took the gold. 40 meter chickens; 210gr sw/4.2 gr Red dot 50 meter pigs ; 210gr sw/5.0 gr Red dot 75 meter turkeys ; 300gr sw/5.0 gr Red dot 100 meter rams ; 300gr sw/6.2 gr Red dot Seat to top of crimp ring and crimp tight. This made possible shooting all ranges with no sight adjustment. The same information was made available to all my competitors and some were gifted with the same projectiles for use against me. I haven't even placed since. Sometimes we are too smart for ourselves. The big stupid still has a lot of fun loosing. Roy

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Keith posted this 21 January 2008

Ed if you are able to find a local sporting clays range you should be able buy a mini target. These are about 2 inchs in diameter. They make a great kids target for 22s or adults for that matter.

For accuracy I want a gun and load that are good enough that I can be confident that the misses or a large group size are due to the shooter and not the equipment.

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linoww posted this 21 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

What type of rifle or handgun do you consider to give the best accuracy?

What load do you use to get the best accuracy?

Sunday in 10-20 mph(estimate) gusts with blowing snow at 30 deg......I consider the 5"-5-1/2” 10 shot groups at 200 yds to pretty good.It was with a Springfield 1903 with a Lyman 48 issue post ft and 17.0 2400 and the Eagan MX3-30 US (200g),no holdoff..I was actually surprised it bucked the wind as well as it did!!It move the calm weather P.O.I. 8” to the wind!!

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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[email protected] posted this 24 January 2008

    I too agree with ED he has good points about the clay bird;).  If i can shoot the center out of it @ 100 yds then do the same @ 400 yds with my 30-06 180 gr cast load free hand then im happy.  All the rest of these guys hauling around a 13 lb and up^ monster to  a match is great.....but again can you take it to a field and carry it for half a hour to a day on a hunt? (mine was 9lbs 11oz with scope and sling, wood stock, Savage 110).  I would rather have a gun that is both part match and part hunting rather than two guns that do individual things that you have to load up and remember for.  But this is a free world (or is it??) so feel free to tell me if im right or wrong “using the second amendment to protect the first"  Tinman

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Ranch Dog posted this 24 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

What type of rifle or handgun do you consider to give the best accuracy?

What load do you use to get the best accuracy? With respect to rifles:

<>Sub-MOA <>They all have potential <*>A full case of an appropriate “rifle” powder

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Ed Harris posted this 24 January 2008

For the 2-inch 25 yard thing with handguns and iron-sighted .22s, etc. We used Saltine or Ritz crackers, spoiled eggs, rotten apples, etc.

Aka: Hunting Campfire Light Trash Accuracy.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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44 Flattop posted this 01 April 2008

Well, my intended answer ended up agreeing with Ed by the time I got to his answer.  Though I often shoot 10's of thousand of rounds per year,  I am a hunter first.  I want something with enough power and accuracy to kill a deer and elk out to usually around 200 yards.  1” groups are fine but I want to shoot plumb through an deer.  1/2” groups are fantastic (though I've shot few of them!) but I need a blood trail from both sides of an elk more than anything else. 

I'm not embarrassed to admit my most consistantly accurate cast bullet rifle is a 1936 348.  It is rare I get a group over 1.5 MOA, but I've also never cracked .75 MOA.  But man, does that 265gr Saeco @ about 2050fps knock the snot out of these big bodied Roosevelt elk we have around here :fire:D

I have a Marlin CB in 38-55 that also is an elk killing machine with cast that will do a hair under 2 MOA.  I'm happy with it's performance.  I took one bull at 60 yards that didn't move after the shot other than hitting the ground, another at about 3X that distance took about 3 steps.  That was perfect accuracy for me.  Not only that, but this rifle has definate 'minute of grouse head' accuracy all day long!  I want to be able to thread the needle between fir tree's and be able to bust that bull that is just peeking out from behind a big fir and be able to hit him under the chin. 

As for pistols, I shoot lots of .44's in Ruger Flattops.  Pretty much exclusively anymore.  One hole groups are the norm for most loads I use, at about 30 yards.  I need them to handle deer and elk out to 75 yards or so and then 'minute of grouse head' at 20-30 yards. 

I find the fact that there are fella's out there (here actually!) that can shoot better than 1 MOA consistantly in competition absolutely fascinating.  Our sport needs that.  My own needs aren't near that, but just that it can be done is just so cool! B)B)

44

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jhalcott posted this 06 April 2008

  BINGO # 2!

I love that reaction. It is only better when I am using a hand gun!! Many times the gawker will accept my offer to shoot a couple him/herself. I had a “gentleman” remark that it “looked like I was using a shot gun to shoot THAT group"!! He was busy on the 50 yard line and I was shooting 4 different groups at 200 yards. On the SAME target. I asked if he'd like to shoot some for me to be certain I wasn't the cause of the LARGE groups. He shot 5 shots ,all touching at 50 yards ,and asked where I got that load. He wanted some for hunting season!!

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45caliber posted this 22 July 2008

I can usually shoot under an inch with my Marlin 1895 45-70, the 420 cast are very accurate when I do my part. The other rifles I have are capable of well under an inch as well, but I don't worry about groups in the field as the conditions are very different. I freehand shoot most of my game and I wait for the best shot to present itself. :)

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DonH posted this 22 July 2008

Ed Harris wrote: All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree. 8-)

AMEN!

 

Not to say there are not rifles which will do it; there are, both varmint and competition. But plain facts are (and here I am preaching to the choir to some) the there are many variables which MUST be accounted for in order to shoot those kinds of groups at longer ranges. Add to those the basic techniques of accurate shooting. Only a small percentage of shooters are able to place a shot precisely on demand regardless of conditions (wind, light,mirage, relative humidity, etc) and distance. If this were not so every soldier or marine would be a sniper. And few can accurately estimate range.

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jhalcott posted this 22 July 2008

 Another thing that is important to long range shooting is PRACTICE ! I had an injury that prevented me from getting to the range for several months. I was surprised when I started shooting at 200 yards with a VERY accurate gun and load. My groups were much larger than I had been used to. Accuracy came back after quite a bit of practice.

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hunterspistol posted this 26 July 2008

:coffee      I'm almost afraid to wander in on this question, but my accuracy isn't extremely demanding.  Shooting silhouette(for fun, mostly) only requires about a 1&1/2” group from about any cast bullet.  Of course, I'm only shooting 100 meters and the target won't stand up and run away.  But, with 10” barrels, it's hard enough to shoot offhand-there isn't another way to shoot hunter's pistol silhouette-yet.

 Excellent article  on pocket guns, Mr. Harris.  I really enjoyed the article, good to see a collector share the knowledge with the rest of us.

 

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tturner53 posted this 25 April 2009

Coming in late here, but what is realistic accuracy to expect from the NEF/H&R break actions? I have several, none of them shoot that good so far. The best of the bunch is a full stocked 30-30, but I have a Hornet, 45-70,.223 and .223 Super Light.

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CB posted this 21 July 2009

OK Guys

Time to fess up.. Are you measuring core shots and closing your eyes on the wide ones. I have a Dewey and a Jones of calipers and can measure any group up to 30 cal. I measure to .001. Send what you want for a re-measure.

For small rifle cast no BR 1 1/2” at 100 is common. For large rifle 2” is accepable. Lets be real about this most factory rifle can get down ro a 2 lb trigger if careful. This alone will cause your wide shots.

Go back and read my windflag post. No flags no control of conditions. I'll sit next to anybody and shoot group for group. With cast bullets things on the target will change real quick sharing the same breathing space with me. I kinda side with Ed here cast bullet accuracy looks better on an animal, 1 minute of animal is good enough.

I can and will convert one my 1/4” BR barrels into Cast  Bullets use then we'll get proof to the pudding. I have my own BR competition I have no time for cast bullet BR, besides the Ranges are too far from me.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

 

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JetMech posted this 22 July 2009

I don't know what you're shooting, Stephen, but, from my understanding, most BR rifles will run you $3-5000. Most guys here shoot $3-500 firearms. The inherent accuracy of a BR gun shooting CBs will top my 1903 Springfield every time. Lets compare apples to apples.

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CB posted this 22 July 2009

Bill I have the 3-5 thou BR guns and the 1-500 factory ones also. I am to the best of my ability trying to seperate the two here.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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RicinYakima posted this 22 July 2009

Well, looking at the Production match scores, I would say that you have to be shooting 3/4 MOA to be running with the top shooters. Having been shooting cast bullet benchrest for just 12 years, I would say that there are two factors: ability to read the wind shooting those soft wads of gum we call bullets, and the ability to craft, at the loading bench, ammo that that rifle likes. FWIW, Ric

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billwnr posted this 22 July 2009

Stephen, Since you've shot jacketed benchrest and am now making a foray into cast bullet benchrest...what are you getting for results? It's very similiar, but a different breed of cat since one must be proficient at producing good projectiles.

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CB posted this 22 July 2009

Bill

I think cast is a more difficult game than jacketed, more variables. I have only shot generic cast in rifle and some pistol. I have 25+ BR barrels some near new most middle or well seasoned. I have 5 choices if I want to gear up for BR Cast. I don't want to compete be cause all my travel and ammo money goes into NBRSA shooting and the Cast shoots are too far away..

I have a 788 with Hart barrel in 6X47 that shoots an honest .3 agg at 100. I have a 6 Rem bull barrel no ID that shoot 3/4 agg at 100. I have a BR gun with a .222 barrel I can spin that shoots .4 now at 100.  I have 2 light bag BR guns that multiple barrel choices. All these barrels are shooting jacketed. These would be my choices for Cast. My comp barrels agg .1-.3.

Of coarse I can't get to all these combinations in my lifetime and don't want to. I just last night bought my dedicated Cast BR scope. It is a Lyman 20X FCH and dot. I will be moving this around till I find a home for it.

Cast bullet need not be complicated. I like to tinker and make cartridges for a penny ot two each, if they shoot good that's a bonus. When I make jacketed my bullet jacket before I put the core in cost more than the cast. I can already out shoot everybody on my Range with my jacketed I make 100 & 200. I hope to do the same with my cast.

 

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 23 July 2009

When you get to the point you are making good cast bullets you'll realize you value them more than what match jacketed bullets cost. They might be cheap for material.... but the labor you invest will be pricey.

I'd recommend you base your BR gun off of either the PPC or BR case. If you use one of the .222 actions you can always make a tool to reduce the rim diameter of you case to fit the bolt face. From what I've seen the PPC case will give you 100% loading density, the BR case will fill to the base of the neck.

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CB posted this 23 July 2009

Bill

I agree with you on the PPC. I have maybe 20 PPC barrels 5 I would consider to use for Cast. I make my jacketed BR bullets, 22 and 6, so cost is low.

Bill I have a 6BR Short Rail barrel I'm not using. Probably could shoot 1/4” 100 yd groups with it if I could make a good Cast bullet. Wouldn't that be interesting.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 23 July 2009

Stephen Perry wrote: Probably could shoot 1/4” 100 yd groups with it if I could make a good Cast bullet.  

Looking forward to seeing those 1/4 inch 100 yd aggs.

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Pat

I have a fester that I can shoot cast bullets as well as I can shoot jacketed on paper. I am concerned with agg's mainly. You need to shoot some 1/4” groups to make the agg your looking for. I am a Pope and Mann disciple and have a feel for atmospheric conditions while I am shooting especially for wind direction change, velocity and acceleration. I read mirage if it is profound enough.

I feel we are all a bit scientific in our approach to shooting, like George and Ed. I do not relate well to obstructionists that either change a subject or attempt to dilute  the main thrust of a subject. Also men of courage like Isaac Newton set out to rediscover Mother Natures theories of fundamental motion which all generations claim for their own. Newton is the best cast bullet shooter of our generation whether he is here in body or not. But even he had to build on some of the great Greek, Arab, and Chinese Mathematitions and Scientists of generations since gone.

End of BS- Basic Science.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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JetMech posted this 24 July 2009

"I have a fester that I can shoot cast bullets as well as I can shoot jacketed on paper"

That's the challenge in a fine shooting rifle. Produce a projectile and load that will match or exceed jacket performance. Older rifles can produce better accuracy with cast than jacketed because we can match the bullet to throat and barrel dimensions.

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Bill

I just paid for a Lyman AA 20x scope on e-bay. This was also my first BR scope back in the 70's. This will be dedicated scope for Cast. I always move scopes around so it has no home now. Nothing says you can't compete with Cast in the NBRSA.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 25 July 2009

Well...let's put the rubber to the road and run some lead bullets down range. Post your results as I'm always interested in hearing how others do. Wind in cast bullet shooting is at least 4x harder than jacketed shooting.

There's no special moulds out there. Any good Eagan, NEI or Lyman mould will make good bullets. Fit them to the throat and a mid range powder that gives 1900 fps will work.

.30 caliber moulds are easier to find and work with an 7mm or 6mm moulds. (just my observation) Also 11 inch twist to 14 inch twist rates work for the .30's. (again my observation)

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

You guys are good with your bullets no doubt on my side. Shooting at 200 in similar conditions is a minimum 4 times more diificult no matter what slug you throw down there. When wind and mirage max out at 90 deg flag shots aimed at the edge of a NBRSA target can leave the other side. Shot this at the 1997 Phoenix Nats shooting 10 shot groups. 2” penalty for all shots outside the border.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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tturner53 posted this 10 November 2009

I ran across an interesting article in an old TFS magazine. The author proposed that if you want to know the potential accuracy of a gun with cast bullets first try Sierra Match Kings of a similar weight to your cast bullet if possible. He also suggested using the powder charge you intend to use, not including very low power or squib loads. His point was if it'll shoot the SMKs well then it can do as well with a cast bullet. He also proposed that almost  any rifle that won't shoot the SMKs probably has a problem, and this is a good way to sort that out before you try cast bullets, kind of a bench test for the gun. Prove the gun with SMKs and then go to your cast bullets. Makes sense to me, just thought I'd pass that along, I've asked that question here myself, 'what can I expect from...?' I guess he's just eliminating a variable, using a known accurate bullet, to check a gun out. No doubt there's lots of cases where this wouldn't or couldn't apply. I think I'll load some up to single load in my 30-30 M94 just for grins. Might be interesting. Maybe put a big scope on there too. What the hell?

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JetMech posted this 10 November 2009

That's interesting, Tim. I'm about done with a 1903A3 that has a NOS barrel I got from Bill Warner. I was thinking of breaking in the barrel with some 180gn MKs I have sitting around. I was taught to use the heaviest bullet available, using a slow powder, shooting a minimum charge. I guess I'll see how they do on paper.

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roosterf106 posted this 20 March 2010

It may sound ridiculous, but I have a scoped Model 99 Savage carbine, 20” barrel, weighs in around 6 1/2 pounds, caliber 25-35 which shoots 1.25 MOA with an RCBS 120 grain gaschecked bullet using 10 grains of 4759. Totally unexpected results from this old gun. I am still speechless when I think of it. Haven't yet chronographed it, but it's pretty slow, perhaps 1500 fps, maybe less.

My 1903 Springfield will shoot 1.75 MOA, on a clear day with good sunlight and if my tired ol' eyes are clear, using Frank Marshall;s old load of 21 gr 4759 with a Lyman 311284 sized .310. That runs 1730 fps on Chrono.

I consider these to be very accurate with cast bullets. I can't see how they could get a lot better.

I also have a .222 Rem in Model 788 bolt action that shoots Lyman's old, obselete 225450...a 49 gr bullet that will shoot Reloader 7 into a 1.5MOA group. Can't recall the powder charge.

Takes a lot of work and experimentation to find these loads, (years) but that's the fun of it.

Best wishes,

Rooster

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Canuck Bob posted this 22 April 2010

I'm new to the group and have yet to cast my first bullet. I'm returning to shooting sports after many years. I'm waiting for delivery of a Ruger No.1A in 303 British.

My definition of accuracy is the first shot hits the POA from a cold barrel.

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